"On White Privilege"

[Ken-1122]

If the things you mention are not significant factors, then why are you mentioning them? What's really happened here is you've given a tired argument about personal responsibility using stereotypical depictions of African Americans.

*The fact that over 70% of black children are born into a single parent household is a significant factor
*The fact that within some black circles, a professional attitude or even trying to get good grades in school is seen as acting white, or selling out, is a significant problem
*The fact that there is a lifestyle that glamorizes behaviors that often lead to prison or death at an early age is a significant problem

Do these problems apply to most black people? No. But then neither does predatory lending, stop and frisk practices by police, and the other issues you brought up apply to most black people either.

My point is, both are significant problems and both problems need to be addressed.


Ken

 

[SummerMadness]

*The fact that over 70% of black children are born into a single parent household is a significant factor

Out of wedlock does not mean single parent household. Which populations are most involved with their children?

Fathers' Involvement with Their Children: United States, 2006–2010

Sometimes tired racist arguments don't address the complexity of some issues.

*The fact that within some black circles, a professional attitude or even trying to get good grades in school is seen as acting white, or selling out, is a significant problem

Something you have failed to quantify, nothing more than parroting an old stereotype. Next thing you'll tell me how they're wearing baggy jeans.

*The fact that there is a lifestyle that glamorizes behaviors that often lead to prison or death at an early age is a significant problem

Another thing you've failed to quantify, just say it's a fact, that'll do!

Do these problems apply to most black people? No. But then neither does predatory lending, stop and frisk practices by police, and the other issues you brought up apply to most black people either.

You are making an argument for personal responsibility, so you must have a way of demonstrating how sizable this issue is... you did not do that at all. My argument has been that there are discriminatory policies that disproportionately affect African Americans, it's not about whether the policies affect most people, it's about the probability that it affects them. You are arguing something else, you're talking about the population itself, but have failed to quantify anything you say is endemic to a specific population. It's nothing more than tired racist stereotypes.

My point is, both are significant problems and both problems need to be addressed.

You can't describe something as significant if you can't quantify it. Stats 101. "I did not provide any statistics!" And that's exactly the problem.

 

[dogs4thewin]

My great grandmother was a slave, but beyond that point the promises made to freed slaves was NEVER seen through. In fact, a lot of freed slaves were swindled back into slavery through egregious taxING and phantom debt.

So, it can't be trusted that even if the newest generation was "owed" something they would receive anything. There are people alive today whose parents were present when strange fruit was made, when dogs were sent to devour black protesters, when men were beaten for no reason, and women were raped, when churches and institutions were burned down.

Racism and the violence that came with ithe did not happen 10,000 years ago. The same people who were raised by parents who were celebrating blacks getting killed and raped are the same parents teaching their progeny the same hate and stereotypical claptrap - and they taught it to their progeny.

So are you supposing that all whites supported such actions?

 

[tatteredsoul]

So are you supposing that all whites supported such actions?

If you ignored what happened, then you are just as guilty.

If you see the injustice, did not participate, but also did nothing to speak out about it, it is just as bad.

It isn't hard to go on twitter, or on this website and see that a lot of people support and condone the egregious actions that have befallen black men and women for several centuries. And, let's not forget that it was only 50 years ago black men were torn to shreds by dogs and fire hoses.

Before I went to college there were several stories about black men getting dragged and beaten to death because of their ethnicity, and women raped and beaten. It is still going on, which is why it is such an irresponsible and disrespectful slap in the face when people who suffer from socioeconomic myopia have the audacity to say these social injustices spoken about do not exist.

You don't need 100% of the population supporting the actions of racism and social injustice. Look at how black people are treated; in America a black person is allegedly inundated in thug culture, violent, brutish, marginally intelligent, unprofessional, dirty, threatening, weirdly named, loud, racist (lol...), poor and so much more.

Of course, not all black people are like the above - likely not even 10% of the population. That still doesn't stop people from stereotyping the entire group because a few fit the qualifications.

