"On White Privilege"

[nightflight]

Isn't that what whatbogsends was trying to argue? Races are different, so that makes the concentration of wealth and power in the hands of one race perfectly fine, because obviously they're genetically geared to it. Can't argue with genetics, can we?

Man, it hurt my brain just to type that.

It hurt my brain to go back and read all that; thinking is hard for me. But I'll let 'bogs reply.

 

[rturner76]

It hurt my brain to go back and read all that; thinking is hard for me. But I'll let 'bogs reply.

Just use that superior white brain you've been given. The research shows you should be able to out think any woman or minority on here (except Jews) lol.

 

[nightflight]

Just use that superior white brain you've been given. The research shows you should be able to out think any woman or minority on here (except Jews) lol.

I'm an outlier.

 

[Chesterton]

I haven't kept up with the thread, but read the last couple pages. Aside from the what's being argued - whether "affirmative action" is needed or moral - has anyone mentioned that there is a wealth of research showing that it doesn't work, that it does not benefit the people it's supposed to help, and does more harm than good? And this is the case not just in America but in countries around the world which have such programs for specific ethnic groups.

 

[whatbogsends]

Isn't that what whatbogsends was trying to argue? Races are different, so that makes the concentration of wealth and power in the hands of one race perfectly fine, because obviously they're genetically geared to it. Can't argue with genetics, can we?

Man, it hurt my brain just to type that.

I don't think you actually read my posts.

I stated quite clearly, multiple times, that some level of white privilege exists. Moreover, i believe we should strive to eliminate racial bias in the way our society functions.

However, societal racial bias or "white privilege" isn't necessarily the sole reason for explaining differences in outcomes. It's a false assumption to believe that "equal outcomes" are the expected result in a system in which many things are unequal. Additionally, if "equal outcomes", are the expected result, than we should expect to see "equal outcomes" everywhere, not just in financial and career situations, but in all aspects of life (yes, including sport).

I laid out a clear example of an arena in which the outcome heavily favors blacks over whites (despite whites having the advantages of having money and training that poor blacks would not have available to them). The response was that "it's possible that there are physical racial differences, but it is racist to suggest that there are mental racial differences". There is data which quantifies some of the differences between the races, both physical (height, weight, etc) and mental (specifically IQ). What has not been determined is the full "why" these differences exist (genetics, culture, natural selection), but what is not in question in the scientific community is that these statistical differences exist.

 

[whatbogsends]

Just use that superior white brain you've been given. The research shows you should be able to out think any woman or minority on here (except Jews) lol.

While i'm guessing (or at least hoping), that this reply was tongue-in-cheek, instead of discussion about the studies or offering alternative studies which demonstrate my claims to be false, we have responses like this, in which you assert that because a person belongs to a group which has certain traits, that those traits are directly applicable to every person in that group (which i specifically addressed in my previous posts).

Just because men are bigger than women (they are: http://www.theaveragebody.com/average_height.php), doesn't preclude a woman being the biggest person in the world. The recorded facts of the matter do support the most likely result (from what i could find in a quick search, there are 10 men recorded as taller than the tallest woman).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_people

Why is it when facts are presented, people want to attempt to ridicule the facts and derail the conversation?

 

[A2SG]

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/01/15/u...mystery-deaths-that-haunt.html?pagewanted=all

Apparently Charles Stuart gave a rather detailed description of the gunman, including the clothing...

"The way Chuckie had described the assailant led you to believe that it was real. He went as far as to describe a stripe in the sleeve of the running suit and how the gunman reached into the inside of his zipper jacket for the gun, turned and faced him.''

So, that was a big waste of time wasn't it?

Not really, since that entire story shows how easily everyone believed his story. Even to this day, I hear people claim Chuck was framed.

-- A2SG, imagine if the races were reversed, how different that story would have been.....

 

[A2SG]

I grouped all those quotes together because they can be summarized rather easily. Basically...

1. You don't know what causes white privilege.

Not strictly true: I understand many of the root causes, even though I fully admit there are many factors that come into play. What I've said, instead, is that I'm not as interested in causes as I am in solutions.

2. You know it exists because you "see" it...although apparently not everyone sees what you see (which is why the fire analogy stinks....a house on fire isn't a matter of perspective)

No analogy is perfect.

3. You think that convincing others it exists will make it go away (which makes zero sense unless it's the fault of those people)

No, and that isn't even close to what I've actually said. But feel free to go back and review what I've said before, it won't change.

