Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

“who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,” 2 Timothy 1:9

Is there anyone who doesn’t agree that at least the irrevocability of the “calling” of God is a fact assured us in Romans 11?

We have received a holy calling by God from eternity. It cannot be undone in time.


"For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39

Those things that cannot separate you from the love of God includes you - in case it got by you.

gigman7 said:

I'll ask again, who on here believes they have lost their salvation and been saved again?

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Since I have asked this twice and no one has answered, I'm assuming that everyone who says that OSAS is false believes they have lived a perfect life since becoming a Christian.

Marvin Knox said:

“who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,” 2 Timothy 1:9

Is there anyone who doesn’t agree that at least the irrevocability of the “calling” of God is a fact assured us in Romans 11?

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That would come from the insecurity camp.

We have received a holy calling by God from eternity. It cannot be undone in time.


"For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39

Those things that cannot separate you from the love of God includes you - in case it got by you.

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Amen!

gigman7 said:

Since I have asked this twice and no one has answered, I'm assuming that everyone who says that OSAS is false believes they have lived a perfect life since becoming a Christian.

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Either that, or they keep getting saved over and over again. Neither of which is taught in Scripture.

LoveofTruth said:

1. Peter confessed Jesus as the Christ the Son of God and by saying that he had salvation and was born again ( according to 1 John 4:15 and 1 John 5:1) and then he sinned and denied Jesus with a curse, and had to be converted again.

2. Paul tells the Galatians who once received the Spirit by the hearing of faith that they are fallen from grace and he stands in doubt of them, ( which doesnt sound like he gave them an eternal security doctrine) and he said "of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you. To have Christ formed in us is salvation again.

3. David was saved and sinned and the sin of murder even, and 1 John 3:15 says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Then David repented and said "restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, he even asked God to create in him a clean heart . This creating s the new creation in Christ.

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Easy enough if one rightly divides the word of truth.
1. This was prior to Calvary before Christ died for sins - You are still under a faith/works set up under the law. Nobody got saved prior to Calvary like one gets saved today. One is saved/justified today when he believes Paul's gospel found in I Cor. 15:1-5. The rioch young ruler had tokeep the commandments according to Christ himself. They were not regenerated prior to Calvary. Thyeir goal was to live according to the law so they could enter into the pphsical kingdom are be partakers of the resurrection.

2. Misinterpretation - Paul is sayinmg that if one were trying to justify himself by the law then he missed grace. This verse is notdealing losing salvation - it is dealing with how a man is seeking to be justified. Paul wrote Galatians t ocombat those who were seeking others to get justified by the law and then even after theyy get saved they were telling these saints you must keep the law for dsntifiation.

3. You are under the Mosaic law not in this age of grace. David was not regenerated (Tit. 3:5) nor was he permanently sealed by the Holy Spirit - nobody was in the OT. David was forgiven by God based upon his repentent heart - I was saved not by a repentent heart but by the blood of Jesus Christ. David was never made a new creature (not creation like all the modern versions change it to). This work did not come about till after Calvary.

God bless!

Let me ask you this? How do you know you still have YOUR salvation? Have you done enough to retain it? If you believe you can lose your salvation, how do you know if you are truly measuring up? Have you sacrificed enough? Where is the line?

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The line is where Paul drew it. At the end of his life he was able to say with confidence:

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing. ( 2Ti 4:7-8)

Earlier in his ministry he said:

Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. (Phl 3:8-15)

OSAS, in the light of Paul's urging, is the height of immaturity. If someone had said to Paul, "I'm saved. I don't have to do anything." I would not be surprised if Paul slapped him.

It is somewhat distressing to hear people say, "I am saved." when the apostle Paul, who suffered so much for the Gospel, would not say that until he was near death and could look back and find confidence in the works he had done that he had stayed the course.

Who do you know who has done as much as Paul? Yet multitudes have been taught that they need no nothing and have a guarantee of eternal life because they said a sincere sinner's prayer.

Hogwash.

Why do you think that the pagan would in which we live has such low regard for the church? It is because Christians do not live up to their Christianity. The divorce rate is as high in the Church as in the pagan world. Married pastors run off with their secretaries on a regular basis. TV ministers are multi-millionaires while people around the world starve. And they're all absolutely sure that they're saved and heaven bound.

What about someone who hasn't directly professed "I'm not following Jesus anymore.", someone who has just become in active in their faith? They may come to church every few weeks, say a blessing over the dinner table, but not much more than that. Again, if they can lose their salvation, where is the spiritual yardstick they need to consult?

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Paul offers you that "yardstick." I posted it for you. When you have done as much as Paul and can look back over your life and say "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. " You can call that a yard.

Without that yardstick, using the "OSAS rule", we can safely conclude that Hitler is worshiping before the throne right now because, as a youth, he was a saved, devout Christian.

