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Once Saved Always Saved - advice please

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salamacum

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Hello there,

I have to do a quick presentation on "The Perseverance of the Saints"

OK, I know this is a favourite protestant controversy - there is now an alternative - "Lordship Salvation"

Anyway, can followers of the Ancient Way tell me what the opinion of the early church and Orthodox Church is on this topic.

How easy is it to lose one's salvation?
 

Protoevangel

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A while ago, I had a coworker/friend ask me what the Orthodox believed about the idea of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved - "They whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved."). I explained that the concept was nonsensical to the Orthodox. He said that the question he likes to ask people who don't believe in OSAS is: "If you died today, would you be go to heaven?". I smiled and said that I have a sure hope in God's love and mercy. He asked what I meant by that, and I offered to send him an email explaining it in more detail.

I composed my email and sent it to my priest for approval. He approved it, so I sent it to my friend. He never replied, or questioned me about it again, although our relationship stayed very warm and brotherly.

Here is the email I sent him:

Greetings in the name of our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Glory to Jesus Christ forever! Amen!

We were going to discuss the doctrine that I believe you called, "Once Saved, Always Saved", it has also been called by other names, such as "Eternal Security", and "Perseverance of the Saints". It is my position that this is a false doctrine that can lead to error and false security.

Like I told you, I have had a couple of false starts regarding the opening of this discussion. One attempt at a start began with terminology. One began with history of the opposing doctrines. I do believe that the first and best opening however, is to use Holy Scripture itself. If any misunderstanding occurs, we can always straighten them out when and if they arise. I do not intend this first email to be comprehensive or to "settle the matter" if you will, but instead, simply to be an opening to our dialog.

First, let us consider a passage from the Old Testament:
Ezekiel 3:18-21
18 When I say to the wicked, 'You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul."
One may ask, exactly who the "righteous man" is. I think the context of the passage makes that quite clear. If there is any question, we can look at the Hebrew. The word, transliterated from Hebrew is "tsaddiyq", and means just, lawful, righteous (as in conduct), and/or justified and vindicated ("saved") by God. The righteous man is the man in right relationship with God. For no one, at any time, is, has been, nor will be, righteous by their own works before God. For Solomon tells us in Ecclesiastes 7:20, " For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin."

Next, I would like to look at a couple of passages from the New Testament:
1 Corinthians 9:26-27
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Paul tells us here, that he runs for an imperishable crown (cf: Rev. 2:10 – i.e. Final Salvation). He does not run with uncertainty, but he does acknowledge that without discipline, he can disqualify himself from receiving the prize.
Galatians. 5:2-4
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Who is Paul here speaking? He is speaking to the Faithful of Galatia, who are being tempted to turn away from the Gospel to the false Gospel of the Judaizers. This is laid out in the beginning of the Epistle. To have "fallen from grace", the fallen must have once been a partaker of that grace which is truly the very essence of salvation.

And finally, I will mention:
Rev. 2:10-11
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."'
"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life ." says Christ. The same crown Paul speaks of to the Corinthians. "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." Christianity is a commitment and a life, not a one-time decision.

Other clear supporting verses would include, Matthew 10:22; Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 6:9-10; Hebrews 3:12-15; James (the whole Epistle); 1 John 2:15-17; and Revelation 2:5, among many others.

You said that when you hear someone deny OSAS, you like to ask them something like, "if you died today, would you be saved?" This kind of question may catch a Catholic or JW, but it is nonsensical for an Orthodox. The Orthodox answer would probably be something like, "I have my sure and firm hope in the mercy of God". This in no way, though means that the Orthodox believe in OSAS. One thing any man is always capable of is apostasy and turning away from and rejecting the gift that God freely bestows. If I died today, would I be saved? My hope is in God's mercy. I have done nothing to earn that Salvation... In fact, all too often I have, in effect, thumbed my nose at it, and had I continued down one of those paths, I believe I could have lost that Salvation that God gave me freely. If one who is "saved" (in right relationship with God), begins trusting in their own works for their Salvation, or if they reject and walk away from the Faith completely, they may indeed loose their Crown of Life, and have their names erased from the Book of Life.

