• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

'Once Saved Always Saved': Fact or Fiction?

  • Fact.

  • Fiction.


Results are only viewable after voting.
Status
Not open for further replies.

MikeEnders

Newbie
Oct 8, 2009
655
116
✟1,443.00
Faith
Calvary Chapel
In fact the absolute TRUTH of GOD is relative to how each one of us wants to perceive it, and working out our own salvation with fear and trembling is what we ARE CALLED to do...

Now THATS cultic. The absolute truth of God is relative to how each one of us perceives it eh? Nope. truth matters. Tired of people trying to pretend like truth isn't what Christianity is about. Message denied

NOT working out everyone else's so we can (play GOD) which by the way does nothing but cause us to be lifted with self pride that we can't even see when we attempt to venture into judgements about our fellow human beings that belong only to HIM....

Would that include you playing God telling people what they should and should not discuss? Always in these get on the soapbox moments the one person who is calling every one else full of self pride is the one with their chest out the furthest. They never fail to miss their own pride and judgment of others in the process of their pointless accusatory lecture.

Even when they are screaming with caps they miss themselves in the mirror
 
Upvote 0

Elionai

Newbie
Apr 13, 2011
92
21
Visit site
✟22,838.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

I voted fiction for the following reasons: and yes I realise these points has been made elsewhere in the thread.

  1. Because while I believe nothing can separate us from God's love, I realise that this is directional; from God to us.
    In the opposite direction, we can be VERY closed off to God's love even when we believe in Him. I also believe and know that believers can walk away from His love and end up doing things that utterly contradict a 'saved' life. This I believe is the instance in which the OSAS thinking is dangerous.
  2. Expert Bible teacher David Pawson has this to say on the subject:
    Another characteristic of false prophecy is to make light of the sin in God’s people, as if those who are the ‘elect’, the chosen of God, are eternally secure no matter what their moral or spiritual condition and will not be required to face personal suffering. The cliché ‘Once saved always saved’, a phrase which never occurs in scripture, encourages this kind of thinking. Jesus makes it quite clear that this is not the case. ‘He who stands firm to the end will be saved’ (Matt 10:22; 24:13). Apostasy, the public denial of Christ in word or deed forfeits future salvation. ‘But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my father in heaven’ (Matt 10:33). The book of Revelation takes the same line. The ‘overcomers’ will inherit the new heaven and earth but the ‘cowardly’ will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 21:7–8).
    - from chapter one of "When Jesus Returns" by David Pawson
One case where salvation is surprisingly not at risk is bad bible teaching. James, the head of the believing community in Jerusalem states that bad teachers will be the least in heaven. Now, I don't claim to know how that system will work in the Olam HaBa (the world to come/God's Kingdom in full) but I know from that passage their salvation is not at risk, just their, dare I say, 'rank' in the Kingdom.
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟426,311.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Please provide verses to support your theories.

Here are the verse's if scripture -

If they become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, and depart from God.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Our faith must continue steadfast unto the end.

If we depart from God in unbelief, then we no longer have the substance of the thing we are hoping for.

Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR...


Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrew 11:1

Faith is what you have, until you obtain the thing you are hoping for.

That is why in so many places we are warned about about falling into unbelief by becoming hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

This is what the scripture above teaches so clearly.

No faith = No salvation.

If we are not a part of Christ, then like the branches who do not abide in the Vine who is the source of life for the branches, then we will die.

Now it's up to you to prove from the scriptures that we have eternal life apart from Faith in Christ.


JLB
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
5,051
2,534
76
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟599,520.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Uh . . . that's not the RCC it's referring to.

It certainly isn't the Presbyterian or Baptist Church or any of those who sprung out of the Reformation. So who is it then if not the Church which was established under the authority of the Apostles and came to be called "katholicos" (universal) by the start of the second century?
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
5,051
2,534
76
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟599,520.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married

If your passages contradict other passages in the Bible, then there is a conflict, and therefore, someone has misinterpreted what is there. Given that the Church is the "pillar and ground" of the truth, I will go with the Church rather than some Johnny-Come-Lately Protestant assembly that just started 100 years ago.
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
5,051
2,534
76
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟599,520.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Salvation is a free gift. It is so free, so absolutely having nothing to do with anything that resembles "works" that it is even given to little children. Just like in the Old Covenant, the New Covenant offers the immense grace of God by bringing into the Kingdom those children of Kingdom members. Parents who are members of the Kingdom bring their babies to the baptismal font and through baptism, the child receives God's grace to be entered into union with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and be made a covenant member of the covenant Kingdom.

Such action on the part of God, without the slightest response from the baby, points to grace that is dependent upon nothing other than God's mercy. However, being saved in such a manner does not confer eternal life. It only gives the Holy Spirit as a downpayment:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

An "earnest" is a downpayment. It is not the full amount. It is part of the whole, given as a promise that if the conditions of the agreement are kept, the rest will be delivered sometime in the future. Our salvation is being delivered from the state of death and being put into union with Christ. But our free will is that we can choose, as with any marriage (which is the analogy used for our relationship with Christ) to walk away and be unfaithful to Him with another - sin.

