Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

AVBunyan said:

1. Amen and amen

2.Oh, I like this. Also FreeGrace2 I'd like to see how the saint, in his own power, can undo what a might God asalready done.

The reason these folks will not answer this is because the average saint today has no heavenly idea what heppened to them doctrinally when they got saved.

God bless

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So true….unfortunately.

Albion said:

Or you cannot appreciate the fact (as so many cannot) that words often have a variety of meanings or shadings of meaning. "Believe" means to give one's assent to a proposition.

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Here's the proposition from God: "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Or, "those who behold and believe in the Son may have eternal life". When hearing these propositions, one either believes the proposition, or they do not believe the proposition.

Those who believe the proposition are saved and given eternal life.

Faith is having a relationship with God. You don't have that relationship in the absence of believing in him, of course, but that doesn't make mere intellectual assent into Saving Faith.

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The Christian life STARTS with faith in Christ. That's where the relationship begins. That is saving faith; faith in Christ.

And there is nothing "mere" about understanding and believing God's propositions relating to salvation and eternal life.

This is not so hard to understand, but I see that "outsidethecamp" didn't follow it either, so don't feel alone.

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I don't feel alone. How silly of one to think that I do.

I said this:
"Now, that's an amazing statement, given the answer of Paul to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be SAVED. Acts 16:30

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE SAVED." Acts 16:31

Either Paul lied, or your view is dead wrong."

sparow said:

It is possible to lie even when one tells the truth.

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Uh, how is that possible? Please clarify.

The problem I see here is more to do with semantics; this statement does not tell a person how to be saved unless that person is able to extrapolate “believe on” to the whole word of God. If the jailer was a Jew then the advice should have been “make the way straight” and Jesus’ teaching would have been helpful in doing that.

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No one can "make the way straight" to be saved. That never has been the gospel message. There is no trusting or believing in that message.

I said this:
"All of this is refuted by the simple fact that eternal life is a gift from God, received by faith in Christ and is irrevocable."

Matthew Twentyfour said:

False prophets makes false claims regularly. Proving it shows credibility. What say you?

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I already did. See above.

Where does the bible say eternal life is irrevocable? Certainly not Romans 11:29, that's about blessings and a promise made to the Jews.

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Rom 11:29 is about both God's calling and God's gifts. Ch 11 is about God's calling to Israel. The gifts of God were previously DEFINED by Paul in several places: spiritual gifts in 1:11, justification in 3:24 and 5:51-17, and eternal life in 6:23.

To deny that Rom 11:29 excludes either justification or eternal life is preposterous. There are no gifts mentioned in ch 11, which is about God's calling to Israel.

No one has been able to show that Paul wasn't thinking of eternal life when he noted that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

Children of God don't sin. I doubt you're perfect. Illiterate maybe but not sinless.

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From your statement, do you sin? Please don't forget what 1 John 1:8 says.

I said this:
"There are NO verses that teach that loss of belief equals loss of salvation. That is a fallacy. Unsupported by Scripture."

Matthew Twentyfour said:

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For how can those who abandon their faith be brought back to repent again? They were once in God's light; they tasted heaven's gift and received their share of the Holy Spirit;5 they knew from experience that God's word is good, and they had felt the powers of the coming age. 6 And then they abandoned their faith! It is impossible to bring them back to repent again, because they are again crucifying the Son of God and exposing him to public shame.

Rev 2:16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

Rev 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

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Funny, none of these verses says that salvation can be lost. I understand that the insecurity crowd thinks that's what these verses mean, but they sure don't say that.

otoh, Paul defined justification (Rom 3;24 and 5:15-17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God before he noted that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29, which proves that none of the above verses CAN mean that salvation can be lost.

MikeEnders said:

If you go by that then your take on the passage would be dead because Paul says he didn't think what he wrote in that passage even applies to the people he was writing it to.

"Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case--the things that have to do with salvation"
Hebrews 6:9

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I disagree. Salvation has a much broader meaning than what you are ascribing to it. And what "has to do with salvation", but keeping the faith and enduring unto the end (of your earthly life). Not turning back, becoming faithless, and hardened in your heart, outright rejecting Christ and blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Just to be clear. I am not talking about the things that keep Christians from being filled and controlled by the Spirit of Christ. Some of these things are:

Defiling the temple of the Spirit. (I Cor. 6:19,20)
Resisting the Spirit. (Acts 7:51)
Quenching the Spirit. (I Thess. 5:19).
Grieving the Spirit. (Isa. 63:10), (Eph. 4:30).
Lying to the Spirit. (Acts 5:3).
Testing/Tempting the Spirit. (Acts 5:9).