I have heard the argument that if one falls, they were never saved in the first place. This is a doctrine of man, and finds no sure support in Scripture, and is in fact, flatly denied by Paul's Epistles, and even Christ Himself (see the verses addressed above).

The Orthodox know God as a loving and merciful father. He has done everything to bring us from darkness into light. God sets before us both blessings and curses and then urges us to choose Him "... I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days ...." (Deuteronomy 30:19-20) God is 100% on our side regarding Salvation. He does not take pleasure in the death of anyone; He always desires that we turn from sin and live! But He never forces Himself on anyone, either before, or after we initially accept Him into our hearts. Paul tells us, " Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. " (Romans 8:37-39), but notice, one thing Paul does not list among these things that cannot separate us from God, is our own hardheartedness and obstinacy.

So you see, salvation is not a once-for-all "get out of hell free card", but neither is it a "on again, off again guessing game". Salvation is the process whereby the faithful are delivered from the curse of sin and death, to union and right relationship with God through Christ, and the process of healing and growth of the believer in Christ, whereby the believer is made holy as God is holy, through our cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, and participation in the sacramental life of the Church.

In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, one God, now and forever. Amen.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I knew that first posting couldn't be the end of it. My orthodox priest friend (who knows little English) was able to say "We have been saved, we are being saved, we will be saved"

this is very true for us, because Scripture puts salvation in past, present, and future tenses. the Book of Revelation says that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, we were saved when Christ died and rose again, we were saved when we were baptized, we are told that we are to work out our salvation with fear and great trembling, and we are told that we are nearer now to our salvation then when we first believed, and if we persevere to the end we shall be saved. so yeah, salvation is a process.

How easy is it to lose one's salvation?

that depends on who is the one losing it. but there are people throughout Acts and recorded in 1st Timothy who do fall away and follow Satan. so it's possible.

remember that it is he who perseveres unto the end shall be saved, not he who is saved perseveres unto the end.
 
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salamacum

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< < This in no way, though means that the Orthodox believe in OSAS. One thing any man is always capable of is apostasy and turning away from and rejecting the gift that God freely bestows. If I died today, would I be saved? My hope is in God's mercy. I have done nothing to earn that Salvation... In fact, all too often I have, in effect, thumbed my nose at it, and had I continued down one of those paths, I believe I could have lost that Salvation that God gave me freely. If one who is "saved" (in right relationship with God), begins trusting in their own works for their Salvation, or if they reject and walk away from the Faith completely, they may indeed loose their Crown of Life, and have their names erased from the Book of Life. > >

I go along with this. (But who am I?)
What I want to deal with as well is whether lack of sanctification or even lack of desire for sanctification (or the desire to have the best of both worlds, which must plague the conscience of most Christians), can cause us to not to be saved.
Many (protestant) Christians I know live in a grey funk of an uneasy conscience, as they think themselves often more plagued by temptation that even unbelievers, and have nothing else to rely on but the demonstrated and certain mercy of God in Christ.
Is this the Perseverance of the Saints?

Some aspects of Orthodoxy do seem to me to offer little by way of assurance.
My priest friend urged me to consider the most holy and sanctified person alive. Such a man would consider himself the most likely not to be saved whilst the most apparently careless and wicked unbeliever would be accepted by God before him.

Again, in the film "The Island", the hero, Anatoly, receives no assurance and peace, despite being in a monastery for 30 years, until he recieves forgiveness from the one he had offended. Is our walk with God so empty of peace?

Do I want that? Does God truly offer so little?
 
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Christos Anesti

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Do I want that? Does God truly offer so little?

In the movie I believe that was supposed to have taught him humility and the importance of constant tears and repentance. To cry out with the Psalmist:

"Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me
Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in thy sight: that thou mayest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest." -Psalm 51
 
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rdhosken

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The popular Evangelical doctrines of "once saved always saved" predestination, "sola fide," "sola Scriptura" and "the priesthood of every believer" may attract lots of new converts, but because these ideas appeal to human ego, they often lead to presumption and pride which in turn lead to a downfall. How many Evangelical pastors, missionaries and parachurch leaders do you know of who have fallen into grievious or mortal sins such as adultery, extortion, homosexuality, misappropriation of funds, or gluttony? I can name at least half a dozen whom I've known personally. But does their denomination or organization excommunicate them, or even just remove them permanently from leadership, as the Early Church did? Most often not: "Well, Joe, once you're saved you're always saved, so we'll just counsel with you a few months and then you can get back into leadership." Or the errant leader simply quits that "church" and starts a new one. What a horrible message this communicates to rank-and-file members! "If he can get away with it, then so can I - let's do it, sweetie-pie!" So there is a need for some kind of authoritative structure, some sort of ecclesiastical control. Just as the Early Church did, the Orthodox Church today can and does remove priests, bishops, metropolitans and even patriarchs who fall into gross sin or heresy, and they may not be allowed to serve again.
 
