"On White Privilege"

[whatbogsends]

Okay. Let's assume that the problems in the black community are not due to racial bias at all. What other causes could there be? All we're let with is biology, that black people are more prone to crime than those of other races, that there's something about their race that causes criminal activity.

Except...there really isn't any such thing as race. What we call race is just skin color, and skin color in humans is not a significant biological difference. There is no significant biological difference between a man with black skin and a man with white skin. The only differences between them are cultural, related to social structures and class distinctions.

So we're back to square one.

What other causes could there be? Perhaps you missed this post, which was a response to a study linked by Summer Madness, which showed "Asian privilege" (i.e. Asians outperforming whites) and discussed their causes:

So, it's fair to attribute the success of "asians" to "cultural differences in beliefs regarding the connection between effort and achievement" (i agree, this is a huge factor) but when we're discussing the poor outcomes for "blacks" it's "society's fault, as a whole", and not the result of "cultural differences in beliefs regarding the connection between effort and achievement" among their own communities.

Even the studies you linked make statements like "Only East Asians have a sizable advantage in cognitive ability." (hint: they're the only Asian population with a sizable advantage in cognitive ability, not the only Asian population with any advantage in cognitive ability.

in this linked extract: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/23/8416.full.pdf?sid=42de9af1-b68d-42bf-8d3b-c0744fbad9da

If there are no inherited differences in ethnic groups, why does the study - which contends that the majority (not all) of difference in academic achievement is due to a culture stressing effort - acknowledge the difference in cognitive ability of an ethnic group? Moreover, why do they caveat their assessment with "First, the growing Asian-American advantage in academic achievement relative to whites is due more to a growing Asian–white gap in academic effort than to a gap in cognitive ability". It's not due "solely to a gap in academic effort and not to a gap in cognitive ability, rather it's more due to the gap in effort than cognitive ability.

Asian success was attributed primarily to their own culture's sociology; i.e. they put more of an emphasis on work ethic and studying. Secondarily, their success was attributed to biology. While it paled in comparison to the impact of their culture's work ethic, some groups of Asians demonstrated a sizable advantage in cognitive ability (while other groups of Asians demonstrated a minimal advantage).

No one argued that Asians comparative success vs. whites was due to "racial bias in favor of Asian", but when outcomes for blacks are shown to be worse than white, issues within black culture (there culture teaches disrespect for the law and/or doesn't promote academic achievement) and biology are dismissed as possible causes out of hand, because it doesn't fit in with the narrative of "white privilege". Again, this study was posted by Summer Madness trying to disprove differences in race, but that's not what the study actually said.

When there is a disparity in the outcomes between Asians and whites (in favor of Asians), differences in their culture and biology were looked at and found to be factors in their success.

When there is a disparity in the outcomes between whites and blacks, all possible causes other than racial bias are routinely dismissed, with whoever suggests those causes cited for racism.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Either way....if we take a historically black art form and use white actors instead, we've got us a minstrel show. Minstrel shows were very popular in the late 19th century, so how would that be breaking tradition, exactly?

-- A2SG, and besides, there'll never be another Jolson.....

I'm not seeing the connection. We wouldn't have a white Huxtable family pretending to be black...just as you wouldn't have a black James Bond pretending to be white.

So there's no real connection to "minstrel shows".

Since we've dispelled that nonsense....is it a good tradition to defy?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Sorry if it sounded that way. Let me try to explain better.

I know black people for whom racial bias is a daily problem. They encounter discrimination on a regular basis, in a hundred different ways. Ways that you and I would never see, because we don't face them. Now, I don't mean to say these are all major things, not like there are daily lynchings or anything, but racial bias played out nevertheless:

Seeing people push their children behind them if a black man approaches; seeing people cross the street if a handful of black kids are near; having the cops called if a group of black kids are getting a bit loud on a public street, even as the white kids a block away are even louder; everyone casting an eye toward the only black person in the office if someone notices something missing.

Yes, these things happen. And as a white person, we don't see them because they don't happen to us.

So, to be able to believe that such things can't possibly exist is a case of white privilege; black people don't get to have that belief, because they see them, all the time. Oftentimes, they're subtle, and won't even be statistically significant if put on paper, but they make up daily reality for a lot of black people.