 

[dogs4thewin]

If you ignored what happened, then you are just as guilty.

If you see the injustice, did not participate, but also did nothing to speak out about it, it is just as bad.

It isn't hard to go on twitter, or on this website and see that a lot of people support and condone the egregious actions that have befallen black men and women for several centuries. And, let's not forget that it was only 50 years ago black men were torn to shreds by dogs and fire hoses.

Before I went to college there were several stories about black men getting dragged and beaten to death because of their ethnicity, and women raped and beaten. It is still going on, which is why it is such an irresponsible and disrespectful slap in the face when people who suffer from socioeconomic myopia have the audacity to say these social injustices spoken about do not exist.

You don't need 100% of the population supporting the actions of racism and social injustice. Look at how black people are treated; in America a black person is allegedly inundated in thug culture, violent, brutish, marginally intelligent, unprofessional, dirty, threatening, weirdly named, loud, racist (lol...), poor and so much more.

Of course, not all black people are like the above - likely not even 10% of the population. That still doesn't stop people from stereotyping the entire group because a few fit the qualifications.

Well, it may have been 50 years ago, but I am only just under half that. As for how black people are treated today I have known many black people over my 24.5+ years some of whom I respect more than I respect some white people I know and some of whom I do not respect because of their PERSONAL actions towards both others and myself.

 

[tatteredsoul]

Well, it may have been 50 years ago, but I am only just under half that. As for how black people are treated today I have known many black people over my 24.5+ years some of whom I respect more than I respect some white people I know and some of whom I do not respect because of their PERSONAL actions towards both others and myself.

That is neither here or there concerning how black people are treated in the world, especially in the states.

I know plenty of white people who are gung-ho for social injustice prevention, intelligent and sincere. I also know and know of plenty of malicious, disrespectful, dangerously ignorant and violent white persons.

However, put a black man and white man in a suit, with a clean shave, and the sake qualifications, and see who gets a job first. Compare a white 20ish male wearing a Hoodie with his hands in his pocket entering a department store with a black make in jeans that fit, and a nice Polo shirt. See who gets followed in the store. So many times I have been profiled wearing business casual attire, while someone else is robbing the store blind.

The problem is this thread isn't judging by a person basis; it is judging on a stereotypical basis, especially those commenting from different countries. The claptrap about black culture being gang, thug, criminal, unintelligent, scary, intimidating derelicts is exported around the world. That isnt reality, and you can tell those out of touch with reality when they retort and huff when a black person wins in a predominately "white"sport (like calling Serena Williams a man, yet the irony is Sharapova was the one doing drugs.) The huffs especially happen when a black person gets into ivy leagues (or college in general,) and overall is successful BEYOND the ways the social paradigm has set it up for blacks.

I have a physics degree from am Ivy league school with honors on thesis, I have never been to jail, no warrants, no children out of wedlock, no ex wives, I do missions, and a whole lot of other stuff... I am nowhere near the "exception" to the "rule;" minorities are much more complex, driven, and multifaceted than the Western narrative would paint them.

And, 50 years is not long at all; as said before, the people who enjoyed lynching and sending dogs to devour black people have children alive today, who are teaching their children the same hate - or teaching them to ignore everything and pretend the sins of the past don't exist.

 

[dogs4thewin]

That is neither here or there concerning how black people are treated in the world, especially in the states.

I know plenty of white people who are gung-ho for social injustice prevention, intelligent and sincere. I also know and know of plenty of malicious, disrespectful, dangerously ignorant and violent white persons.

However, put a black man and white man in a suit, with a clean shave, and the sake qualifications, and see who gets a job first. Compare a white 20ish male wearing a Hoodie with his hands in his pocket entering a department store with a black make in jeans that fit, and a nice Polo shirt. See who gets followed in the store. So many times I have been profiled wearing business casual attire, while someone else is robbing the store blind.