A good analogy for this problem is that when you hear scary noises at night...you think it's a ghost. I hear the same noises and say it's a creaky floorboard. You say you know it's a ghost because you've "seen" it and if you can just convince everyone in the house that it's a ghost...it will go away. However, there are always going to be rational people who will seek out the cause of a problem before jumping to conclusions.

Except that the problems faced by black people (and others) in this country are not imagined sounds at night, they're real and they affect their lives on a daily basis.

Fear the Walking Dead has a minority lead (I honestly don't know if he's latino, middle eastern, or what) but they could easily cast Ryan Reynolds and it wouldn't change a thing that I could think of.

Sure, things are changing, and that's a good thing. But any exceptions to what I said are recent, or are notable for being exceptions, like the Cosby Show back in the 80s.

So what's the goal? Is there supposed to be some balancing act where we make sure that whites, blacks, latinos, and asians all get equal time on movies and t.v.? Why? Does that mean we have a "better" society if we do?

If our culture reflects who we really are as people, that's better than if it only reflects part of us.

Why can't the best actor get the job?

They should. Idris Elba would make a fantastic James Bond, and Hayley Atwell would be amazing as The Doctor.

Think about the contradictions in that statement. If it's not my fault...then why in the world would it be my responsibility?

I believe it's everyone's responsibility to leave the world a better place than they found it.

Hey AS2G, I know that 9/11 wasn't your fault...but from here on out, it's your responsibility lol.

It is my responsibility, and everyone's, to deal with the issue of terrorism. I agree.

You started off with black cop gets badge, black cop's entire worldview changes (which is rather funny), and ended with black cop sees black men as bad guys (which is racist even though you didn't use the word racist)

First, I never said anyone's entire worldview changes. Second, I didn't use the word "racist" for a very specific reason.

The irony is that you're making police into this singular-minded group based upon your own stereotypes. It's exactly what you don't want the police to do to blacks.

Not even close to what I said.

Police don't determine guilt....that's what a jury of your peers is for.

Yeah, I've seen Law and Order once or twice too.

Fact is, cops do work to apprehend those they feel are guilty of a crime...even as they know it's up to the courts to prove them guilty.

They don't assign race to suspects either...they just go off what the victims say. If you don't understand the process at all....watch a show called "the first 48". They follow detectives around as they try to solve homicides etc. At no point do you ever hear them say, "let's just pin this on a black guy"

And at no point did I ever say they did.

Frankly, I have my own problems to deal with. Since you agree this isn't my fault, I suggest that you find out who's fault it is and have them deal with it. That, or the people who think it's a problem can solve it.

And I'm still not interested in finding someone at "fault" for these issues which go back several generations.

Who's talking about "all"? You said it's a flawed conclusion to say that blacks commit more crimes than whites....even if more are convicted of crimes. Logic would actually dictate they are committing more crimes. We've even got studies showing that they commit violent crimes at a higher rate than whites.

Here's exactly what I said: "I think it's a complicated issue, but to simplify it for a moment, if more black people are being arrested than whites, the assumption is that black people are more likely to be criminals than white people. It's a flawed conclusion, but it happens."

I suppose that depends on the cause of the pattern. Is it because the "white man" is holding you down and you've got no way to get ahead? Or is it because you chose a life of crime which seemed more attractive than working hard to improve your position in life?

Do you see the relevance of finding out that cause yet?

I understand the relevance, but I still believe it's more important to find a better way going forward.

Then I suggest we start repeating the idea that white privilege doesn't exist. Eventually, people will embrace that idea and find solutions to their problems instead of complaining that society has to change.

Yeah, because ignoring our problems always makes people want to fix them.

This sounds like a personal problem. If you're so weak-willed that you let everyone else define who you are....then good luck trying to get them to define you into someone successful.

When those assumptions dictate how you're treated and what opportunities are open to you, then it becomes an uphill battle fighting them to get past them. And sometimes, even if you do get past them, they're still there. When you don't have to deal with assumptions like that, it's hard to see how difficult it makes things.

Well if it's not anyone's fault...then the only person who can change is the one with the problem.

Which is why people who are victims of earthquakes or tidal waves are the only ones who should deal with them. They're the ones with the problem after all, not the rest of us.

I'm genuinely surprised. That's something that doesn't happen to me on C.F. too often.

Oh don't worry, I'm plenty sarcastic a lot of the time. That was one of the rare times I wasn't.