But be careful regarding the aforementioned things as sin will harden your heart.

Apostatizing from the faith, by those who were once enlightened and were made partkers of the Holy Ghost by:
Insulting the Spirit. When a Christian stands against the Savior he has received and apostatizes from faith in Jesus Christ, he is obviously not controlled by the Spirit, and this activity is an "insult to the Spirit of grace" (Heb. 10:29).
Blaspheming the Spirit. Attributing Christ's activity to that of Satan (Mark 3:22-30) is never the controlling activity of the Holy Spirit, for the Spirit always glorifies Christ (John 16:14). To speak against the Spirit of God and blaspheme Him is unforgivable (Matt. 12:32).

Unbelievers cannot fall away, only Believers can. When a Believer apostatizes and becomes and Unbeliever, there is no security for him.

This verse has to be explained away for OSAS to stand.
Heb_6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

There is only one "heavenly gift" and it is the Person of Jesus Christ.

And, as I showed before, OSAS as understood today, is not what Calvinists in the past believed. Not Calvin, not Pink, not Hodges.

Albion said:

Oh, no, it doesn't.


To each his own, I suppose, but how the difference between being saved by a relationship with the one who paid the price for our sins and, on the other hand, thinking we must earn our salvation by our own works...

...seems to me to be ANYTHING BUT a triviality.

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Who is talking about "earning" salvation? Can you direct me to that post?

AVBunyan said:

1. Ever bother to read the next verse? No? Ok I'll show it to you: 11, And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. Paul said they were those people till they got saved. You see friend God looks at the saint positionally and so does Paul. In God's eyes a saint can do those things but he is not one of those things - he is a saint. You have no understanding of positional truth.

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No, Paul said to them, "be not deceived", he was not talking to a fictitious person of the past. He was telling them not to be "deceived". The context is so plain. The next verse after does not change the warning.If i said to a person who was a believer and then they fell into , lets say having sex with their fathers wife ( 1 Cor 5) that if they do such things they will not inherit the kingdom and then they think its ok and are deceived, I may say to them after, you were cleansed of sin and justified. But that doesnt negate the fact that they are in danger now as the man was in sin in 1 zcor 5. Also Paul warned them that some of them were in drunkeness in the supper 1 Cor 11, this sin would exclude them from the kingdom according to Paul. And yes all sin begins with unbelief in the heart. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. But If they fell into such sins they were in trouble and would be deceived if they thought they would enter the kingdom. yes there are some who were in those things and were clean, But the warning is still for all not to fall back into them. We see the same warning to Christians in Galatians

" Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?...9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump....19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5)

Such sins will cause a person to go to the lake of fire as scripture warns. No it is not by works that we get saved or lose it. But by an evil heart of unbelief. If a believer abides in Christ they will overcome the world 1 John 5, but f they are not overcomers by abiding in faith and walking in Christ light, then they will be overcome and be blotted out of the book of life as scripture clearly teaches.

Notice that he is talking to them, who were being hindered and they were warned if THEY do such things they will not inherit the kingdom.

AVBunyan said:

2. Dealing with these truths in the beginning of the tribualtion - the falling away is not a falling a way from truth and I wil not take the time here to expound what it is for you are blinded to those truths.

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You act like you know something here, but Paul said some shall depart from the faith in the last days also. How do you depart from the faith. Jesus said when he comes to the earth would he find faith?

AVBunyan said:

3. Judas was a devil John 6:70 - devils do not get saved.

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You are to be ashamed here , not rightly dividing the word of truth. Study to show thyself approved unto God.