The Parable of the Prodigal is instructive here. The Prodigal is a son. He has relationship with his father and is part of the household by birth, just as our new birth in baptism makes us part of God's household. But the Prodigal decides to turn his back on all that is his in his relationship with his father and seek that which he thinks will really bring him happiness.

Does he stop being a son? No. Is there still an inheritance waiting for him when he returns? Yes.

But what if he never returned? What if he died in the pigstyes he was tending? Would he then receive the inheritance of his father, the money that his father still had and would give to him? Of course not. And this is analogous to our relationship with Christ Jesus. We have an inheritance ( 1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,). it awaits all the sons and daughters of the family - providing that they remain faithful and not leave the household of faith.

A simple covenant principle: Obedient children receive inheritance. Disobedient children are disinherited.

Salvation unites one to Christ, saves one from the world and its influence, makes one an inheritor of the kingdom promises, and gives the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, as the One who can help us through our weaknesses into the kingdom. Eternal life is the inheritance. We have the downpayment now...we get the full amount at the Judgement Seat.
 
Upvote 0

MikeEnders

Newbie
Oct 8, 2009
655
116
✟1,443.00
Faith
Calvary Chapel

Hail Mary....

by that rationale a cult that is one for a thousand years is better than one that is one for the last 50. Truth is determined by whats in the Bible not by a historically verifiable and proven corrupt institution be it Catholic or protestant.
 
Upvote 0

Near

In Christ we rise
Dec 7, 2012
1,628
285
✟31,654.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Is there any verses in the NT about losing the Holy Spirit? No, there are not. And Jesus said that no one ( meaning no person, which would include even the believer, who is a person) can snatch a believer from God's hand.
It doesn't follow that since there are no explicit verses in the NT about losing the Holy Spirit, therefore one cannot lose the holy spirit.

Right. We're marked for what? The day of redemption. And the seal is a pledge or PROMISE.
It doesn't follow that since we're marked for the day of redemption, we cannot be unmarked.

We're not talking about physical seals, either those of the ancient world, or by today's standard. God has sealed those who believe with the Holy Spirit as a mark for the day of redemption. This is a promise of redemption. This is eternal security.
If we're not talking about physical seals, the rational behind thinking sealed means forever shut, done deal, is thrown out the window. You're begging the question.

No one has yet proven this theory from Scripture. Salvation includes regeneration, being born again, being a new creature. How does that all just go away? It doesn't.
If salvation includes regeneration, being born again, and being a new creature; that all goes away through apostasy.
The following describes a person who was regenerate:
Hebrews 6:4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you think "gift of faith" is not in Romans, and faith is a gift from God. Your belief that God's gifts are irrevocable are limited to the epistle of Romans, and gifts mentioned outside of Romans are revocable? Such as faith? I still see no reason to think that God's gifts to us cannot be lost. If we discard a gift, the giver of that gift hasn't really taken it back, but it is discarded nonetheless.
Since you're limiting Romans 11:29 to apply only to the book of Romans, why not narrow it down even more?
Specifically to the context of Romans 11 itself. If you read Romans 11 you'll notice that the verse we've mentioned refers to the salvation of Israel.
In terms of faith through salvation:
Pual Speaking to the Gentiles about the Jews:
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off

What do you believe Paul refers to when he says we can be cut off?
I think it's obvious: salvation.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Secondly, the gift is eternal life in Christ Jesus.
John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
If we choose not to abide in Christ, we don't have the guarantee of salvation. Salvation is only for those in Christ, not those who depart from him.

Lastly: Those who do not have faith will be sent to hell,

Rev 21:
5And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.8But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

It doesn't say anywhere in the bible that you can be saved while denying Christ. It actually says, the faithless will go to hell.
FURTHERMORE:
1 John 3:15
15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Therefore, a once saved person who begins to hate his brother does not have eternal life.
 
Upvote 0

SinnerInTheHands

Troubled Christian
Jul 17, 2015
824
332
USA
✟25,255.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single

Uh . . . it's the church catholic [with lowercase "c"]. Also known as the "communion of saints," "the bride of Christ," "the Christian Church," "the universal church," "the body of all believers," "the flock of God," &c., &c. It's the collection of all living believers in Christ on Earth, also known within my tradition as the elect [all the saved].

I should also note that the Eastern Orthodox also were called catholic by the beginning of the second century.
 
Upvote 0

gigman7

Young at heart
Jan 2, 2013
187
8
Tennessee
Visit site
✟22,867.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
. . . through baptism, the child receives God's grace to be entered into union with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and be made a covenant member of the covenant Kingdom.
This is 100% incorrect. Water baptism is only a followup to salvation.

Most of the time baptism is mentioned in the Bible it is talking about spiritual baptism.
 
Reactions: Tellastory
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,730
USA
✟184,847.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
There is nothing in Eph 1:13-14 about any condition on our part, other than believing what we heard. Let's not add to the Word.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,730
USA
✟184,847.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:29

Eternal life is not mentioned in this verse.
This argument is pointless. Paul had ALREADY defined eternal life (Rom 6:23) and justification (Rom 5:15-17) as gifts of God. So why would he have to repeat himself in 11:29? There is NO REASON. Having already defined these as gifts of God, and the VERY NEXT TIME he mentions "gifts" is 11:29, it is QUITE OBVIOUS that he meant justification and eternal life.

btw, those who reject that Rom 11:29 refers back to justification and eternal life, the burden of proof on them to prove that Paul meant something else. So where ELSE did Paul mention gifts between 6:23 and 11:29? He didn't.