It does...and it is. Best estimates put police interactions with the public in the hundreds of millions every year. Out of those hundreds of millions...between 1000-2000 ended in the civilian being killed. Out of those 1000-2000....how many were illegal killings? A handful? When you look at the sheer numbers of it...that's a rather outstanding performance by the police.

One that could be better still. I'd much rather see that 1000-2000 number be a heck of a lot closer to zero.

Which is odd...because it should. Michael Brown was a criminal by choice...he had an opportunity for a successful life outside of crime. Instead he decided to attack a cop...a public servant. He shouldn't have been the inspiration for some movement against police violence....he should've inspired black parents to teach their children not to be like him.

I'm not going to debate Ferguson all over again. Suffice to say, that whole tragedy brought many problems to light, and we need to remember the lessons that came from that day going forward.

Why should I change my attitude if this isn't my fault? Expect to hear a lot more of that until you're ready to tell us what this is all about.

Sigh.

And you wonder why I'm not all that interested in finding fault?

I remember seeing one case where a black man was shot in the back after assaulting a cop....which is wrong. I remember another case where a man was shot with his hands up after assaulting a cop....which also appears wrong. I remember another case in Chicago where there was some cover-up involved. There are definitely examples of police shootings that shouldn't have happened...but examples where the suspect didn't attack the police or resist in any way I could probably count on one hand.

I guess that depends on how you define "resist." Take Eric Garner as an example.

But, I don't want to get caught up in dueling examples. If you want to dismiss the experiences of people who see things differently than you do, there's not much I can do about it.

I don't know any that treat any race differently. I know that goes against your stereotypes...and I'm sure some exist (after all, they are people)...but I don't know any personally.

Okay then.

Lol yea...when we've solved that. Again, how many threads and conversations have you seen regarding police conduct with blacks vs how many you've seen regarding black conduct with police? I've seen dozens of the first kind....zero of the second. We can't solve this "problem" from only one side of the equation.

I've seen discussions about both in many different places.

Weren't you just blaming police for being racist against non-whites a moment ago?

Nope.

I'm not assuming anything...I'm just considering the possibility since I've seen it, a lot. I wouldn't make a judgment without hearing both sides....which isn't likely to happen in this case.

Not making judgments is a good thing, I guess. But part of "white privilege" is being able to not see that the US has a lot of problems when it comes to racial issues.

-- A2SG, can't say much beyond that.....

 

[Ana the Ist]

Not really, since that entire story shows how easily everyone believed his story. Even to this day, I hear people claim Chuck was framed.

-- A2SG, imagine if the races were reversed, how different that story would have been.....

Was that the point you were making? I thought it had something to do with vague descriptions....

 

[A2SG]

Page 15 I gave an example of some of the racism I face. Feel free to comment.

No thanks.

-- A2SG, but thanks for the example, nonetheless.....

 

[tatteredsoul]

Not strictly true: I understand many of the root causes, even though I fully admit there are many factors that come into play. What I've said, instead, is that I'm not as interested in causes as I am in solutions.



No analogy is perfect.



No, and that isn't even close to what I've actually said. But feel free to go back and review what I've said before, it won't change.



Except that the problems faced by black people (and others) in this country are not imagined sounds at night, they're real and they affect their lives on a daily basis.



Sure, things are changing, and that's a good thing. But any exceptions to what I said are recent, or are notable for being exceptions, like the Cosby Show back in the 80s.



If our culture reflects who we really are as people, that's better than if it only reflects part of us.



They should. Idris Elba would make a fantastic James Bond, and Hayley Atwell would be amazing as The Doctor.



I believe it's everyone's responsibility to leave the world a better place than they found it.



It is my responsibility, and everyone's, to deal with the issue of terrorism. I agree.



First, I never said anyone's entire worldview changes. Second, I didn't use the word "racist" for a very specific reason.



Not even close to what I said.



Yeah, I've seen Law and Order once or twice too.

Fact is, cops do work to apprehend those they feel are guilty of a crime...even as they know it's up to the courts to prove them guilty.



And at no point did I ever say they did.



And I'm still not interested in finding someone at "fault" for these issues which go back several generations.



Here's exactly what I said: "I think it's a complicated issue, but to simplify it for a moment, if more black people are being arrested than whites, the assumption is that black people are more likely to be criminals than white people. It's a flawed conclusion, but it happens."



I understand the relevance, but I still believe it's more important to find a better way going forward.



Yeah, because ignoring our problems always makes people want to fix them.