Judas was once called a sheep by Jesus sent to the Lost sheep and he was given power to cast out devils etc. Judas also belonged to the father before he was given to Jesus John 17:6 . The section you quote in John 6 was near the end of Jesus ministry, not the beginning. Judas also later had Satan enter into him. Then Satan entered into him". As you tried to correct me for not reading the next verse I suggest you read the very next verse there,

"71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.: John 6:71

Notice the words, "that should betray him". This word "should" , is a future tense. He had not yet betrayed Jesus. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus in whom he once trusted. To "betray" means to go against the trust you once had. So if Judas had not yet betrayed Jesus then he was not in that place. Jesus seems to have been speaking prophetically, as God does at times, God said to Abraham that he made him the father of many nations even before he was actually. Jesus also said in John 17 that he finished the work that he was sent to do. But he had not gone to the cross yet. So was he speaking prophetically?

anyway, for the sake of your point, (which I have heard many many many times). Even if we could say that Judas was at that time a devil. He was not always so. he was once a familiar friend of Jesus whom he trusted, and he was an apostle, ( sent one of God) and a sheep of Jesus whom Jesus gives eternal life to. etc

AVBunyan said:

4. You privately interpret departing from the faith as losing salvation - who taught you that? You think a saint is free from being seduced, departing, etc.?

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The Some shall depart from the faith" is refering to those who were in the faith once. How can a man depart from faith if he is never in it?
To depart from faith is to not be in Christ, whatsoever is not of faith is sin, and Christ is not the minister of sin.if we abide in him we sin not 1 John 3:6, 9. To cast of faith can lead to damnation, as scripture says.

"11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith." 1 timothy 5:11,12)

also, to lack of faith is unbelief and we read

"1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling...8 Harden not your hearts, ...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God...13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:1-14)

so clear to the unbiased reader. This rebukes all OSAS and calvinist views. Also the sin of unbelief goes to the lake of fire in revelation.

AVBunyan said:

5. Again - doctrinally dealing with tribulation times where a faith/works set up is in place - Yes, I know you are clueless here - II Tm. 2:15

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What, your idea sounds clueless here. and you need to study. Faith/works set up in its place??

AVBunyan said:

6. Mercy - Paul is saying that if one is seeking to be justified by works then he has fallen from grace - He is not talking about a saint but a lost man seeking the law from justfication.

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Wrong again, Paul is talking to believers who were saved and being drawn back under the law for justification. they would fall from grace to do so and Christ would profit them NOTHING. Christ was profiting them with salvation and all good things. But to seek to be justified by the works of the law would negate that. Paul says to these people that he stood in doubt of them. Does that sound like a OSAS view or that he could have said they were ok?. He warned the same believers about sin also and not to be deceived and they would not enter the kingdom if they did such things. Paul was definately talking to the believers who had received the spirit by the hearing of faith and some were in danger of falling from grace ( or falling from salvation , for by grace are we saved).

This again is so clear I marvel at how you can miss it and twist things to try desperately to fit your false doctrine.

AVBunyan said:

Bottom line - you want to believe one can to lose your so you can stand before God and tell him what a fine fella you'ved been!

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No, I do not boast in my self. I can do nothing without Christ . God works in all believers to will and to do. God will make us perfect unto every good work to do his will. It is by grace through faith we are saved. And if we abide in faith then God works in us and that is how we overcome the world. So if a man is in wilful sin, he is not in faith, for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. You seem to be teaching sin for a believers whole life and that he can not get victory over it in Christ. You also misuncerstand that no true believer as I am will stand before God and say what a fine fellow I have been. You are in error in the way you try to trap me. And it traps yourself.

Jesus will say to you either away from me all ye that WORK iniquity, or well DONE my GOOD and faithful servant.

.

AVBunyan said:

If all those verses were dealing with a loss of salvation then they would conflict with the many verses in Paul that clearly support the security of the believer.

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no, they only conflict with your bias and false doctrine that has fastened itself to your mind.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

Than try this. Christ is the author and finisher of your faith. When are you born again? If you can't figure it out, it's because you're not born again.

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It really appears that you are unwilling to answer the question directly, which I find odd. You said that you only become a child of God when you are "transformed". You are transformed at death to a new body. Did you mean "regenerated?"

You are born again when you are born of the Spirit. That happens in this life, not the next - unless John was writing to physically dead people.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

Or try this one. How many OSASer do you know who can ask Christ for anything and receive it?

John 14:13-14
13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

Here's the answer. Only when you're born again will Christ give you everything you ask.

How many times have you had unanswered prayers?

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This is weird.

