On the value of Vaccines.

[Billy UK]

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[Subduction Zone]

Why do you believe you have the right to decide such things ?

Will you choose to put those with compromised immune systems at risk if you go out during next years flu season and move around freely as you choose ? Why do you have the right to do that ?

Try to avoid strawman arguments are false accusations. I obviously could not decide something like that by myself. It would be the decision of society in general. People do have the right to protect themselves against the reckless. And it is an error to assume that those with a compromised immune system have one from their own bad actions. Some otherwise very healthy people have died from Corona Virus. The shutdowns did not happen due to my orders, though I do thank you for thinking that I am so powerful. They were due to the people that were elected to their positions. And not just in the U.S.. I have no power at all as to who are the leaders of countries outside of the U.S.. But as soon as I do have those powers you will be on of the first to know

 

[Subduction Zone]

The flu virus mutates every year and doges last year's flu shot regularly so how can you prove that vaccination against covid19 will be effective if a new strain arises.

It probably won't be. But once we know how to make the first vaccination we will probably be well on the way to treating the next outbreak.

Just as scientists know how to deal with the changing flu viruses we will hopefully be able to deal with a changing corona virus. Though we may be lucky. This still could be a one shot deal. There are still too many unanswered questions. But a lack of answers is never an excuse not to do one's best to combat the disease.

 

[Billy UK]

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[Ophiolite]

What?

I think he means I think it is intelligent to believe in evolution, not that evolution is intelligent. His post structure can be ambiguous. At first I thought he was trolling. Now I think he probably voted for Brexit.

 

[Billy UK]

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[Billy UK]

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[expos4ever]

The Scientific studies show that nutrition does play a role with disease and Immuno response and prevention.

I would never deny this. But the scientific studies do not show that the nutrition approach is sufficiently efficacious (i.e. as good as, or better than vaccination).

Therefore those who preach to me that my choice to refuse vaccination is endangering others are themselves not practicing the ideology they are preaching if they are choosing to eat what they choose to. They are likewise putting the unvaccinated at risk through exercising their freewill.

This is quite misleading. If a vaccination is effective in preventing disease, and I get it, then I have arguably fulfilled my obligation to protect my fellow man and I can gorge on beer and cheeseburgers since I would only be hurting myself.

 

[Billy UK]

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[Subduction Zone]

The immune system is the mechanism even with vaccination that defines the outcome of survival.Lets say you get vaccinated while the current strain is still at largs


Can it be proven that these people were healthy ?

How can you prove the new vaccine will be safe considering that usually takes up to 20 years to prove its safety and efficiency. This should be done to prove that it does not make the body more susceptible to other illnesses which vaccines have at times done which resulted in a 5 fold death increase compared with the unvaccinated.


In relation to Authority well, let's say in America, you believe the Government has the power to be doing what they are doing right now if it be against the consent of the governed.

Declaration Of independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

I am sorry, but you do not understand the burden of proof or how it is applied. You ask pointless questions. Nor do you understand the Declaration of Independence or how it applies to society. They were not saying that everyone has their own consent in that quote.

Perhaps if you brought up one point at a time you might be able to make a cogent arguemnt.

 

[Subduction Zone]

They have never managed to create a working vaccine against a coronavirus in its differing strains. It is a completely new type of vaccine they are creating and cannot be compared to the flu shot to prove its effectivity or safety due to the fact that no proof exists. It cannot be proven that there are no adverse effects over time as time has not passed to determine these aspects which are meant to take many years to scientifically prove.

That may be. You need to support such a claim with a valid source. In fact I have my doubts about that claim. I will check to see if you are wrong, but until you provide a source you cannot properly claims to be right.

EDIT: Actually I did your homework for you and found that you are correct in this one claim:

"One major hitch in developing a COVID-19 vaccine is that no medically proven predecessor exists for any type of human coronavirus. This despite the fact that the 2002 SARS and 2012 MERS outbreaks, both caused by viral cousins of the new coronavirus, were warning shots that claimed about 1,600 lives."

Why a coronavirus vaccine could take way longer than a year

But that does not mean that it is impossible by any means. And it is also a red herring. You are opposed to a cure that does not exist yet and are peddling woo woo. Until we get a cure our best hope is modified behavior. And yes, like it or not you might have to obey the laws of the people.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I voted for my country to be able to govern itself.

It's best not to derail a thread by expressing my opinions on evolution. You have your own threads of incoherent ramblings to speak on such things. I will leave you with this image of one whom you believe to be a distant cousin who like yourself sometimes finds himself in deep thought.

View attachment 276772​

So you do deny reality. Odd that a Brit would quote from the Declaration of Independence. But that might explain how your lack of understanding of it. It is not a legal document as to the governing of the American people. It only dealt with Britain's attempt to rule over us. If you want a legal document for the U.S. people you should refer to the Constitution.

 

[Billy UK]

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[Hans Blaster]

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress ...

I think this is why many people are protesting in America is it not.

What does this have to do with the value of vaccines?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress ...

I think this is why many people are protesting in America is it not.

Some people are protesting. And that right still exists. But one can limit how closely people can crowd together. A crowd that did not maintain distance from one another could be said to not be "peaceable".

I am no fan of social distancing. I can see how it is needed right now. Tell me, what sort of assembly is allowed in Jolly Old right now?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's still not a useful definition in the context of this discussion. Using terms like "true health" doesn't help matters.

And if you have to fall back on "the only way to understand is..."-type arguments, that suggests that these terms have little relevant meaning to begin with.

Actually that's the only answer that makes sense for the individual. You don't ask the teacher what the textbook says, you study it for yourself. Same with health. You study it, then apply it and see what happens. If you are successful your health will improve and then you'll have a pretty good idea what health actually is. A note of caution. Obtaining health is not easy. It takes time, will power, and some sacrifice. And it is life changing, which is likely the reason so few want to become healthy.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If that is you in your avatar, I suggest you need to dial back on the healthy eating and the rest - your pelt is getting just a tad too glossy.

A glossy pelt is a healthy pelt.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

As others have argued, there is abundant evidence that shows that eating well and taking care of yourself is not enough to prevent certain viral infections.

We'll know one way or the other when all the testing is complete. There is a reason why so many are hardly affected by their exposure to coronavirus. I suspect it's because their immune systems are working pretty well. It is a fact that the overwhelming number of serious infections including deaths are among those with weak or compromised immune systems.

 

[pitabread]

Actually that's the only answer that makes sense for the individual. You don't ask the teacher what the textbook says, you study it for yourself. Same with health. You study it, then apply it and see what happens. If you are successful your health will improve and then you'll have a pretty good idea what health actually is. A note of caution. Obtaining health is not easy. It takes time, will power, and some sacrifice. And it is life changing, which is likely the reason so few want to become healthy.

In these discussions we're talking about health relative to populations. If you can't define "healthy" relative to a population, then any such discussion is moot.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

In these discussions we're talking about health relative to populations. If you can't define "healthy" relative to a population, then any such discussion is moot.

This is a good definition of health. However the role of the healthcare system in it is badly overstated.

What is health?: Defining and preserving good health