FreeGrace2 said:

No, "never" does not mean "anymore". Unless words don't mean anything anymore.

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I believe you are right. It is not the same as the 5 foolish virgins. He is talking about religious people in Matt 7:23 who never knew Him and He never in

Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

gigman7 said:

Since I have asked this twice and no one has answered, I'm assuming that everyone who says that OSAS is false believes they have lived a perfect life since becoming a Christian.

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Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Falling away in Heb 6:6 is not the same as backsliding, or sinning. And, it is not about living a perfect life and you know that. It is about allowing sin to harden your heart to the point that one rejects and repudiates the Perfect Life. The one that hardens their heart to this point, eliminates the Perfect Life from their existence, hanging Him on the Tree of Termination (crucifying the Lord again).

outsidethecamp said:

Jim, answer is NO.

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That's how Zeke and I see it.


EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”

AVBunyan said:

Easy enough if one rightly divides the word of truth.
1. This was prior to Calvary before Christ died for sins - You are still under a faith/works set up under the law. Nobody got saved prior to Calvary like one gets saved today. One is saved/justified today when he believes Paul's gospel found in I Cor. 15:1-5. The rioch young ruler had tokeep the commandments according to Christ himself. They were not regenerated prior to Calvary. Thyeir goal was to live according to the law so they could enter into the pphsical kingdom are be partakers of the resurrection.

2. Misinterpretation - Paul is sayinmg that if one were trying to justify himself by the law then he missed grace. This verse is notdealing losing salvation - it is dealing with how a man is seeking to be justified. Paul wrote Galatians t ocombat those who were seeking others to get justified by the law and then even after theyy get saved they were telling these saints you must keep the law for dsntifiation.

3. You are under the Mosaic law not in this age of grace. David was not regenerated (Tit. 3:5) nor was he permanently sealed by the Holy Spirit - nobody was in the OT. David was forgiven by God based upon his repentent heart - I was saved not by a repentent heart but by the blood of Jesus Christ. David was never made a new creature (not creation like all the modern versions change it to). This work did not come about till after Calvary.

God bless!

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Hello, sorry you have too many errors to fully expound on here

but start with one verse

"12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,..." John 17:12)

before the cross this was said ( though not without it)


also the righteousness of God is revealed, being witnessed by the law and the prophets. Jesus said when men hunger and thirst after Righteousness, they shall be filled. Jesus is the righteounsess of God revealed. This was witnessed by the law and the prophets ( Romans 3)/ When men trust in Gods righteousness they are not trusting in their own and they are saved, after they repented that is. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness, Abraham had the Seed Christ in him as we all do. And if we are Christ's then are we Abrahams Seed Gal 3

MikeEnders said:

I'd suggest you deal with the texts I gave you which are part of God's word rather than picking and choosing what suits you

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You might want to reread your post, you said, "If you can't continue in sin how would you ever lose salvation?" Your implication is that a Christian cannot sin. This idea flies in the face of many passages of Scripture. I would submit that you are misunderstanding John.

Earth to Butch!. I made no claim. I quoted you the apostle John. you are being TOTALLY ridiculous. Go argue that the Bible shows a misunderstanding of itself. It, not me, says a born again person cannot sin. The greek tense indicates continuos action as in constantly practicing sin non stop. A real believer will stop repent, maybe fall down and get back up over and over again but they don't just say okay...I am going to go on sinning now forever and ever - why? because the experience of salvation means something , it changes you and makes you unhappy in a state of continuous sin. At some point a believer drops to his knees and repents even if he does so over and over again.

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So, you've redefined cannot to not continuously. That's convenient, so cannot doesn't mean cannot?

THis is not contrary to any other scripture. Stop playing around with God's word because it contradicts your own ideas.

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It seems to me that you're the one playing games with the word. The Bible says cannot, you said, not continuously.

Of course its made for a certain group and the certain group are all those who have been given to Christ by God. Theres no context issue. the meaning is clear within its context. you just don't like what the scripture says and want to run away from it. People ought to base their theology on what the Bible says but some people in this thread try to wave away what whole passages say so they can let their theology dictate what the Bible is saying.

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It is for all those who were given to Christ and who were they?

5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. (Jn. 17:5-6 NKJ)

They were the disciples. So to use this verse to attempt to support OSAS or Perseverance of the Saints is taking the passage out of context.

You would prove nothing while you run away for what God's word say, Nicen writings are hundreds of years after the first century church. You are not getting basic common sense. You cannot claim to know what you do not know and claiming you do is distortion and fabrication. We don;t have much writings from the early church so claiming the church rejected the teaching is just make believe land to claim you know.

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OK, so you have no argument for the evidence from the early church.