The problem is this thread isn't judging by a person basis; it is judging on a stereotypical basis, especially those commenting from different countries. The claptrap about black culture being gang, thug, criminal, unintelligent, scary, intimidating derelicts is exported around the world. That isnt reality, and you can tell those out of touch with reality when they retort and huff when a black person wins in a predominately "white"sport (like calling Serena Williams a man, yet the irony is Sharapova was the one doing drugs.) The huffs especially happen when a black person gets into ivy leagues (or college in general,) and overall is successful BEYOND the ways the social paradigm has set it up for blacks.

I have a physics degree from am Ivy league school with honors on thesis, I have never been to jail, no warrants, no children out of wedlock, no ex wives, I do missions, and a whole lot of other stuff... I am nowhere near the "exception" to the "rule;" minorities are much more complex, driven, and multifaceted than the Western narrative would paint them.

And, 50 years is not long at all; as said before, the people who enjoyed lynching and sending dogs to devour black people have children alive today, who are teaching their children the same hate - or teaching them to ignore everything and pretend the sins of the past don't exist.

In that case, it will never stop because the generations will just keep teaching their children that. I am young and do not know much about life, but HAVE figured out by now that there are good people and bad people in this world. There always have been and there always will be, so it will just keep getting passed down.

 

[tatteredsoul]

In that case, it will never stop because the generations will just keep teaching their children that. I am young and do not know much about life, but HAVE figured out by now that there are good people and bad people in this world. There always have been and there always will be, so it will just keep getting passed down.

It may never be 100% resolved the tensions and history of behaviors, but I think it would be a cop out to throw hands in the air and continue to perpetuate the same claptrap. Someone has to break the cycle.

This is where PRIVILEGE comes in: as you said, it will continue on because it doesn't bother the people as much as it bothers minorities. There is no incentive to change their behavior over generations especially when the game is in their favor. Moreover, as they become more and more removed from the social injustices (because it is taught at acceptable throughout the generations, and substantiated with stereotypes,) the burden is heavier and heavier on minorities who go through the oppression everyday. Then, these same people who remain ignorant of this have the nerve to tell minorities to stop complaining while doing nothing to change their behavior.

So, when one reread this entire thread, it is easy to see these types of mentalities in full view. From complete denial to downright disdain substantiated with antedilluvian stereotypes.

If the time to truly understand the problem was utilized instead of ignoring it, pretending it doesn't exist or blaming the victims, maybe these people wouldn't feel like their "race" is under genocide everytime a family browner than a paper grocery bag moves into the neighborhood/sports/schools. That fear is due to guilt of consciousness, not "white" guilt. Indeed, it is projection, seeing as they were the ones who historically committed genocide upon several native populations around the planet.

 

[Ana the Ist]

In a previous post, you made an statement saying "without reading the study," but it's important to read the study to understand their point about uncertainty. The uncertainty about whether they can determine who is favored is only made because they can't rule out a theoretical judge, where "unobservable case characteristics dictated that an unbiased racial gap in sentencing would be 50 percent. In this case, heterogeneity in the race gap between 20 and 50 percent would indicate a great deal of favoritism toward African Americans, not discrimination."

This is just a long way of saying that due to limitations of the study, they can't show whether the race factor favors whites or blacks.

The study is not saying there is no favorability, they just cannot rule it out with their given study, to which they propose ways to address this. In addition, the heterogeneity of their distribution shows that there is an increase in the racial gap when changing the percentile of judges, this gap should not increase, that's the point.

They proposed ways to do this...yet they didn't and explained why.

They did find a difference in incarceration rates...but not the sentencing. I've seen other studies that try to explain why black incarceration rates are higher (one proposed it's a result of blacks not taking plea deals more often than whites, something that I don't recall this study controlling for)...but I'm not going to post study after study when you have yet to post just one. You made several claims that blacks are sentenced unfairly, and I asked you to provide evidence in the form of a study just like you asked me.

