On Salvation

FreeinChrist · Oct 18, 2003

Florida College said:
Yes, that was me. I will heed your advice. I also noted the Christianity 101 comment and the section following it (starting with, What I have seen in your posts ) on post #31.

My comment on Christianity 101 was not meant to snippy, but one of ...shock...as cetain precepts are basic to Christianity. And I have to stand with what i wrote about what I see in your reasoning. I believe you ignore text and ignore context.

Now, to address the last 12 verses of Mark 16:

His Post-Resurrection Appearances, 9-20. This portion is not found in the Sinaitic and Vatican manuscripts. Others have it in part. Probably Marks original copy was transcribed and became a textual tradition before he finished it. Later he finished it, giving rise to another text (the fuller one, consisting of verses 9-20). This latter text is referred to by Irenaeus (c. A.D. 170) and is found in the Alexandrian and Cambridge manuscripts. Ungers Bible Handbook

Mark 16:9-20 does not appear in the two oldest manuscripts - the Codex Vaticanus and the codex Sinaiticus, both from early 330's AD. The Codex Alexandrinus referred to above was written in AD 450, and the Cambridge manuscript referred to above is from about 550 A.D. The other problem is that the style and wording is used is dissimilar to the rest of Mark. Both these things have made many, many scholars question whether it was written by Mark, but by some other person who thought that Mark's gospel ended too abruptly, so they added the rest.
Yes, Titian quoted mark 16 in 170 A.D. and Iranaeus in 202 A.D. (Unger has that confused a bit.)

I do not deny that salvation is the work of God. I do deny that faith is a work of God. Faith is something that an individual does (vs. 29 you believe in Him ). Peter said, We have come to believe and to know that you are the Christ, the Son of the living God (vs. 69). Faith is something that each person is responsible for. If our faith is Gods work, then God is accountable for those who do not develop faith.

I disagree with your conclusion to a pooint. I agree that an individual has too believe and has to make that choice. But it is God who draws us to Christ (John 6) or we don't go there. And it is God who sees our heart and grants it to us to come to Christ ( John 6) and if He doesn't grant it, we aren't given to Christ (John6). It is God who changes us.
Col 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

And gives us the Holy Spirit so we can follow in faith.

Now I feel as if I wrote a book, so I am done. You see it or you don't.

God bless.

FreeinChrist · Oct 18, 2003

Well, this just came, so I will address this last post.

Florida College said:
Free,

When I read the first part of your post, I initially thought we were making some progress. But now you say that Abraham didn't obey God to the letter, but you did not address Heb. 11:8. It says, "By faith Abraham obeyed God when he was called to go out to the place which he would afterward receive for an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going."

He did go, in faith, but he didn't leave his relatives as God commanded. He took Lot. I stated this already. He lied to Pharoah - but Pharoah got punished and not Abram. He tried to help God by having sex with Hagar - his own work, so to speak. It was no good. But God didn't punish him at all for that.

The Hebrew writer offers an inspired commentary on Abraham's faith and obedience. I don't read of God's approval of Abraham's deception (lie) or of Abraham's efforts to expedite the child of promise into the world. I think your question about Abraham's "work" is an effort to downplay the necessity of coupling faith with works.

Simply pointing out that Abraham was accounted righteous despite these flaws.
And I really don't need to 'downplay faith with works' - for scripture repeatedly points out that we are saved by grace through faith. Our works
show our faith.

Gen. 15:6 says, "And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness." Abraham believed God. He did as God had instructed him (Gen. 12:1-4 ; Heb. 12:8).

Already covered this. Read what I wrote above.
Jhn 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw {it} and was glad."

In Gen. 17, the LORD made the covenant of circumcision with Abraham. So, we might ask, how does a man of righteousness - - one who believes God, respond? We find the answer in the latter verses of that chapter (vs. 23-27 & in 21:4). He does as he has been instructed.

Because God knew Abraham's heart, God knew what Abraham would do, doncha think? Have you ever considered the idea that God knew from the beginning who would come to Him and who wouldn't? That He knew everything little thing? That is one reason why (and plus tons of scripture) that I believe we are not saved unless God grants it - and He doesn't grant it and seal us with the Holy Spirit if we aren't going to hang in there.