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salamacum

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Hi all,

Should we reject a doctrine because of its effect or the fallout amongst the carnal and selfish? After all, the accusation the judaisers made of Paul was that he was making salvation too easy. I've known evangelicals who ceased to believe in divine healing because they had 'never seen a convincing example'.
Actually, what I'm interested in is the historical attitude of the Church towards sin after people have joined the church, become Christians, been baptised, however you define being a Christian.
For example Tertullian was very hard on those who had failed to confess Christ during persecution and even on those who'd escaped persecution arguing they couldn't be re-admitted to the Church.
Also, I've heard the argument that in the reaction to Marcion who rejected almost eveything apart from St Paul, the Church swamped justification by faith with Jewish covenantal ideas about 'right worship' and 'right practice'. (ie, you must do things in the right way). This was very useful as a catechumen when you needed to know who was 'in' and who was 'out' to protect the church from infiltrators.
 
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ScottsWife

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I have been in many churches that preach "Once Saved Always Saved"...and although, according to them, I am saved...I have never felt at peace about it. Pastors have told me to pray about it and I have....OSAS does not sit well with me. And there are many scriptures that contradict that "doctrine."

The Orthodox stance on Salvation...and how its a lifetime commitment and process is probably the main thing that attracts me to this church. I'm sure it weeds out the "Carnal Christians" real quick, and holds them accountable to live right.
 
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ScottsWife

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I think that if we were "once saved, always saved," then Jesus would not have told the parable about keeping the lamps full of oil....and the one about making sure we have on our wedding garments. I could be mistaken, but I believe that a lot of what I call "carnal Christians," really do believe in Jesus....they just are not willing to "live" it...and they have run out of oil in their lamps....and their consciences and hearts (wedding garments) are "stained up tethered clothing." If the "once saved always safe" doctrine is true, then I don't think Jesus would have given us these warnings.

I hope that this does not offend anyone on this board...I'm not Orthodox (yet)...but I'm investigating the faith....going to my first service tomorrow!!
 
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SpiritlMuse

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ScottsWife..

I am with you 100%.. I too never felt right about "Once Saved Always Saved". I believe it is one of the main things that I am attracted to the Orthodox church... that lifetime of commitment, being accountable for your self

I have been in many churches that preach "Once Saved Always Saved"...and although, according to them, I am saved...I have never felt at peace about it. Pastors have told me to pray about it and I have....OSAS does not sit well with me. And there are many scriptures that contradict that "doctrine."

The Orthodox stance on Salvation...and how its a lifetime commitment and process is probably the main thing that attracts me to this church. I'm sure it weeds out the "Carnal Christians" real quick, and holds them accountable to live right.
 
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Gregorios

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I just had this same struggle with my grandma (who is coming into the Church this year, Glory to God!) and basically OSAS is a semi-corruption of Calvinism. It seems to be Calvinism minus predestination I suppose, in any event, there's no real scriptural evidence to support it(unless you take things out of context) and it is rejected by the Fathers (if it even came up).Don't worry about it though, strive to live a sober, genuine Christian life, draw close to Christ, and everything will be ok :)
 
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Heavendweller

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I have been in many churches that preach "Once Saved Always Saved"...and although, according to them, I am saved...I have never felt at peace about it. Pastors have told me to pray about it and I have....OSAS does not sit well with me. And there are many scriptures that contradict that "doctrine."

The Orthodox stance on Salvation...and how its a lifetime commitment and process is probably the main thing that attracts me to this church. I'm sure it weeds out the "Carnal Christians" real quick, and holds them accountable to live right.

You would think that, but there are "Carnal Christians" within the Orthodox Church just as there are in other churches.
 
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