White people get to think that racism isn't a big deal because, for them, it isn't. That's a privilege not everyone gets.

-- A2SG, and one that can't ever been seen, unless you put on a different color skin.....

Again...what's the connection between this and my comments? How does this frame my opinion as "white privilege"?

Also...how does a black person in all the examples you used here, know that racism is involved? It's an assumption...right?

Edit- what's most disturbing about this post and your examples is the blatant assumption of racism. A white person pushes their kids behind them on the sidewalk when a black man approaches...it must be out of racism, right? After all, they certainly wouldn't just be making room for someone else on the sidewalk, they aren't that considerate, they're racist! Cops get called on some black kids playing loudly...must've been some white people who called the cops! After all, they're racist! Office workers see something missing and start talking about it, they all look at the black person...cuz they think he stole it, right? Couldn't be they were just waiting for him to comment or see if he's missing anything.

Do you know what confirmation bias is? How do you think someone who is raised to believe everyone is racist against them is affected by it? Do you think maybe they might start seeing racism where it isn't?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I dunno...some can manage it.

You really think that a bunch of employers are out there reading the study going, "Gee, I had no idea how racist I was all this time?"

Many people fall into the trap of thinking things are the way they are, and there's nothing anyone can do to change them. Then a new generation comes along, and it changes anyway.

Look at the world you grew up in, and then look at today. Has it changed any?

This doesn't really address my post. Here...look at the study yourself...

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/august/prison-black-laws-080614.html

""But we found that, ironically, exposure to extreme racial disparities may make the public less, and not more, responsive to attempts to lessen the severity of policies that help maintain those disparities.

It perpetuates the idea that to succeed in the US, you have to pass for "white," or at least get as close as possible.

There's no objective reason why Malik is less qualified for any job than John, so there's no objective reason to perpetuate the idea that John is a better name.

I don't think that one flawed study actually shows what you think it shows.

Probably, sure. But if we never confront assumptions like that, and actively try to change them, they remain. If every black parent figured it'd be better to name their kids John or James, there'd be no Malik's left, no matter how many black employers there are.

I don't know about you, but I like a variety of names.

So this is less about employment than it is changing perception?

Then we have to make sure Malik is just as familiar a name as John. And that black people are just as familiar as white ones.

Equality, in other words.

It's not as familiar though...and it isn't likely to be. I've known far far more Johns than Maliks. So has pretty much everyone else...

Do you think the effects of that are necessarily rooted in racism? Or could it simply be an issue of familiarity?

I'm still unsure of why we need to do one to discuss the other. There are a lot of factors that come into play, a lot of history, and even if we discuss all of it for years, we may never come any closer to determining even the major causes, let alone all of them.

There's an entire scientific field dedicated to studying such things, it's called sociology. And many people still regard that science as a "soft" science, considering its ideas nothing more than opinion.

It's no more complicated than you don't feel like discussing "causes" and I don't feel like it's useful discussing what "should be".

Okay, fair enough. why not talk to people who've experienced it first hand, and try to see the situation from their perspective?

To not have to see the inequalities race brings every day is kind of the basic definition of white privilege, I'd say.

Because individual experiences don't necessarily translate into larger trends. Personal perspective is subject to all kinds of biases, preconceptions, and flaws. This is true regardless of what race you are...so I don't see the connection to white privilege. Shall I continue?

Exactly the point

.

Lol are you under the impression that employers are just looking at a list of names and numbers?

Having a silly or unusual name is not the same as having an infamous one. Or even a famous name without it being infamous...do you know the actor Albert Brooks? Know what his birth name is?

Are you contending that our Adolf Hitler tour guide shouldn't be judged by his ability as a tour guide solely? What if he's the best tour guide out there?

No more than the fact that one jewish man survived living in Nazi Germany disproves the experiences of millions more.

Yeah, I went there...you already Godwined this thing with the last example, I figured why not double down on it.

I'm glad you understand why it's useless to examine individual experiences of individual blacks and trying to see things from their perspective...I hope we're done with that.

Just because some people have prejudices, that more of them do doesn't justify the prejudice. Or, to put it another way, you can't judge a book by it's cover. A name, no matter how odd or unusual, is not a good indicator of job skill or experience. Making a conclusion based on a person's name alone is a prejudice, not a sound judgment.