Quoting Origen, Augustine and Luther means nothing. they are not scripture and that leaves hundreds of years before them. now please get busy and explains these texts USING SCRIPTURE not blathering to show why they don't mean exactly what they say. Blathering and theologizing doesn't make verses go away

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So again you choose not to address the evidence.

"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
1 john 3:9

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him."
1 john 5:18

If you can't continue in sin how would you ever lose salvation? Further Jesus himself said no believer will be lost

"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."…
John 6

CLEAR.............AS..............DAY

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Do you understand world veiws and presuppositions. Posting passages of Scripture without explaining your understanding of those passages is useless. There is nothing to address unless you provide your understanding of the passage. You see I don't disagree with the passage, however, I will likely disagree with you understanding of the passage.

So, if we stop the games and ad hominems maybe we can get somewhere.

FreeGrace2 said:

Sorry you missed my YES answer.
How about let's remove those silly quotes around saved. If one is saved, then he is saved. Not "saved". Seems your sensibilities are offended by one of God's children doing such things.

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I use those "silly" quotes around your use of the word "saved" because the meaning you attach to the word is silly.


Are you saved if you go back to your sinful ways? No. God's children are not murderers, thieves, etc.

1Co 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And God said that even a person whom He had had been declared righteous, if he turns from his righteous ways and lives in sin, he will die.

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”

Do you have any idea what grace is all about?

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Obviously I have a much better idea than you.

Did Hitler ever believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life?

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Yes. He was a devout Christian as a youth and rebelled when his older brother died.

When one grasps the utter magnitude of God's limitless grace, one does not come up with these kinds of questions or examples. Did Christ die for ALL sins, or only the less offensive (to some) sins?

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Of course He died for all our sins. And by doing so He destroyed the power of death tho hold anyone forever. Everyone will be raised from the dead immortal and imperishable. (1 Cor 15:51-54) The GRAVE is what you are saved from because of Jesus death and resurrection.

Where you spend eternity is up to YOU.

(Rom 2:6-10) (God) will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good,

When I was a Protestant, I thought "saved" meant you were going to heaven. That's not what it means. It means you are saved from eternal, physical death and the destruction of your body which is the image of God. By His death and resurrection, Christ defeated the power of death to hold mankind. All will be raised; some to eternal life and some to the second death.

Crowns&Laurels said:

The Bible doesn't define a measure of faith or will needed for justification. Some people have strong faith and yet weak will, and some have good will and yet weaker faith.

The word 'can' is what is important. In the context of it being 'possible', or 'perhaps'. I think a lot of theology has made what is a personal thing a very general thing, and I think Martin Luther probably felt the same way. He didn't very much like the idea of doctrine being the judge of one's salvation.
In fact, Sola Fide seems to put it very simply- where many churches have expounded on it in their own fashion, Luther mainly wanted to convey that one's salvation is their own business between them and Christ and that bishops and doctrines can just go on somewhere else.

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Too bad Calvin didn't pick up on that when he was planting his TULIP.

AVBunyan said:

are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ and are sealed forever!

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Please show me the scripture where the believer is sealed forever.

AVBunyan said:

I chose to trust Christ's death, burial, and resurrection for my sins a long time ago and I'm going thru the tribulation in Christ seated in the heavenly places! Yahooooooooo!!!!

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As long as you continue to trust steadfast unto the end, then you will be saved...

some will take the mark and worship the beast.


as it is written - receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9


JLB

FreeGrace2 said:

What we are free to walk away from does not include salvation. We didn't save ourselves and we can't unsave ourselves. And no Scripture supports the idea that we can make a choice to rid ourselves of our salvation.

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*of course we can't save ourselves. as I posted earlier we are saved by (His) grace through (our) faith. we must confess with our mouths and believe in our hearts; therefore salvation is conditional on our accepting same. Nowhere does the Bible suggest anyone gets saved accidently or unknowingly. As stated earlier, accepting salvation is a conscious choice. logically anyone who chooses X may change their mind later. as stated earlier we are not automatons, we are independent entities with freedom to choose.

First, did you or anyone else sign a contract with God when you believed in Christ? No. Believing in Christ is NOT a contract in ANY sense of the word. And that isn't supported by Scripture. Let's stick with Scripture.

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again; is salvation forced on us? no, we had the choice to accept or reject.

Second, God has been and always will be in complete control of our salvation. It is His plan, btw. The free choice only has to do with whether we are going to "consent and obey" or "refuse and rebel" per Isa 1:19-20. There are consequences for both. And that is God's plan.

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so if a person one time 'consents and obeys' the rest of his life's decisions are irrelevant?
if God were in 'complete control' of everything He would stop all sin now. He is ABLE to control everything, but He allows us room to make mistakes, hoping we will turn things around. 'He did not treat us as our sins deserve'.

