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On submission in the bible
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Saricharity
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It is a pity. The baptist woman should be able to comment for herself as she is the only one who could really shed light on the truth of the situation. All others can only speculate. We don't know why others make choices until we walk a mile in their shoes.
Submission is a choice and I don't see it as negative in anyway. Unfortunately, all this social media about some people makes others draw the wrong conclusions about Christianity. It really is a pity. I've been discussing this with my youth pastor. I've been reevaluating my views on online evangelism.
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- Aug 3, 2014
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And sadly, if I may add to the above, that definitions of words in the Bible are not correctly defined. Worldly ones will view the word "submission" worldly, and Spiritual ones will view it as just that. Spiritual.
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Messy
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Submission is not spiritual. If my dad tells my mom she should leave God she doesn't have to listen. If he tells her something else in an unfriendly way she does. Lol the only woman I know who just submits and doesn't care. He used to treat her like dirt and she asked God to change him and He said: you change. Forgive, forget and submit.
Now he's sweet. He doesn't allow her to clean up after she cooked. That's his task.
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Messy
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Submission is so funny. First you can submit in everything to your husband. Then he dumps you because men hate submissive women and you can make his kids listen to you and act like a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] because boys never listen to those stupid women. Haha good joke God. And they wonder why I want to go to a nut house.
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- Jan 22, 2011
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I dont think submission is the exact same thing as 'obey'. Its two way.
Also, we submit to God..resisting the devil who flees from us.
To me it means, the husband comes first, like God does, in our lives over all others, since weve forsaken the rest if we are married wives. I think thats a good thing. But it ONLY works if the husband is a born again christian, and loving the wife like Jesus does. It will NEVER work otherwise.
Also, we submit to God..resisting the devil who flees from us.
To me it means, the husband comes first, like God does, in our lives over all others, since weve forsaken the rest if we are married wives. I think thats a good thing. But it ONLY works if the husband is a born again christian, and loving the wife like Jesus does. It will NEVER work otherwise.
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- Jan 22, 2011
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Thats why, ladies, be very careful who you accept as your huband. It would be terrible to submit to someone who was cruel, as men who arent believers will either try and dominate or they go the other extreme and want you to do everything cos they so lazy and abdicate responsibility.
Why the traditional vows say love, honor and obey im not sure..instead of submit. Submission implys that we have a relationship. Obey kind of puts us women in the place of children. When a child submits to his or her parents, it means they are honoring them but also they are willing. They not just doing what they told, they willingly submitting which means acknowledging their parents in their actions, like when we pray, we tell God the things we do.
Why the traditional vows say love, honor and obey im not sure..instead of submit. Submission implys that we have a relationship. Obey kind of puts us women in the place of children. When a child submits to his or her parents, it means they are honoring them but also they are willing. They not just doing what they told, they willingly submitting which means acknowledging their parents in their actions, like when we pray, we tell God the things we do.
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SnowyMacie
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Just a mere few verses earlier "Submit yourselves to one another". That's my opinion on the topic. Everyone submits to someone else at some point in their life. I was thinking about this yesterday at work in the concept of profession and such, and how everyone trades the roles constantly between customer and provider.
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- Aug 3, 2014
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Alrighty, bad choice of words. I meant Biblically speaking as in God's definition vs man's definition of the word.
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- Jan 22, 2011
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Thats why I contend people seem have a wrong idea on what submission really means. Also bible says we submit..to each other.
I think the bible emphasied wives toward their husbands because of Eve not doing that in the first instance.
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I think one thing needs to be pointed out here about marriage and submission and all that: even though it looks pretty darn sexist to us at first glance when the Bible asks wives to submit to their husbands, God was calling husbands to head a household--major responsibility. A Christian man couldn't just go off to a brothel or some all-consuming job and neglect his family. Plenty of men in this era just married to have children to pass on their businesses and names.
and wives being called to love their wives was pretty progressive as well. women were regarded as second-class citizens, inferior to men. in Jewish culture women were just property, and in Greece and Rome they were disregarded in favor of prostitutes or young men--basically all of the homosexual relationships of this time were just for sexual pleasure outside a marriage. women were just baby-making machines to some men.
a call for husbands to lead a family and actually love their wives was amazing for its time. and the saddest thing is that this message just gets disregarded today. I don't intend to derail the thread, but one common argument I heard in favor of gay marriage was "marriage in antiquity was done out of convenience as a means to rear children and pass down the family name". I think the idea being that it debunks the "marriage is sacred" argument from Christians.
while it is definitely true that marriage was a social contract back then and has always sort of been in some ways, the Christian view is that since Adam and Eve marriage was not supposed to just be that. It was supposed to be a union of love, a reflection of God's love for humanity that was powerful enough to create new life. And ironically some gay couples understood that aspect of marriage better than some Christians of the "submit means obey" variety. But that topic derails threads. I just wanted to give my 2 cents.