So, even though Adolf Hitler is a name with some baggage...we should hire him as a tour guide. After all, we wouldn't want to make judgements based upon what we know about public perception.

The part where you prove Boaty McBoatface is a lousy accountant...or tour guide, brick layer, marine biologist, neurosurgeon....or what have you.

Never said he was a lousy whatever. That's your misinterpretation of what I said.

That doesn't change the question: what makes someone with an unfamiliar name a lousy accountant....or tour guide, brick layer, marine biologist, neurosurgeon....or what have you.

Again, that's not something I ever said...so you'll have to ask someone else.

Well, to be fair, I have been discussing solutions, and I'm more than willing to hear any you'd care to suggest.

-- A2SG, glad to know you're also enjoying this....too often people think internet debates have to be acrimonious, and I love it when that's proven wrong....

I gave a suggestion. One that doesn't even involve examining black history. You shot it down. I remember you suggesting that job interviews be held behind a screen or some such thing lol....did you have any other suggestions?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Are you prepared to prove that black people are worse drivers than white people? Because if you cannot definitively prove that, you have no case.

Good luck!

Luck must be on my side...

Here's a study that compared red light camera data and police stops done at night at a distance (the idea being that at least it would be much more difficult to identify the race of the driver). One would imagine that they show blacks being offenders much less often, revealing that police making daylight stops are biased...but they show the exact opposite. Link is on the page...

https://www.quora.com/Do-studies-su...d-white-people-commit-crimes-at-the-same-rate

Here's another study using red light cameras (Since they're completely unbiased) and once again, they mirror police traffic stop rates, revealing little to know bias on behalf of cops.

http://journalistsresource.org/stud...al-justice/racial-profiling-red-light-cameras

From that page...

“If the resulting action of law enforcement and that observed by the camera is similar, then this redefines the issue of racial profiling,”

Keep in mind, these studies are buried. No one wants to publish a story about a study that shows police aren't racially biased. Why do you imagine that is?

Such as?

Such as the possibility that perceived ethnicity/race of a name has nothing to do with call backs and it's entirely based upon familiarity.

If you link it, I'll check it out. I gotta say, though, that while I do like a lot of Maher's stuff, I do find him more than a little full of himself a lot of the time.

You can search for "Bill Maher white privilege" or "Beige Against the Machine" and see it. It's about 5-6 mins of funny.

Which has been since when, exactly? That might be a clue there.

But, if true, what does this data suggest? If you're trying to make the case that black people are, as a race, more prone to criminal activity than those of other races...that'd be a hard case to make. You'd have to compare the crime rates of black people toward those of other races in other countries as well, across the globe.

Since skin color isn't a significant biological distinction in humans, though, the reason for a higher crime rate is highly unlikely to be race, so if you're looking for a cause, it's probably not biology.

Which leaves us with the reason for a higher crime rate being social, not biological, and tied in with the history of black people in the US.

Now, if we want to explore causes further, we can study the history of black people in the US in greater detail...or we could simply try our best in the future to not assume every black person is a criminal, and treat them as if they were.

I dunno, which sounds more practical and productive to you?

I'd say that since we've tried one thing for the past 50+ years, maybe it's time to try something else.

I'm actually old enough to remember when blacks didn't value criminal activity. When they didn't seem to view an education and job as "white america"'s way forward. From what I can tell at least, it started to change dramatically in the late 80s when suddenly "street cred" became so desirable to young black men and an attitude of "I'm going to get mine no matter what".

I have no doubt that it's not a coincidence that it coincides directly to the collapse of manufacturing in the U.S. I don't think it's an issue of biology at all.

Yet it amazes me when whites like yourself are saying "we've got to get this racial bias under control" when the number one killer of black men 18-32 in this nation is...other black men. Not heart disease, cancer, suicide, etc....but other black men.

That's a choice that a community makes...about what a community values.

I'd like to see that equality be more of a reality than a legal principle we try to follow.

Well unfortunately, it seems to be turning the other way these days. I read a whole article (I think in Huff po) recently by a black woman who essentially tried to redefine racism as something only white people do. When black people do it...It's merely prejudice. That's not an attitude of equality...and it's emboldened by the likes of you.

