On the value of Vaccines.

[OldWiseGuy]

Apart from the comment on flatulence, that's reasonable advice; but it's not particularly scientific and doesn't answer the questions.

These are important findings of scientific research. There are no definitive answers per se. However the old maxim of 'how to sculpt an elephant' is close;

"You chip away everything that doesn't look like an elephant."

 

[Subduction Zone]

These are findings of scientific research.

If that is the case you should link them.

 

[createdtoworship]

What "baby"?

Using improper terminology is not wise. The fetal tissue used in vaccines was obtained in the early 1960's

Vaccine Ingredients – Fetal Tissues | Children's Hospital of Philadelphia

I am talking of a cow fetus, how do they get the cow fetal serum? I think I found all the information here:Bovine Derived Materials Questions and Answers

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am talking of a cow fetus, how do they get the cow fetal serum? I think I found all the information here:Bovine Derived Materials Questions and Answers

You were? Then why use the word "baby"? And in post #144 you asked about the fetal cells that were explained in the link that I provided.

 

[createdtoworship]

You were? Then why use the word "baby"? And in post #144 you asked about the fetal cells that were explained in the link that I provided.

I was under the impression that cow babies were being used in vaccines, or material, from 'aborted cows.'

so I was just wondering why they were using the word 'aborted' but the link I found did not say that aborted cows were used. But if you know of any more information please share. But for now the think you shared about human fetal cell use in vaccines, was really helpful. I bookmarked and used it to follow a few links.

 

[Radagast]

For example, I recently heard that measles would kill up to 15% of people infected.

For the United States from 1985 through 1992, the death rate from measles was about 0.2%. This is with the best possible medical care; in other countries the death rate can reach 25%.

And, of course, if we had a measles pandemic, all the hospitals would be full of measles cases, and the quality of care would drop.

And measles doesn't just cause death; complications include deafness, blindness, and brain damage. Measles is a leading cause of blindness in African children.

See Pinkbook | Measles | Epidemiology of Vaccine Preventable Diseases | CDC

 

[FredVB]

Vaccines and innocculating against epidemics and pandemics will not work effectively to eradicate pathogens in the long run, as they will still mutate and defy elimination. There will yet be more and more pathogens, as long as we generally are depending on animal agriculture, which continues only with our support with demand from products from it. It is where pathogens causing communicable social diseases spread to humans.

 

[A_Thinker]

Vaccines and innocculating against epidemics and pandemics will not work effectively to eradicate pathogens in the long run, as they will still mutate and defy elimination.

They already have worked, ridding the world of polio, diptheria, and smallpox, and nearly eliminating whooping cough and rubella.

 

[sesquiterpene]

Vaccines and innocculating against epidemics and pandemics will not work effectively to eradicate pathogens in the long run, as they will still mutate and defy elimination.

It depends on the pathogen - ones which have no hosts other than humans are prime candidates for complete eradication. Even measles, which is much more contagious than COVID19, was pretty much eliminated in the USA. It is only the antivaxx types which have allowed sporadic outbreaks to occur.

There will yet be more and more pathogens, as long as we generally are depending on animal agriculture, which continues only with our support with demand from products from it. It is where pathogens causing communicable social diseases spread to humans.

There are diseases that are spread by animals other than domesticated ones. Think Lyme disease, bubonic plague and malaria.

 

[Radagast]

Vaccines and innocculating against epidemics and pandemics will not work effectively to eradicate pathogens in the long run, as they will still mutate and defy elimination.

Well, they can. Smallpox has been exterminated, and several others could be. And when a disease is gone, it can no longer mutate.

as long as we generally are depending on animal agriculture, which continues only with our support with demand from products from it. It is where pathogens causing communicable social diseases spread to humans.

That was true thousands of years ago. It is not true today. The disease problems that we face in the future are primarily:

1. diseases that come from wild animals, like bats and monkeys.
2. fast-mutating RNA viruses like Covid-19 and influenza: these are constantly changing, so that we constantly need new influenza vaccines.

 

[sesquiterpene]

Well, they can. Smallpox has been exterminated, and several others could be. And when a disease is gone, it can no longer mutate.



That was true thousands of years ago. It is not true today. The disease problems that we face in the future are primarily:

1. diseases that come from wild animals, like bats and monkeys.
2. fast-mutating RNA viruses like Covid-19 and influenza: these are constantly changing, so that we constantly need new influenza vaccines.

I don't think Covid-19 is considered fast-mutating like influenza (and even influenza relies on recombination between multiple strains in animal hosts rather than mutations). This is good in regards to possible vaccines and antiviral drugs vs Covid-19.

 

[Radagast]

I don't think Covid-19 is considered fast-mutating like influenza

Yes, it is. Like influenza, it's an RNA virus: RNA virus - Wikipedia

 

[sesquiterpene]

Yes, it is. Like influenza, it's an RNA virus: RNA virus - Wikipedia

sfs - who actually studies these things for a living - has explained why COVID-19 doesn't mutate in the same way that the influenza virus does, making it a much less of a concern.We are mobilizing our military with the expectation of having a vaccine by the end of the year

 

[Radagast]

sfs - who actually studies these things for a living - has explained why COVID-19 doesn't mutate in the same way that the influenza virus does, making it a much less of a concern.