I'm still waiting.

 

[Ana the Ist]

By "thug life" do you mean gang culture? Or just crime in general?

I don't know, I don't see a lot of glamorising of either of those things, except perhaps in contexts where people are in poverty and desperate, and don't see alternatives. Would providing alternative pathways out of poverty and desperation take some of the shine off the "glamour"?

I don't know how hard you're looking...but it's everywhere from movies to rap music. I've seen multiple young black boys who look at prison the way they should be looking at a college degree. It's a badge of honor, a way of getting respect. These kids look at the movie Scarface like it's a career plan.

Yet we don't really talk about this. The Michael Brown shooting is a prime example. This kid's parents talked about him as if he was an angel...a law abiding young man who was looking forward to going to some sort of higher education.

That's the narrative that the media adopted as well. It's far from the truth. He was a boy who liked to use illegal drugs. He was a criminal who decided to fight a cop and try to take his gun (a fact proven by forensics). When he realized the cop wasn't going to give up, he decided to try to attack him again and got killed for it.

I don't really blame his parents for trying to make him out better than he was...but why did the whole community lie for him? All kinds of lies were told about the cop "trying to pull him into the police car"...a story so absurd one wonders if the person who first made it up was high too. His friend who was right next to him lied. People who didn't even witness the event were willing to lie and say that the police officer had walked up and shot Brown's body as he lay in the street.

Why do you think that is? A whole community willing to lie to protect the criminal who preyed upon local businesses. A whole community willing to lie to get a public servant....a man who never had been accused of anything including excessive force or racist statements...not only fired from his job but thrown in jail.

They just recently had an incident in Chicago where a young man fled from police and tried to shoot them. A young man who's family and the media tried to pretend was completely innocent of all wrongdoing. A young man who's Facebook page began with a picture of him posing with his gun talking about killing n-words. You can't think his parents are so naive that they really believed the nonsense they lied about. They must've at least looked at his Facebook page and his gang tattoos and realized what was going on.

I don't see personal responsibility as a conversation we can't have as a community. It's just a conversation no one wants to have. No one wants to tell these parents they should've made a bigger effort to get their children out of a lifestyle of crime. No one wants to tell these parents that the reason their children are dead is because they wanted to be criminals....not because they were black or cops are evil.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Isn't there a difference between recognizing that progress has been made and using the fact that progress has been made to try to shut down or ridicule those who try to make even more progress because "things aren't bad now/everybody's equal" or whatever -- that point having been made by several people in this thread who use it as a justification to say that they're basically sick of hearing minorities talking about any of this stuff anymore...

Who said that everybody's equal?

 

[dzheremi]

User "NothingIsImpossible" did, in post 167 of this thread.

 

[dogs4thewin]

It may never be 100% resolved the tensions and history of behaviors, but I think it would be a cop out to throw hands in the air and continue to perpetuate the same claptrap. Someone has to break the cycle.

This is where PRIVILEGE comes in: as you said, it will continue on because it doesn't bother the people as much as it bothers minorities. There is no incentive to change their behavior over generations especially when the game is in their favor. Moreover, as they become more and more removed from the social injustices (because it is taught at acceptable throughout the generations, and substantiated with stereotypes,) the burden is heavier and heavier on minorities who go through the oppression everyday. Then, these same people who remain ignorant of this have the nerve to tell minorities to stop complaining while doing nothing to change their behavior.

So, when one reread this entire thread, it is easy to see these types of mentalities in full view. From complete denial to downright disdain substantiated with antedilluvian stereotypes.

If the time to truly understand the problem was utilized instead of ignoring it, pretending it doesn't exist or blaming the victims, maybe these people wouldn't feel like their "race" is under genocide everytime a family browner than a paper grocery bag moves into the neighborhood/sports/schools. That fear is due to guilt of consciousness, not "white" guilt. Indeed, it is projection, seeing as they were the ones who historically committed genocide upon several native populations around the planet.