Only if you feel racial inequality in today's world is good enough.

Fat inequality, height inequalities, beauty inequalities....some things can be minimized, others are human nature.

Ask black people if it is, see what they tell you. It's a daily reality for them, it isn't a daily reality for white folks. That's white privilege for ya.

I thought we already established that personal experiences won't help examine this problem.

How? If we all make a concerted effort to treat everyone equally, regardless of race, how can that possibly be worse than the systemic bias we have currently?

If only one side makes that effort...eventually they will resent that fact and it will rebound on everyone.

If you blame someone for causing a problem, especially one that's existed for longer than the person has likely been alive, it makes them defensive, and resistant to change. If, on the other hand, you simply acknowledge that the problem exists, and that we all can help fix it, there's much less resistance.

It's basically making people more a part of the solution than a part of the problem.

Wonderful! Wanna join me in acknowledging that there's a serious problem with the glorification of crime/violence in the black community? Wanna acknowledge that with me? Wanna acknowledge that the problem of self-victimization and blaming others needs to stop?

Nothing is wrong with them. But they're all white-sounding names. If people are hiring based on how common a name is, and the most common names are white, then whites are being favored over blacks based on name alone...which is not an indication of how qualified an individual is for the job.

Aren't some names always going to be more common than others though? Perhaps the government should step in and distribute names more equitably.

If your resume isn't even seen, then you won't be called back.

I don't think we have any studies on that...so I don't know where you're getting it from.

Which should mean some representation in pop culture, at least. As I said, that has improved over time, so progress has been made. But I'd still like to see more...to the point where any talented black kid has as much a chance to be successful as any talented white kid.

Me too...but I'm more concerned about the part where we start reflecting the media.

Is "I'm in love with the coco!" A good message for today's black youth?

I suppose so...in much the same way I approve of a gentle breeze cooling me down on a hot day, or the rain making flowers grow.

See above.

Ever see the BBC series Luther? He plays a cop, a brilliant detective also prone to violence. Not dissimilar to a certain spy whose author describes as a "blunt instrument."

Nope, last thing I saw him in was Prometheus. He was competent.

Putting black performers in roles previously associated with whites is a relatively new practice; on the other hand, whites playing black roles has considerable history behind it, most obviously being minstrel shows. Also, there have been many musical styles that were marginalized when mostly performed by black artists that only became popular when white performers took over the genre...Elvis Presly being a prominent example.

So taking a black act and making it white isn't defying tradition so much as adhering to it.

Minstrel shows had whites playing black characters in black face....not even remotely close to what I'm suggesting. Nor do I see what this has to do with Elvis.

Led Zeppelin was a big fan of southern american blues...are you suggesting that they shouldn't have played it because they're white?

Just because everyone thinks "When the Levee Breaks" is their song doesn't make it wrong.

Bill Cosby is the actor; Cliff Huxtable (et al) is the character.

Gotcha...it's been awhile.

I didn't say they were correct or incorrect, only that they were based on assumptions, not facts. It's like throwing lawn darts at night, how close you get to the target is purely a product of luck, and nothing more.

I don't think it's purely luck.

You assigned racist motivations to the cops investigating, I didn't.

Well what did you mean when you said police investigate black and white crime differently?

I do, as does he.



Which myth is that? He has given me no reason to doubt him, so I'm not going to assume he's lying about having been stopped over 30 times. I know I didn't lie about how many times I was stopped.

Isn't it at least possible for him to distorting the truth based upon his perception?

Or have the lessons of Ferguson been lost on you already?

Go ahead.



Is there some specific data in that link you wish to discuss?

See the beginning of this post.

What other factor is there? Surely there have been black people qualified to run for president since the Emancipation Proclamation, why has it taken until 2008 for one to be nominated by a major party?

Are you serious? Race is the only consideration to make before running for president?!?

Okay. Let's assume that the problems in the black community are not due to racial bias at all. What other causes could there be? All we're let with is biology, that black people are more prone to crime than those of other races, that there's something about their race that causes criminal activity.

Black culture in the U.S.