Either he's misinformed, or he expressed himself poorly.

Remember that COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2) is already a mutation out of the same stable as SARS-CoV-1 and MERS-CoV.

These viruses appear to derive initially from bats, crossing over from bats to mammals that are in turn in contact with humans. Being RNA viruses, the mutation rate for these viruses is very high.

In fact, COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2) has already mutated into dozens of slightly different strains. See the diagram in Virus Mutations Reveal How COVID-19 Really Spread

The high mutation rate makes it questionable how effective a vaccine will be.

 

[sesquiterpene]

Either he's misinformed, or he expressed himself poorly.

Remember that COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2) is already a mutation out of the same stable as SARS-CoV-1 and MERS-CoV.

These viruses appear to derive initially from bats, crossing over from bats to mammals that are in turn in contact with humans. Being RNA viruses, the mutation rate for these viruses is very high.

In fact, COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2) has already mutated into dozens of slightly different strains. See the diagram in Virus Mutations Reveal How COVID-19 Really Spread

The high mutation rate makes it questionable how effective a vaccine will be.

Sfs expressed himself quite clearly, so I don't know why you failed to grasp his points. I suggest you reread his post.

Just because it is an RNA virus doesn't mean a vaccine will be ineffective. Measles is also an RNA virus and yet we have been using the same vaccine for many years and it is still ~95% effective.

No one is saying the virus doesn't mutate - everything mutates. Sfs described the way that COVID19 is structured means that it won't be mutating - and recombining - in the way that influenza does that causes so many problems.

We don't have vaccines yet so we don't know how effective they might be. If one turns out to be as good as the measles vaccine, then eradication is possible, and mutations won't be an issue.

 

[Radagast]

Measles is also an RNA virus

Measles doesn't have a large animal reservoir, and also does not mutate rapidly

COVID-19 does have a large animal reservoir (among bats) and is mutating at around 26 substitutions per year (faster than influenza):

 

[sesquiterpene]

Measles doesn't have a large animal reservoir, and also does not mutate rapidly

COVID-19 does have a large animal reservoir (among bats) and is mutating at around 26 substitutions per year (faster than influenza)

Measles mutates rapidly enough, about 1.43 mutations per replication. It also had a large reservoir in people, because pretty much everyone in the world got measles at least once.

The reason influenza is a problem is because it recombines in reservoirs (swine and fowls, including migratory birds like ducks) that are in intimate contact with people. This differs from COVID19 by many orders of magnitude. We know this to be true, because we don't see new strains of SARS emerging every year like we do with influenza.

If a new strain of SARS emerges 15 years from now, hopefully our experience with the current virus will enable us to formulate a vaccine even quicker. But right now there doesn't seem to be any reason to worry about mutation rates.

 

[Radagast]

Measles mutates rapidly enough, about 1.43 mutations per replication. It also had a large reservoir in people, because pretty much everyone in the world got measles at least once.

A reservoir refers to a group of hosts in which the disease is replicating and circulating. In most of the world, measles is largely extinct.

We know this to be true, because we don't see new strains of SARS emerging every year like we do with influenza.

We've seen three serious coronaviruses in the past 18 years (SARS, MERS, and Covid-19) plus countless common-cold coronaviruses.

 

[sesquiterpene]

A reservoir refers to a group of hosts in which the disease is replicating and circulating. In most of the world, measles is largely extinct.

Yes, the once large reservoir of measles has been greatly reduced by a very effective vaccine for this DNA [edit: RNA not DNA] virus. Do you have a point?

We've seen three serious coronaviruses in the past 18 years (SARS, MERS, and Covid-19) plus countless common-cold coronaviruses.

Yes, much different than influenza, with multiple new strains circulating every year.
And you can count the number of strains of common-cold coronaviruses on one hand.

 

[sesquiterpene]

Well, to take the discussion back to something more relevant to this forum: the process of evolution can be an aid to us in making new vaccines. To get an effective vaccine you need to have one that produces antibodies that neutralize the virus, and one approach is to target the parts of the virus that are crucial for it to infect you. But these are also the parts that are likely to be most constrained by evolution - any mutational changes to the virus that might diminish the effectiveness of the vaccine are also likely to lessen the virus's ability to infect you, i.e make it less fit. It's a win/win situation.

Many vaccine researchers are targetting the COVID19 spike protein, and specifically the part of it called the receptor-binding domain (RBD) that attaches the human ACE2 in the very first step in the infection. The RBD is around 200 amino acid (AA) long, and the link below discusses a preprint of a truly amazing study: The researchers were able to synthesize almost all possible single AA mutations (3804 out of 3819!) in the RBD, and test their binding to ACE2. You can tunnel through the link to find heat maps that visualize the data. As to be expected the red (deleterious) areas greatly outnumber the blue advantageous ones, and of course there are many that are neutral. The In the Pipeline blog by Derek Lowe in the link is a good source for information, currently about COVID19, but in prior years the pharmaceutical industry in general.

A Wide Look at Coronavirus Mutants