On submission in the bible

[Messy]

JNot every marriage between Christians, even the conservative sort, are that bad.

No I guess not, I've just never seen a real good one in the churches I attended, while when I look at my unbelieving collegues, they're totally happy and my sister, my brother in law is just easy going, kind, she hates it to be controlled, no problem, equal relationship and both not christian.

 

[grandvizier1006]

Here's my two-cents on submission in marraige and such.

My opinion requires some background info: My mom is Lakota, my dad is from the backwoods of the Florida panhandle. From what he has said, we've figured out he grew up very fundamental Southern Baptist. He wanted to get as far away as possible and went to school at SDSU (South Dakota State) where he met my mother, and never went back. My mother, is Lakota, and traditionally, in our culture the women are the head of the house, but the men are the primary breadwinners. It's a maternal society, possessions are passed down maternally, you go to your wife's family, etc. While my mother's family is not super traditional, my grandmother is the matriarch. My mom is the leader of my immediate family. She's not, as someone either in this thread or the other said "feminist and bossy" about it, they're both very wise, nurturing, confident, strong women. If anything, I think women are better suited for it to be the leaders of the house and family than men. Women tend to be more relationally involved, caring, etc.

My mother did not grow up Christian, but is now very dedicated to her faith. Not long after we started attending, they did a sermon series about the Christian family, and when they got to the part about submission our pastor reminded everybody that just one verse before the "wives submit to husbands", everyone is called to submit to each other. He sort of took the stance of "equal, but complementary, and the husband has the final say". My older sister, mom, and I were out shopping that afternoon, and both old enough to know that what our pastor was talking about was not how our family does things. My older sister asks about that. My mom told both of us that part of what happened when man left the garden is that men were to rule over their wives, and it's just taken some people longer to move past that than others. I tell that story since that's still how I see the whole submission thing. We're all called to submit to each other, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, etc, there's not really a special kind of submission reserved solely for married women, and any kind of talk about one sex being above the other in some sort of hierarchical structure is living in the rules of the fall and not the rules of Heaven.

Sounds like your mother felt that the Bible's words on the subject sort of went against her culture. I think that's understandable, but I don't think the concept of submission in marriage has to necessarily go against family structures in a matriarchal culture. I don't think a woman managing a home or educating children or anything like that goes against the Bible, as long as the husband isn't disregarded or whatever.

 

[Goodbook]

I dont recall in timothy paul saying wives have to obey their husbands, i think he just said the women talked too much, if they had questions, they ought to ask their husbands at home. some women are chatterboxes. Ok most women.

 

[Cearbhall]

Mutual submission doesn't sound like submission at all to me, so I personally don't see the point in using that word to refer to an egalitarian relationship model. It's not very useful.

 

[grandvizier1006]

I dont recall in timothy paul saying wives have to obey their husbands, i think he just said the women talked too much, if they had questions, they ought to ask their husbands at home. some women are chatterboxes. Ok most women.

I think that maybe church structure was new and unorganized then. maybe people kept interrupting the pastor, and since women had previously, if they had been Jewish, not been allowed to learn about spiritual concepts due to being "too stupid" in the men's eyes, then maybe they'd ask more questions because they would never have learned much OT history giving context to everything Jesus did. that wasn't right, for them to be excluded like that before the early church, but people are sinful and tend to misinterpret things.

 

[Messy]

I dont recall in timothy paul saying wives have to obey their husbands, i think he just said the women talked too much, if they had questions, they ought to ask their husbands at home. some women are chatterboxes. Ok most women.

Paul also says it. Women obey your husbands in everything.

http://www.truediscipleship.com/bsub/subjects104.htm

 

[Blue Wren]

It is a pity. The baptist woman should be able to comment for herself as she is the only one who could really shed light on the truth of the situation. All others can only speculate. We don't know why others make choices until we walk a mile in their shoes.

Submission is a choice and I don't see it as negative in anyway. Unfortunately, all this social media about some people makes others draw the wrong conclusions about Christianity. It really is a pity. I've been discussing this with my youth pastor. I've been reevaluating my views on online evangelism.

I think, that sometimes it is Christians, who draw the wrong representations, of Christianity. People on my Facebook, I do not think, that they are drawing wrong conclusions, from what the lady wrote, no. The comments, that have been made, I think they are valid. I think the problem, is with the dysfunctional beliefs, and application, about submission, that this lady had written about.

There are positives, to truly Biblical submission, yes. This is when, the husband and the wife, they are both submitting. They are not abusing, or enabling abuse. It's naive, to me, to not recognise, that submission, it has lead to negatives, also. There's much, misunderstanding, misapplication, of it, that has lead to harm.

 

[Goodbook]

I thought it was women obey your husbands in the Lord. Not everything...
I may have to look up those verses in the context.

 

[Messy]

I think, that sometimes it is Christians, who draw the wrong representations, of Christianity. People on my Facebook, I do not think, that they are drawing wrong conclusions, from what the lady wrote, no. The comments, that have been made, I think they are valid. I think the problem, is with the dysfunctional beliefs, and application, about submission, that this lady had written about.

There are positives, to truly Biblical submission, yes. This is when, the husband and the wife, they are both submitting. They are not abusing, or enabling abuse. It's naive, to me, to not recognise, that submission, it has lead to negatives, also. There's much, misunderstanding, misapplication, of it, that has lead to harm.