What's funny is when you talk to some blacks who've been here for very little time. I worked really closely with a PR guy for some time who is as black as they get. He was disgusted by black culture in the U.S. and got upset when other blacks called him black...as far as he was concerned, he'd have none of it, he's Puerto Rican.

Except...there really isn't any such thing as race. What we call race is just skin color, and skin color in humans is not a significant biological difference. There is no significant biological difference between a man with black skin and a man with white skin. The only differences between them are cultural, related to social structures and class distinctions.

So we're back to square one.

Or we could look at the culture of black america and ask, "is anything wrong with this picture?"

How can you study a lack of data? How can you compare how many crimes we don't know are committed in black neighborhoods with how many crimes we don't know are committed in white neighborhoods?

We can only look at data we have. Do you want to do that or not?

Which leads to the question of why.

Why are black people more prone to criminal activity than white people?

Biology's been ruled out....what other reasons are there?

The culture of black america.

There are two possible reasons: nature or nurture. Rule out biology, and you're left with environment.

Exactly...what is that environment and what does it tell them?

And the reason they view the police in such a way is caused by the way cops have acted in the past, which was caused by the way blacks acted which was caused by....

And so on and so on.

This is why assigning blame is counterproductive, there's nore than enough to go around. Which is why I prefer to leave the question of blame aside, and see what we can do to make things better.

Study the past, but don't let it dictate how we act now, and in the future.

Well the police appear to have taken great strides towards equality. How about blacks?

To where? Biology?

Black culture in the U.S....it's amazing that you haven't thought of it yet, but at least I'm here to help you out.

I dunno...are they? Is there data on this?

Let's see if we can find a study...

If you don't want to hurt a white man's chances to improve a black man's, why would you rather hurt a black man's chances to improve a white man's....because the latter has been going on for a long time now.

Whoa...how so? How have I (as any white man) been hurting a black man's chances at a job?

Probably not. But that shouldn't stop us from trying to.

Some people feel the same way about the war on drugs.

You tell me: if you see a character flaw in yourself, do you accept it or do you try, as best you can, to be better?

It depends...some flaws have their advantages.

True, but it's not possible to zero the game and restart with a level playing field, life goes on without a reset button. We have to create changes based on what happened before, and try to improve ourselves as we move forward. Which often means swinging the pendulum back in the other direction for a while to effect a fairer balance.

-- A2Sg, and if the swing has always been in your favor, you can imagine how hard it is to accept that it isn't......

Oh yea...that's the only way to create equality, right? Hold one down to raise another up? How's affirmative action been working out anyway?

 

[Paidiske]

when outcomes for blacks are shown to be worse than white, issues within black culture (there culture teaches disrespect for the law and/or doesn't promote academic achievement) and biology are dismissed as possible causes out of hand, because it doesn't fit in with the narrative of "white privilege".

But these issues in black culture are not unrelated to white privilege, surely?

Where does the disrespect for the law come from? Where does the lack of engagement with educational opportunity come from? Where does the bravado-covering-despair come from? Could it be that experiencing a system stacked against them feeds into creating all of these issues?

And the reason I'm not buying "black culture in the US" as the source of all of these problems is that these problems are not confined to the US. Granted they have different expressions in different places, and "black culture" varies from place to place, but it would seem that racism is something rather more constant in places with a European colonial past.

 

[nightflight]

But these issues in black culture are not unrelated to white privilege, surely?

Where does the disrespect for the law come from? Where does the lack of engagement with educational opportunity come from? Where does the bravado-covering-despair come from? Could it be that experiencing a system stacked against them feeds into creating all of these issues?

And the reason I'm not buying "black culture in the US" as the source of all of these problems is that these problems are not confined to the US. Granted they have different expressions in different places, and "black culture" varies from place to place, but it would seem that racism is something rather more constant in places with a European colonial past.

But it seems like when what you said above is taken as true and from that diagnosis policy is implemented, we end up infantalizing a people, taking agency away from them.

 

[Paidiske]

That has certainly been a problem here in Australia (was it in this thread that I posted about the Northern Territory Intervention? More info here if not: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Territory_National_Emergency_Response ).