and wives being called to love their wives was pretty progressive as well. women were regarded as second-class citizens, inferior to men. in Jewish culture women were just property, and in Greece and Rome they were disregarded in favor of prostitutes or young men--basically all of the homosexual relationships of this time were just for sexual pleasure outside a marriage. women were just baby-making machines to some men.
a call for husbands to lead a family and actually love their wives was amazing for its time. and the saddest thing is that this message just gets disregarded today. I don't intend to derail the thread, but one common argument I heard in favor of gay marriage was "marriage in antiquity was done out of convenience as a means to rear children and pass down the family name". I think the idea being that it debunks the "marriage is sacred" argument from Christians.
while it is definitely true that marriage was a social contract back then and has always sort of been in some ways, the Christian view is that since Adam and Eve marriage was not supposed to just be that. It was supposed to be a union of love, a reflection of God's love for humanity that was powerful enough to create new life. And ironically some gay couples understood that aspect of marriage better than some Christians of the "submit means obey" variety. But that topic derails threads. I just wanted to give my 2 cents.
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SnowyMacie
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These are all excellent points, and I want to highlight the last one. Part of the curse in Genesis 3 is "your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." As Christians, we're called to live by the rules of Heaven, not the rules of Earth, and sometimes when I hear what Christians mean by the passage on submission, it sounds like they want and it's God's designed for men to rule over women when in fact, it was not, that's part of the curse, they want to live under the curse.
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fromtheAsh
That one girl from that one website.
Here's my two-cents on submission in marraige and such.
My opinion requires some background info: My mom is Lakota, my dad is from the backwoods of the Florida panhandle. From what he has said, we've figured out he grew up very fundamental Southern Baptist. He wanted to get as far away as possible and went to school at SDSU (South Dakota State) where he met my mother, and never went back. My mother, is Lakota, and traditionally, in our culture the women are the head of the house, but the men are the primary breadwinners. It's a maternal society, possessions are passed down maternally, you go to your wife's family, etc. While my mother's family is not super traditional, my grandmother is the matriarch. My mom is the leader of my immediate family. She's not, as someone either in this thread or the other said "feminist and bossy" about it, they're both very wise, nurturing, confident, strong women. If anything, I think women are better suited for it to be the leaders of the house and family than men. Women tend to be more relationally involved, caring, etc.
My mother did not grow up Christian, but is now very dedicated to her faith. Not long after we started attending, they did a sermon series about the Christian family, and when they got to the part about submission our pastor reminded everybody that just one verse before the "wives submit to husbands", everyone is called to submit to each other. He sort of took the stance of "equal, but complementary, and the husband has the final say". My older sister, mom, and I were out shopping that afternoon, and both old enough to know that what our pastor was talking about was not how our family does things. My older sister asks about that. My mom told both of us that part of what happened when man left the garden is that men were to rule over their wives, and it's just taken some people longer to move past that than others. I tell that story since that's still how I see the whole submission thing. We're all called to submit to each other, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, etc, there's not really a special kind of submission reserved solely for married women, and any kind of talk about one sex being above the other in some sort of hierarchical structure is living in the rules of the fall and not the rules of Heaven.
My opinion requires some background info: My mom is Lakota, my dad is from the backwoods of the Florida panhandle. From what he has said, we've figured out he grew up very fundamental Southern Baptist. He wanted to get as far away as possible and went to school at SDSU (South Dakota State) where he met my mother, and never went back. My mother, is Lakota, and traditionally, in our culture the women are the head of the house, but the men are the primary breadwinners. It's a maternal society, possessions are passed down maternally, you go to your wife's family, etc. While my mother's family is not super traditional, my grandmother is the matriarch. My mom is the leader of my immediate family. She's not, as someone either in this thread or the other said "feminist and bossy" about it, they're both very wise, nurturing, confident, strong women. If anything, I think women are better suited for it to be the leaders of the house and family than men. Women tend to be more relationally involved, caring, etc.
My mother did not grow up Christian, but is now very dedicated to her faith. Not long after we started attending, they did a sermon series about the Christian family, and when they got to the part about submission our pastor reminded everybody that just one verse before the "wives submit to husbands", everyone is called to submit to each other. He sort of took the stance of "equal, but complementary, and the husband has the final say". My older sister, mom, and I were out shopping that afternoon, and both old enough to know that what our pastor was talking about was not how our family does things. My older sister asks about that. My mom told both of us that part of what happened when man left the garden is that men were to rule over their wives, and it's just taken some people longer to move past that than others. I tell that story since that's still how I see the whole submission thing. We're all called to submit to each other, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, etc, there's not really a special kind of submission reserved solely for married women, and any kind of talk about one sex being above the other in some sort of hierarchical structure is living in the rules of the fall and not the rules of Heaven.
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Messy
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I always heard it meant you will desire the position of your husband: to rule him, but he will rule over you.
Timothy repeats that women have to obey.
It's all fine with me, I'm single anyway. The only ones I know who have good marriages are atheists with equal marriages.
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JNot every marriage between Christians, even the conservative sort, are that bad.
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