Before we imply anything, let' look at the context. The context is the Tribulation only. And the question is, saved from what? Context is king.

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okay, just for the sake of argument let's say this only applies to the tribulation time. is the principle not the same? if one doesn't endure til the end of the trib is salvation lost? might a saved person not choose to take the mark?

So you calling Samuel a liar, then?? I showed what Samuel told Saul about the "next day", that Saul would join Samuel. So, where would Samuel be the next day? Paradise.

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there are three places; Heaven, Earth, and the grave/sheol. sheol is divided into two parts, Abraham's Bosom, and Hades. there is a gulf but the places are close enough to communicate; remember the rich man calling on Abraham? Samuel is telling him that he will be in the grave, not on earth.

Believe it or not, the Bible is clear about our eternal security, regardless of how much we may fail. Grace covers more than we can fail. But it seems that is not believed by the insecurity camp.

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again, our salvation will not be removed by God, and it may not be affected by any outside force (demonic, human, etc.) since salvation is based on personal acceptance it is subject to subsequent personal rejection.
How about Ezekiel 18 which suggests that if a righteous man turns away from God his righteousness will not be remembered and we will die in his sins? how can a man be righteous without God?

Earlier I quoted Revelation in re; name being blotted out. I understand the Bible occasionally uses symbolism and whatever that litorate word was you used, but the meaning in this verse is so clear I can't accept that it signifies anything else than what it states.
Ex 32:33:
"And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

outsidethecamp said:

Falling away in Heb 6:6 is not the same as backsliding, or sinning. And, it is not about living a perfect life and you know that. It is about allowing sin to harden your heart to the point that one rejects and repudiates the Perfect Life. The one that hardens their heart to this point, eliminates the Perfect Life from their existence, hanging Him on the Tree of Termination (crucifying the Lord again).

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Having never been saved.

FreeGrace2 said:

What we are free to walk away from does not include salvation. We didn't save ourselves and we can't unsave ourselves. And no Scripture supports the idea that we can make a choice to rid ourselves of our salvation.

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Our belief/faith received Jesus Christ.

Our unbelief/faithlessness can reject Him.

. Dupe Post

Marvin Knox said:

Is there anyone who doesn’t agree that at least the irrevocability of the “calling” of God is a fact assured us in Romans 11?

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That depends on a few things. Are you Jewish? Are you a descendant of Jacob? Are you a member of the 144,000? Are you sure you understood Romans 11? The most likely answer is no because none of the 144,000 will turn to Christ and become Christians till the tribulation.

And since you're already a Christian, your answer is obviously no one agrees with you.

Marvin Knox said:

"For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39

Those things that cannot separate you from the love of God includes you - in case it got by you.

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And God will discipline everyone He loves. "For the LORD disciplines those he loves, and he punishes each one he accepts as his child." Hebrews 12:6 NLT

Marvin, someday when someone ask you "if God loves me, why am I in hell?"

Just tell them it's call tough love. God has a way of answering people with tough heads through tough love by putting people in hell temporarily so they don't end up in the lake of fire permanently.

Romans 2:5-9 NCV
5 But you are stubborn and refuse to change, so you are making your own punishment even greater on the day he shows his anger. On that day everyone will see God’s right judgments. 6 God will reward or punish every person for what that person has done. 7 Some people, by always continuing to do good, live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that has no end. God will give them life forever. 8 But other people are selfish. They refuse to follow truth and, instead, follow evil. God will give them his punishment and anger. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews.

It doesn't matter if you're a Christian or unbeliever, there's no salvation for the unrighteous. Five of the seven churches of Revelation 2-3 won't make it. Which one are you following?

gigman7 said:

Since I have asked this twice and no one has answered, I'm assuming that everyone who says that OSAS is false believes they have lived a perfect life since becoming a Christian.

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Someone did answer you. Just like Romans 11:29, it went over your head a few pages back.

LOL, j/k.

Marvin Knox said:

"I never knew you means I once knew you and I no longer know you."
Now that's "oxymoron mentality.

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Well, for once you have no problem understanding something.

Marvin,

How about this scenario. You raised a son up well. Did well in school, showed a lot of godly qualities, never had problems with the law, always helping others, etc.

At age 20, he left to be on his own. A few years later, he started hanging out with the wrong crowd. Starts using drugs, alcohol, smoking. Starts committing crimes, robbed a few banks, shoplifts regularly. Finally gets into a brawl and killed someone. Instead of going to the police, he comes back to you. Tells you everything he's done the last few years.

Do you still know this kid? He's your son. You knew him once. Do you know this new person he's become?

This sounds like the oxymoron relationship you've described doesn't it? OSAS won't get anyone out of this mess.

Romans 6:16 NLT
Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.

John 8:44 NLT
For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.