I don't know what all of the answers are. I know that poverty is a huge part of the problem, access to appropriate health care, educational services which meet the needs of the children falling through the cracks, social welfare support in so many ways. I'd like the need for those things to be acknowledged, as a start, so we can start working on delivery.

 

[rturner76]

But these issues in black culture are not unrelated to white privilege, surely?

Where does the disrespect for the law come from? Where does the lack of engagement with educational opportunity come from? Where does the bravado-covering-despair come from? Could it be that experiencing a system stacked against them feeds into creating all of these issues?

And the reason I'm not buying "black culture in the US" as the source of all of these problems is that these problems are not confined to the US. Granted they have different expressions in different places, and "black culture" varies from place to place, but it would seem that racism is something rather more constant in places with a European colonial past.

She is so smart! I think I love her! What people don't understand is that it is a reaction to the action of oppression which has been going on for centuries. You can't pass a law now everything is changed. It takes many generations to shake off the stink of racial oppression.

 

[nightflight]

She is so smart! I think I love her! What people don't understand is that it is a reaction to the action of oppression which has been going on for centuries. You can't pass a law now everything is changed. It takes many generations to shake off the stink of racial oppression.

How many generations?

 

[Paidiske]

Perhaps that depends on how much progress we make in each generation...?

 

[nightflight]

Perhaps that depends on how much progress we make in each generation...?

Do you not at least suspect that your approach might seem paternalistic and infantalizing?

 

[Paidiske]

I think it depends on how it's done. There's a lot of work being done now, for example, on training indigenous people as teachers, so that they can go back into their own communities. Or on having indigenous people providing health services within their own communities, and so forth. So that it's not being driven top-down by white people or other outsiders but it is communities being able to have the skills and expertise to create their own solutions.

But I don't think there's anything paternalistic about making sure that every person has access to health care, to education, to other supports they might need. That's just basic human decency.

 

[rturner76]

How many generations?

I think whites will reign supreme for quite a while with the highest property values and the run of all the banks until Jesus comes. Day to day I think the milleneals seem to be less racist then us Gen Xers but there's always the hold outs. The more progressive our society gets the more fair it will get

 

[A2SG]

What other causes could there be? Perhaps you missed this post, which was a response to a study linked by Summer Madness, which showed "Asian privilege" (i.e. Asians outperforming whites) and discussed their causes:

Asian success was attributed primarily to their own culture's sociology; i.e. they put more of an emphasis on work ethic and studying. Secondarily, their success was attributed to biology. While it paled in comparison to the impact of their culture's work ethic, some groups of Asians demonstrated a sizable advantage in cognitive ability (while other groups of Asians demonstrated a minimal advantage).

No one argued that Asians comparative success vs. whites was due to "racial bias in favor of Asian", but when outcomes for blacks are shown to be worse than white, issues within black culture (there culture teaches disrespect for the law and/or doesn't promote academic achievement) and biology are dismissed as possible causes out of hand, because it doesn't fit in with the narrative of "white privilege". Again, this study was posted by Summer Madness trying to disprove differences in race, but that's not what the study actually said.

When there is a disparity in the outcomes between Asians and whites (in favor of Asians), differences in their culture and biology were looked at and found to be factors in their success.

When there is a disparity in the outcomes between whites and blacks, all possible causes other than racial bias are routinely dismissed, with whoever suggests those causes cited for racism.

First, skin color is not a significant biological difference, so race alone is not a biological factor. Which the study you cite concurs with, attributing asian success to sociology, specifically a culture that praises achievement and intelligence.

So any difference between those of different races wins up being cultural, not biological.

That said, there is an asian culture (several of them, in fact), distinct from US culture. For blacks in the US, there is no corresponding separate culture. The ancestors of american blacks (for the most part) were separated from their culture and forced to serve ours, and then, after years, even decades, of slavery, were entered into our existing culture with no past culture for them to look back on, to draw on, learn about from their parents and grandparents. Asians have that, even those who have lived in the US all their lives. To my mind, that accounts for a lot of the differences between how asians fare in the US and how blacks fare.

But, as I've said several times before, I'm less interested in the causes of racial inequality than I am in solutions going forward. I believe if we try to treat those of different races the same as we treat those of our own race, society overall will benefit. Too often, dwelling on the causes of racial strife often hamper that goal, as we tend to relive and revive old grudges and grievances best relegated to history books rather than the daily news.