Also, one would need to prove that Paul was specifically excluding both justification and eternal life from 11:29, if he was. So where is that proof?

The calling to salvation continues to be available to those who do not believe, however they must believe in order to be "grafted back in".
Why ignore the "gifts" part of 11:29? If they do not refer back to specifically what Paul defined as God's gifts, then what are these irrevocable gifts? The offer or calling to salvation only covers the "calling" part of 11:29. It does NOT cover the 'gifts' part.

Your view suggests that they can not be broken off in the first place, which grossly violated the context.
Where does Paul exclude eternal life from 11:29. The part about being broken off has NO MENTION of "gifts", so doesn't apply to 11:29 at all.

 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,730
USA
✟184,847.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
OSAS does NOT have to teach that you can do anything and be a believer on your way to heaven , Its that you won't continue to live in unrepentant sin if you really are saved.
The Bible is quite clear about people not continuing to believe. Otherwise the warnings to continue to believe are meaningless. The point of the NT is that believers are not supposed to continue to live in unrepentant sin. That's why the warnings: to warn of severe discipline from the Lord in time, and loss of reward in eternity.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,730
USA
✟184,847.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
A seal can be broken.
Except the passages about the Holy Spirit being a seal isn't about a physical seal that is designed to be broken. And the sealing by the Holy Spirit is a pledge (read that PROMISE) for the day of redemption. It couldn't be more clear. God seals the believer WHEN they believe with the Holy Spirit as a promise for the day of redemption.

None of these so-called "proof-texts" demonstrates that the Holy Spirit as a seal can be broken. Not even close.
 
Upvote 0

MikeEnders

Newbie
Oct 8, 2009
655
116
✟1,443.00
Faith
Calvary Chapel

read what you are responding to. You can adhere to OSAS and believe that believers continue to believe. The warnings are perfectly sensible in an OSAS framework because the church groups always has people in it that are not truly saved.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,730
USA
✟184,847.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
None of these verses says anything about loss of salvation. So, where are the verses that support your theories?

Now it's up to you to prove from the scriptures that we have eternal life apart from Faith in Christ.
JLB
First, you've never proven that salvation continues ONLY AS LONG as faith continues. What verses say that?

Second, since eternal life IS a gift of God, along with justification, and God's gifts are irrevocable, that's prove enough.

What hasn't been proven is that Paul didn't include eternal life from Rom 11:29 where he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,730
USA
✟184,847.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
It doesn't follow that since there are no explicit verses in the NT about losing the Holy Spirit, therefore one cannot lose the holy spirit.
Good heavens!! Of course it follows. In fact, there are NO verses anywhere about losing the Holy Spirit in the NT. Jesus Himself promised the Holy Spirit would come and be with us forever.

It doesn't follow that since we're marked for the day of redemption, we cannot be unmarked.
If one reads the entire context, we are marked or sealed with a promise. Is your view that God breaks His promises? HUH?

If I'm understanding you correctly, you think "gift of faith" is not in Romans, and faith is a gift from God. Your belief that God's gifts are irrevocable are limited to the epistle of Romans, and gifts mentioned outside of Romans are revocable?
It seems that the concept of "context" isn't quite clear to some. Paul defined both justification (5:15-17) and eternal life (6:23) BEFORE he wrote 11:29 about God's gifts being irrevocable. He mentioned no other gifts before 11:29. He did mention "spiritual gifts" in 1:11. So let's include them as well, ok? Since these are the ONLY gifts he specifically mentioned, why should anyone reject any of these gifts as being what Paul was referring to in 11:29?
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟426,311.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

Your "theory" refuses to recognize the basic foundation precepts of faith.

If you have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then you yourself are hoping for salvation.

Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR!!! Hebrews 11:1'

We are saved (past tense) by faith.

We are not saved as if we have obtained the salvation we are hoping for, but rather we are saved by faith...

I guess no one has ever explained this simple elementary truth to you before.

All the lexicon Greek gymnastics isn't going to change the definition of faith.

Faith is the evidence of things NOT SEEN.

We don't hope for something we already have.

Just read the plain words of Paul about this subject.

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24-25

We who were saved, have the hope of salvation and are eagerly waiting for it.


JLB
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,730
USA
✟184,847.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
read what you are responding to.
Huh? Of course I have been.

You can adhere to OSAS and believe that believers continue to believe.
I do believe that believers can continue to believe. But I also believe what Jesus specifically said about the second soil; "they believed FOR A WHILE, and in time of testing, fell away". Why shouldn't everyone believe what He said?

The warnings are perfectly sensible in an OSAS framework because the church groups always has people in it that are not truly saved.
The warnings are ALL based on works, or effort. Is your view that one must work for salvation, or that salvation requires effort on your part?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.