You cannot blame race. I cannot stand when people play the race card. Things happen to blacks because they commit crimes. Those who do not usually will not be locked up because they cannot just arrest you for being black and no I do not support affirmtive action either. If the black is the best person for the job hire him or her. If not then do not color has NOTHING to do with whether someone can do the job.

 

[tatteredsoul]

You cannot blame race. I cannot stand when people play the race card. Things happen to blacks because they commit crimes. Those who do not usually will not be locked up because they cannot just arrest you for being black and no I do not support affirmtive action either. If the black is the best person for the job hire him or her. If not then do not color has NOTHING to do with whether someone can do the job.

And there it is, as already laid out and explained...

Thanks for saving both of us 20 pages of back and forth.

 

[dogs4thewin]

And there it is, as already laid out and explained...

Thanks for saving both of us 20 pages of back and forth.

There what is?

 

[SummerMadness]

And there it is, as already laid out and explained...

Thanks for saving both of us 20 pages of back and forth.

I think the operative attitude is to believe black people are everything they see in rap music or a movie about gangs, and when explained this is not true, when shown statistics that say otherwise, they ignore it and continue to make the same arguments. Like "thug life" is a big problem. From the MBA graduate being passed over for promotion to the guy in khakis and a polo shirt being searched and checked for warrants. The issue is their behavior as opposed to the racist attitudes that generalizes them to a stereotype.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I think the operative attitude is to believe black people are everything they see in rap music or a movie about gangs, and when explained this is not true, when shown statistics that say otherwise, they ignore it and continue to make the same arguments. Like "thug life" is a big problem. From the MBA graduate being passed over for promotion to the guy in khakis and a polo shirt being searched and checked for warrants. The issue is their behavior as opposed to the racist attitudes that generalizes them to a stereotype.

I did NOT say that. Again, I have known plenty of blacks and some of them I respect more than I respect many white people, I know.

 

[tatteredsoul]

I think the operative attitude is to believe black people are everything they see in rap music or a movie about gangs, and when explained this is not true, when shown statistics that say otherwise, they ignore it and continue to make the same arguments. Like "thug life" is a big problem. From the MBA graduate being passed over for promotion to the guy in khakis and a polo shirt being searched and checked for warrants. The issue is their behavior as opposed to the racist attitudes that generalizes them to a stereotype.

I went to Spain in high school as an educational tour. While standing with our group, two Spanish youths (teens/20s) passed by me and my friends and said, "wuzup my n**ga!" I didn't think too much of it, because even at that age, I knew much more negativity about blacks was exported around the world than accomplishments and positivity. What really got me was that my chaperone said, "maybe they said that because you are wearing a hoodie." Then she caught/bit her tongue...

It was early spring in Spain. The temperature was at a high of 50 degrees; but to this chaperone, me looking how I look, and me wearing appropriate attire for the weather was enough. The hoodie was open, and I was wearing a very nice Polo shirt under it. Didn't matter. And to think my parents got me that jacket not because they wanted me to look like a thug, but because it was simply cold in Spain at that time.

I didn't fault the Spanish guys because as said, they work with the bull exported to them about minorities in America. But, my American chaperone making that type of statement? I don't even think she realized what she did besides a superficial opinion. This more than a decade ago... same stuff, different year.

 

[SummerMadness]

I did NOT say that. Again, I have known plenty of blacks and some of them I respect more than I respect many white people, I know.

Okay, you know black people you like and those you don't like, that doesn't stop the fact that racial discrimination is still a measurable problem in out society.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Okay, you know black people you like and those you don't like, that doesn't stop the fact that racial discrimination is still a measurable problem in out society.

Maybe so but I cannot control what OTHER people do. I can only control how I feel about people. That was my point. I PERSONALLY judge based on the PERSON not their color not their religion, and the VAST majority of people I know treat race the same way. I cannot control how other people feel and whether other people are racist, sexist or whatever else.