-- A2SG, and that's not limited to race....the whole mishigas over the confederate flag is a prime example....no one waving the confederate flag today fought in the civil war.....

 

[whatbogsends]

But these issues in black culture are not unrelated to white privilege, surely?

Where does the disrespect for the law come from? Where does the lack of engagement with educational opportunity come from? Where does the bravado-covering-despair come from? Could it be that experiencing a system stacked against them feeds into creating all of these issues?

And the reason I'm not buying "black culture in the US" as the source of all of these problems is that these problems are not confined to the US. Granted they have different expressions in different places, and "black culture" varies from place to place, but it would seem that racism is something rather more constant in places with a European colonial past.

I never suggested that "black culture in the US" is "the source of all these problems". I've repeatedly said that i do believe there is a racial bias in the US that has impacts. However, i don't believe that by any stretch of the imagination the sole influence on outcomes is "racial bias". Different population groups have different traits. When i say "population groups", those two groups could be "rural whites from mississippi" and "suburban whites from the boston area" and i would expect there to be statistical differences, and different expected outcomes.

Repeatedly, in this thread and others, the argument is made that all differences in outcome MUST be attributed to racial bias because....well, because there are differences in outcome, and it can't possibly have anything to do with biology, so racial bias is the only other thing i can think of.

The argument made in this thread tries to take a very broad issue/problem ("blacks have a worse outcome than whites" and make a very simple assertion "these outcomes are a direct product of white privilege", when the truth is, it's a multifaceted issue, in which i absolutely believe racial bias plays a part, but i think it is infinitely more complex than that.

I would definitely agree that there is a cyclical element to black perception of the way power structures work, and that some if not most of their complaints are rooted upon legitimate issues. That being said, if the perception in black communities is "the police are out to get you whether you obey the law or not", and, partly due to that perception, that community breaks the law more often than average (due to their belief it doesn't matter whether you break the law, as they're out to get you, regardless), it becomes, to an extent, a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I agree we need to strive, as a society, to not be driven by our preconceptions, but it doesn't negate the responsibility of a person or group for their own actions.

Also realize that what is perceived as racial bias is also partly economic bias, as the system does, absolutely, give favorable outcomes to those from a higher socio-economic status. This goes for people of all races. The wealthy (and even moderately well off) will often receive less of a penalty for committing the same crime that a poor person would. There is inequity in the system, and there is a racial component to it, but to lay all the inequity at the foot of "bias by and for white people" is an oversimplification and a mischaracterization.

 

[nightflight]

I think whites will reign supreme for quite a while with the highest property values and the run of all the banks until Jesus comes. Day to day I think the milleneals seem to be less racist then us Gen Xers but there's always the hold outs. The more progressive our society gets the more fair it will get

No; millennials just have a different group to be racist against.

 

[A2SG]

I'm not seeing the connection. We wouldn't have a white Huxtable family pretending to be black...just as you wouldn't have a black James Bond pretending to be white.

So there's no real connection to "minstrel shows".

Yes, there is. Minstrel shows were a popular form of entertainment for blacks, going back to the days of slavery. Over time, the form was taken over by whites, with white actors or performers used instead. This has happened for many other art forms as well, from blues to jazz music, dance, etc. Minstrel shows is just one example of a long tradition of white performers using forms originated by black performers, including Elvis, Led Zeppelin, Vanilla Ice and Eminem.

Since we've dispelled that nonsense....is it a good tradition to defy?

If by "defy" you mean "perpetuate an outdated tradition so many have done in the past," then sure, try it. See what happens.

-- A2SG, worked out well for Ted Dansen at the Friars.......

 

[whatbogsends]

First, skin color is not a significant biological difference, so race alone is not a biological factor.

No, skin color is not a significant biological difference. And while the biology of all people are similar, it is disingenous to suggest that there aren't biological differences between different groups. Those groups aren't "all blacks" and "all whites", but when we talk about "all blacks", it tends to have more members of specific geographical and cultural sub-groups. There are biological factors between some of those groups. I've cited (and proponents of your argument have also cited) studies which say this. The argument that "there is no race" is based on the lack of "distinct differences between racial groups", not on "there are no biological differences between different groups of people".