Are you saying that (a) all your prayers are always answered with a "yes"? Or (b) you are not born again ? (Because you haven't come to the end of your life yet)?

To answer your question: There are no unanswered prayers in my life. "No" is also an answer.

JLB777 said:

It's this kind of blatant dishonesty in rightly dividing the word of truth that has led to so much false doctrine such as OSAS.

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call me blatantly dishonest again because you can't study the bible to save your life and I'll hit the report button. Check the rules of this forum you are not allowed to call someone a liar particularly just because you don't like their views. Its your kind of inattention to studying the whole Bible that has led to many cults.

You honestly believe that enlightened

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Believe? I have PROVEN its not a word exclusively used of Christian by showing you The EXACT same word in John chapter one (used for Jesus enlightening the whole world believer and non beliver). Ignoring what God's word says elsewhere is YOUR usual nonsense (which is why you have yet been able to touch the passages in 1 john I have put before you five time or more!).

partakers of the Holy Ghost

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and what does that mean? Whatever you THINK or SAY it means? Unlike you I actually try and deal with ALL scriptures so let see how partaker of the Holy Spirit is used IN THE BIBLE (not 2,000 years later in church liturgy). If you are right and it can only be used in a sense applying to Christians then great I will switch to your point of view. No skin of my back.

First problem for you? The actual full phrase appears nowhere else as a reference to believers. Nowhere do we hear that partakers of the Holy spirit is another word for born again! SO we will have to look at "partakers" by itself and then Holy Spirit and in the NT it has multiple uses. It is true that in many cases the greek word "partake" and its base indicates sharing intimately in a thing but there are many exceptions that indicate that is not its only sense

Hebrews 1:9 (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Here it just means other people around you


Ephesians 5:7 (KJV)
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Here you can partake with sinners by just doing what they do - consistent with the Greek base word metecho - share or be associated with an experience or thing. You don't have to be personally intimate to them,

Hebrews 12:8 (KJV)
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Here it simply means sharing a common experience in this case chastisement

1 Corinthians 9:10 (HCSB)
10 Or isn’t He really saying it for us? Yes, this is written for us, because he who plows ought to plow in hope, and he who threshes should do so in hope of sharing the crop.

Here it means simply dividing something up so you each get a piece.

1 Corinthians 10:21 (KJV)
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Here you can simply sit and eat at table where idols are being honored and be partaking i the table of devils even if you don't adhere to demons

Revelation 18:4 (KJV)
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Here mere geography - just being close to sinners is used as partaking with them in their sins

So partake can mean to experience something, share in an experience, be connected to etc. Could people who had experienced gifts of the Holy Spirit, seen the Power of the Holy Spirit up close and personal in the first century together be described as being partakers of the holy spirit? Nothing of the word partake forbids it and fits right into the context of things that people had EXPERIENCED that would bring them to repentance.

Hanging the saved and lost argument on one phrase is kind of weak especially given the other uses of the word partake in the NT

Meanwhile anyone else notice how the "I can sin till the day I drop and still be a Christian" try to shoot down alternate studies on their allege proof texts but run like crazy from dealing with any of the passages in 1 john?

JLB777 said:

that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."…

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Amazing.....now he is even attempting to slice out sentences in passages because they show he is wrong

"37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

But thanks for reminding me of yet another passage you have been running from. Here Jesus says he will lose nothing NADA zip of what the father has given him but you say other wise. Contradict scripture much eh?

gigman7 said:

I just can't understand how some on here believe they never sin. We ALL sin. Thank God that doesn't lose my salvation because if it did, we would all be going to Hell.

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gigman I might have missed it in this long ole thread but who has been saying Christians never sin?

MikeEnders said:

gigman I might have missed it in this long ole thread but who has been saying Christians never sin?

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the deception of sin can harden our hearts as we continue n it, this can lead to an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God Hebrews 3. So it is also true that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. The only way to have victory over the world and to be an overcomer is to abide in Christ by faith. Then when we come to him by faith he works in our hearts and sheds his love and power in us, and every man that has this hope in himself purifies himself even as he is pure.

hope that helps

read 1 John 3:6 and 9 as well and share your thoughts on those verses.

outsidethecamp said:

I disagree.