When those assumptions dictate how you're treated and what opportunities are open to you, then it becomes an uphill battle fighting them to get past them. And sometimes, even if you do get past them, they're still there. When you don't have to deal with assumptions like that, it's hard to see how difficult it makes things.



Which is why people who are victims of earthquakes or tidal waves are the only ones who should deal with them. They're the ones with the problem after all, not the rest of us.



Oh don't worry, I'm plenty sarcastic a lot of the time. That was one of the rare times I wasn't.



One that could be better still. I'd much rather see that 1000-2000 number be a heck of a lot closer to zero.



I'm not going to debate Ferguson all over again. Suffice to say, that whole tragedy brought many problems to light, and we need to remember the lessons that came from that day going forward.



Sigh.

And you wonder why I'm not all that interested in finding fault?



I guess that depends on how you define "resist." Take Eric Garner as an example.

But, I don't want to get caught up in dueling examples. If you want to dismiss the experiences of people who see things differently than you do, there's not much I can do about it.



Okay then.



I've seen discussions about both in many different places.



Nope.



Not making judgments is a good thing, I guess. But part of "white privilege" is being able to not see that the US has a lot of problems when it comes to racial issues.

-- A2SG, can't say much beyond that.....

The fact that AA exist - that something like that has to exist, like EEO - should be a huge piece of evidence highlighting this.

 

[A2SG]

Was that the point you were making? I thought it had something to do with vague descriptions....

It was part of it. From what I remember, Stuart's more detailed description came later, after the manhunt had started. After some started to doubt his story.

-- A2SG, but it was a long time ago, I admit my memory may be a little fuzzy.....

 

[A2SG]

The fact that AA exist - that something like that has to exist, like EEO - should be a huge piece of evidence highlighting this.

Sorry, could you be more specific about what you're referring to? You quoted a rather lengthy response of mine.

-- A2SG, admit I can be wordy sometimes....

 

[tatteredsoul]

"Not making judgments is a good thing, I guess. But part of "white privilege" is being able to not see that the US has a lot of problems when it comes to racial issues."

Just that actually...

 

[A2SG]

"Not making judgments is a good thing, I guess. But part of "white privilege" is being able to not see that the US has a lot of problems when it comes to racial issues."

Just that actually...

AA = Affirmative Action? I'm not sure what EEO refers to, sorry.

-- A2SG, not up on all my acronyms I guess....

 

[Paidiske]

AA = Affirmative Action? I'm not sure what EEO refers to, sorry.

-- A2SG, not up on all my acronyms I guess....

Equal employment opportunity, I think.

For what it's worth, I'm not keen on quotas and the like either; I think it can lead to tokenism. But I can also see how it can help break open a bit of a "closed shop," so I'm open to it in some situations.

 

[A2SG]

Equal employment opportunity, I think.

For what it's worth, I'm not keen on quotas and the like either; I think it can lead to tokenism. But I can also see how it can help break open a bit of a "closed shop," so I'm open to it in some situations.

I agree they are imperfect solutions, but at least they're ideas that can head us in the right direction. For those who disagree with either one, I suggest they come up with better ideas.

-- A2SG, and there the conversation usually ends....but it needn't have to....

 

[tatteredsoul]

AA = Affirmative Action? I'm not sure what EEO refers to, sorry.

-- A2SG, not up on all my acronyms I guess....

EEO = equal employment opportunity.

AA and EEO are the main and most tolerant (un)spoken ways of admitting the incredible social problems existent without having to directly address the problems to fix them.

This is why the OP and racism discussions have the common ones that either deny its existence by pointing to a marginal gain as a collosal step, or simply ignore it.

Interestingly enough, those who point to marginal gains (convolutd statistics, half black president, 1/9 supreme court representation, welfare lol...yes welfare) are only capable of providing myopic solutions for which they can't for the life of them understand why people dont readily agree. The ones who just ignore it usually just attack the individual.

 

[tatteredsoul]

Equal employment opportunity, I think.

For what it's worth, I'm not keen on quotas and the like either; I think it can lead to tokenism. But I can also see how it can help break open a bit of a "closed shop," so I'm open to it in some situations.

I am more or less indifferent. It is a nice water proof Bandaid for a broken femur but if real problem isnt addressed, society will suffer from an embolism. Well, the fat is rolling to clog vessel now...

 

[nightflight]

I am more or less indifferent. It is a nice water proof Bandaid for a broken femur but if real problem isnt addressed, society will suffer from an embolism. Well, the fat is rolling to clog vessel now...

Amputation?