I read a story of a woman who turned her back to God because she obeyed her abusive husband and they said it was her fault because she didn't protect her kids. Obedience is also when one partner isn't christian, so they get saved, but abuse is a Biblical reason to divorce. A man looked it up. It was in the O.T. His friend got shot by her abusive husband.

http://www.bethinking.org/bible/bible-scandals/5-marital-abuse

 

[Saricharity]

People on my Facebook, I do not think, that they are drawing wrong conclusions, from what the lady wrote, no. The comments, that have been made, I think they are valid. I think the problem, is with the dysfunctional beliefs, and application, about submission, that this lady had written about.

I haven't read your Facebook so I wouldn't know for sure but based on some of the things you have said, I highly doubt they have drawn correct conclusions at all. None of the beliefs or the application of beliefs are dysfunctional. I can assure you of that.

Edited because I would rather discuss it off forum.

 

[fromtheAsh]

I always heard it meant you will desire the position of your husband: to rule him, but he will rule over you

I've never heard that before.

Sounds like your mother felt that the Bible's words on the subject sort of went against her culture. I think that's understandable, but I don't think the concept of submission in marriage has to necessarily go against family structures in a matriarchal culture. I don't think a woman managing a home or educating children or anything like that goes against the Bible, as long as the husband isn't disregarded or whatever.

The men are defiantely not disregarded, but if you asked me "Who is the head of your house?" or "Who is in charge at your house?" I would answer my mother.

 

[Goodbook]

yea I think ppl have a wrong idea of what submission means and thats why all this abuse happens.

 

[HopeS746]

As singles, we dont have spouses to submit to, what do you think submission is? I think people have a wrong idea of what it is.

To me, submission means acknowldeging each other, like you would submit a letter or proposal for approval. To NOT be submissive would be like just ignoring that persons feelings and rushing ahead and doing your own thing. I dont think it means 'do what your told'. In a marriage both need to agree or at least acknowledge each other...because they are one flesh and making joint decisions.

I have never looked at it like this before it's a real eye-opener because before I have always just thought no I'm sorry but I don't agree with it even though people are like well it doesn't matter if you agree with it because gods decisions overrule you so thank you for helping me see it in a different way

 

[Blue Wren]

I haven't read your Facebook so I wouldn't know for sure but based on some of the things you have said, I highly doubt they have drawn correct conclusions at all. None of the beliefs or the application of beliefs are dysfunctional. I can assure you of that.

Edited because I would rather discuss it off forum.

You haven't read the comments, on my Facebook page, but you want to assume, that they haven't drawn correct conclusions? That has no logic. One of my friends, she went to theological college, at Oxford. I think, she has a very good understanding, about Biblical submission. She's written a lot, that is very knowledgeable. You have 17 years, yes? I think you know, a lot, yes, but perhaps, it's possible, you don't know it all. You cannot assure me, that none of the beliefs, or application of beliefs, about submission, in a Christian marriage, are dysfunctional, as there are far too many incidences, of dysfunction & harm. History, it is filled with cases, of abuse, mistreatment, etc, due to misunderstandings, of what submission, should truly be. True Biblical submission, as God intended, the ideal of it, many, have not achieved.

 

[Blue Wren]

I read a story of a woman who turned her back to God because she obeyed her abusive husband and they said it was her fault because she didn't protect her kids. Obedience is also when one partner isn't christian, so they get saved, but abuse is a Biblical reason to divorce. A man looked it up. It was in the O.T. His friend got shot by her abusive husband.

http://www.bethinking.org/bible/bible-scandals/5-marital-abuse

That is heart-breaking.

 

[Cearbhall]

The men are defiantely not disregarded, but if you asked me "Who is the head of your house?" or "Who is in charge at your house?" I would answer my mother.

Same.

 

[HopeS746]

No I guess not, I've just never seen a real good one in the churches I attended, while when I look at my unbelieving collegues, they're totally happy and my sister, my brother in law is just easy going, kind, she hates it to be controlled, no problem, equal relationship and both not christian.

You've most probably seen the wrong churches then

 

[HopeS746]

Same.

I lol third this my mum was always the one who dealt out the punishments and if I asked my dad for a biscuit he'd say ask your mother but that was because of his personality (now they are divorced but they married very young at like 19)

 

[Messy]

You've most probably seen the wrong churches then

Think so, but we also had those people. Always call my ex since he was the pastor. Pastor my husband doesn't put the garbage outside. Can you come over to tell him he has to? My goodness. I sat with a couple who later divorced once. I had no patience for that. And those were not bossy guys at all. My one said: yes he may use my car to go to his office if I don't need it.

 

[HopeS746]

Think so, but we also had those people. Always call my ex since he was the pastor. Pastor my husband doesn't put the garbage outside. Can you come over to tell him he has to? My goodness. I sat with a couple who later divorced once. I had no patience for that. And those were not bossy guys at all. My one said: yes he may use my car to go to his office if I don't need it.

I am really lucky to be in the church I'm in because there is worshiping God to worship him not exalt yourself. They are friendly, nice. They have nice couples and everyone knows each other.

However even my church has things I disagree with for example my mum sleeps with her boyfriend even though there not married and they would disagree with that, also they are the church that votes against gay marriage whereas if I could I would vote for a million times