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What you or I agree with or disagree with is immaterial to studying Hebrews 6. Hebrews 6 states point blank in verse 9 that the writer was CONVINCED that even though he was giving a warning it did not apply to the people he was talking to. So saying he was writing Christians so it proves the passage must be referring to real Christians will never work for you. It actually gets worse for your interpretation because the writer ......hold on to your hat....actually states that if it did apply to the Christians he was writing too God WOULD be UNRIGHTEOUS.

…9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints
Hebrews 6:

Its amazing what comes out when we don't cut off the rest of passages. if you were right about this teaching saved and lost why in the world would Hebrews claim that it would be unjust for them to be lost again? Thats a SERIOUS blow to your interpretation

LoveofTruth said:

hope that helps

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Nope not in the least because though I think you are sincere all you did was ignore the passages I referenced in 1 john and what they say. At best you are trying to negate one passage with another and thats not rightly dividing God's word

read 1 John 3:6 and 9 as well and share your thoughts on those verses.

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You must not be reading through the thread. I not only have read them - I was the one that brought them to this discussion and have shared my thoughts on them several times

Once again you post passages without saying how you understand them. I suspect this is because by not explaining you don't have to worry that someone will prove you wrong.

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How would a Christian lose their salvation if they can't sin? I suspect you can't think very well.

Plus if you even read the thread you would know some people teach a Christian can continue sinning on and on and never repent of anything and still claim salvation. that been discussed for like 15 pages. Maybe you need new reading glasses. Ive explained the passages (not hard they are pretty straightforward) several times.

MikeEnders said:

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."
1 John 3:9

and this

"We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them."
1 john 5:18

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The reason they will not [do not] continue to sin is because they freely choose to stop sinning!

They listen to and obey the Holy Spirit's promptings within their hearts and so they choose to do good. They do not listen to and obey the temptations of their flesh, the world, and the devil and so they do not choose to do evil.

Warnings to Believers:

James 4:7-8
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. NKJV

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? NKJV

Be a slave to God and His commandments and then at the time of death you will be approved to inherit [enter] eternal life.

Or:

Be a slave to your flesh's selfish desires, a slave to making yourself acceptable to others in the world, and/or to the devil's suggestions and then at the time of death you will not be approved to inherit [enter] eternal life.

It is up to us all to make our own choices. God forces no person to obey Him and God prevents no person from obeying Him. God forces no person to disobey Him and God prevents no person from disobeying Him.

1 Peter 5:5-11
“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, 7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you. 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But may the God of all grace, who called use to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. 11 To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. NKJV

When the devil devours a sinful believer, he spiritually owns him.The devil becomes this fallen away believer's father. John 8:44 This sinful believer has insulted the Holy Spirit of Grace and so the Holy Spirit leaves the heart/soul of the disobedient person. The Holy Spirit is given only to the persons who obey Him. He is taken away from the persons who disobey Him. Acts 5:32


1 Peter 1:22
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, NKJV


Example of a sin which causes the loss of salvation [loss of Holy Spirit's presence] for a believer:

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone [believer] does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

If a person denies the faith by sinning against God's commandments, he becomes an unbeliever. He will not be approved to enter [inherit] eternal life.

Unbelievers do not inherit eternal life. Fallen away believers are even worse than unbelievers. Fallen away believers will definitely not inherit eternal life unless they repent of their grievous sins before they die.

Jan001 said:

The reason they will not [do not] continue to sin is because they freely choose to stop sinning!

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Unfortunate for your position is the fact that you don't have the authority to change what God's word says to suit your misguided claims. There is no will not or do not the passage emphatically states in the greek "ou dynatai" Not possible. He CANNOT continue sinning.

This is the thing with anti OSAS people. They always claim OSAS adherents are twisting warning passages and then turn right around and add and change words in passages that are straightforward and clear in saying they are wrong.

the believer already made his choice when he told Jesus - I am yours. I don't want this sin. I don;t want to live in sin - Rescue me. The Lord honor that choice and puts a seed in him that cannot continue walking in sin without breaking him out of it. No matter how man times he falls down Jesus will rescue him and take him out.

the gospel you guys preach is that you can ask God to completely rescue you as YOUR CHOICE but he is not effective enough in his rescue to keep you from what you asked him to rescue you from.

Thats a WEEEEEAAAK salvation unworthy of my Saviour who didn't come to just give people fire insurance but to rescue them from their sin.