Which the study you cite concurs with, attributing asian success to sociology, specifically a culture that praises achievement and intelligence.

So any difference between those of different races wins up being cultural, not biological.

Read the results of the study. Differences in cognitive ability were noted, although identified as being less of an impact than differences due to culture.

That said, there is an asian culture (several of them, in fact), distinct from US culture. For blacks in the US, there is no corresponding separate culture. The ancestors of american blacks (for the most part) were separated from their culture and forced to serve ours, and then, after years, even decades, of slavery, were entered into our existing culture with no past culture for them to look back on, to draw on, learn about from their parents and grandparents. Asians have that, even those who have lived in the US all their lives. To my mind, that accounts for a lot of the differences between how asians fare in the US and how blacks fare.

While i agree that many of the influences of the black culture in the US can be traced back through practices and prejudices which should absolutely be condemned, it isn't to say that in today's world, all of the disparate outcomes are the result of continued racial bias. Many successful black people have spoken out about some of the prevalent attitudes in "black culture", which contribute to those disparate outcomes.

I agree we should strive to provide opportunities to the less fortunate, and work towards making this country more of a meritocracy. That doesn't, however, absolve people of their own responsibilities.

But, as I've said several times before, I'm less interested in the causes of racial inequality than I am in solutions going forward. I believe if we try to treat those of different races the same as we treat those of our own race, society overall will benefit. Too often, dwelling on the causes of racial strife often hamper that goal, as we tend to relive and revive old grudges and grievances best relegated to history books rather than the daily news.

-- A2SG, and that's not limited to race....the whole mishigas over the confederate flag is a prime example....no one waving the confederate flag today fought in the civil war.....

I absolutely believe in promoting equity. Equity of rights, equity of opportunity, equity of treatment. I don't believe, however, that expecting equal outcomes based on that is a reasonable expectation. I've provided examples in which the outcomes favor blacks compared to whites, and i see no one suggesting that the reason for those outcomes is a "racial bias" in favor of black people/against white people, in how those outcomes came about.

 

[A2SG]

Again...what's the connection between this and my comments? How does this frame my opinion as "white privilege"?

This is what you said:

Or we've reached our destination. Ever hear the expression "the perfect is the enemy of the good"? It's the idea that by continually trying to "improve" something that's already quite good...you stand more of a chance to mess it up and make things worse.

To think that we've "reached our destination" toward more racial equality in the US, or to consider the current status of race relations as "already quite good" shows an ability to ignore, if not outright dismiss, the problems of racial bias in our society today. Blacks don't get to dismiss them, they see them all the time, all around them. To be able to not see them, that's a privilege.

Also...how does a black person in all the examples you used here, know that racism is involved? It's an assumption...right?

In many cases, if not most cases, it isn't overt racism; it's systemic racism built into society. It's often unconscious, not intended. Which is one reason why I prefer not to assign blame or dwell on causes. I'd rather focus on doing better going forward.

Edit- what's most disturbing about this post and your examples is the blatant assumption of racism. A white person pushes their kids behind them on the sidewalk when a black man approaches...it must be out of racism, right? After all, they certainly wouldn't just be making room for someone else on the sidewalk, they aren't that considerate, they're racist! Cops get called on some black kids playing loudly...must've been some white people who called the cops! After all, they're racist! Office workers see something missing and start talking about it, they all look at the black person...cuz they think he stole it, right? Couldn't be they were just waiting for him to comment or see if he's missing anything.

One event might be misinterpreted. Two could be a coincidence, maybe even three. Four or more...many, many more....and a pattern begins to emerge.

But tell you what, don't take my word for it. Ask a black person if they've experienced things such as I've described, see what they say, and what they think about it. Farbeit from me to speak for them.

Do you know what confirmation bias is? How do you think someone who is raised to believe everyone is racist against them is affected by it? Do you think maybe they might start seeing racism where it isn't?

How about this: rather than blaming people for being racists, or trying to ascribe racist motivations for what could very well be unconscious behavior, let's all think about how our actions may be perceived, and strive toward being better going forward?

Yeah, call me Pollyanna.....

-- A2SG, you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.....