Issac, the child of promise is born in 21:1-5. Now, how does a man of faith respond when God tells him to offer his son of promise (Isaac) as a sacrifice? He responds like a man of faith should (22:1-18). An inspired commentary is also offered for this event in Heb. 11:17-19. The extent of Abraham's faith is brought to our attention is these verses. James comments on this same event in 2:21-24:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. You see then a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

Again, already covered in depth - which is why I ask if you even read what I wrote.
Abraham had faith that God would keep His promise that Issac was to be the father of a great nation, so he believed that God could raise him up again. God had Abraham do this as a picture of what God would do for us - at about the same location - which is sacrificing His only Son for us.

And again, do some research into the word 'justify'. The Greek word ends in 'oo' - as I wrote - and in James, as elsewhere in other passages, it means that Abraham was shown to be righteous. We are sanctified and those that are sanctified will be justified - that means when we stand in front of the Judge, we will be counted free of sin. It's a declaration, not the moment we are saved.

Your quote: "He [Abraham] was saved back in Genesis 15, he was shown saved in Gen. 22." If this is true, then what was Abraham's condition prior to Gen. 15? Was he not faithful and obedient to the Lord in Gen. 12:1-5?

There are numerous times in scripture (in romans, Galatians, Hebrews, james and Genesis) that it states "and Abraham believed and was reckoned as righteous". Not 'and Abraham did this and did that and beleived and was reckoned righteous.' He believed. period. At a certain moment, God made a promise to Abram and he beleived - at that moment, he was reckoned as righteous. And afterward, when Abram messed up, no punishment.

The writer of Hebrews says he was, "For by it [faith] the elders obtained a good testimony" (Heb. 11:2) and "By faith Abraham obeyed" (Heb. 11:8). Your quote implies that Abraham was lost prior to Gen. 15. How could an elder with a good testimony - - one who had faith and obeyed the LORD - - be is a lost condition?

Having been studying Hebrews in depth for the past year, some of your interpretations are making me cringe.
Show me in scripture where Abraham was considered righteous prior to Genesis 15. what I have before me is this:
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great."
Gen 15:2 Abram said, "O Lord GOD, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, "Since You have given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir."
Gen 15:4 Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir."
Gen 15:5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
Gen 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

The truth that James 2:14-26 is bringing to our attention is a deeper commentary on the same principle that Jesus introduces in Matt. 7:21, "Not everyone that says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." James uses various illustrations and scriptural examples of how "true" faith is coupled with works. Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac is simply one of the examples that James uses (2:21-24).

Right - not everyone who claims to be Christian is a true Christian. One must truly believe and God must see that it is the true intent of their heart - it is not at the whim of man. I have already made this point several times. True faith will be reflected by our works. Likewise false faith will be shown by deeds.

I am thinking of some I now who claim to be Christians because they do nice things for others - but they deny the deity of Christ - imagine that! And then there is the 'devout Christian' who is unrepentant about a long term adulterous relationship. Is he saved? no.

As one wrote - true faith produces good fruit (works).

Considering Matt. 7:21-23 and James 2:14-26, what should someone do today that want to follow the Lord? Do they only believe John 3:16, or do they also need to believe and obey Lk. 13:3,5; Matt. 10:32-33; and Mk. 16:16? I see many people that read a passage such as John 3:16, shut their bibles, and claim salvation by "faith only." Matt. 7:21-23 & James 2:14-26 are just two of many passages that says that this thinking is lacking scriptural support.

I believe you are working on a certain bias here that if one claims we are saved by faith alone (based on lots of scripture!), then we have a license to live a sinful life.
How many times must I say it? We aren't saved unless god sees the true intent of our heart. He then grants it to us to come to Christ (John 6). If we are truly born of God, God changes our hearts and gives us the Holy Spirit and the results will be a new life. Good fruit.

Note that the guys in Matthew 7 (Lord, Lord, didn't we...) are basing their salvation on what works they did? 'We did this...we did that...what do you mean you don't know us?'

Now I'm done.

western kentucky · Oct 18, 2003

FreeinChrist said:
Free: I already explained in the long posts I have already written. Repent, confess, believe and faith....all tied up together and leads to God's work of salvation. Water Baptism Baptism is a separate ACT.

How did you come to the conclusion that it is necessary to repent and confess? If you believe that one is saved by "faith only," then wouldn't that exclude works such as repentance and confession? How do you determine that baptism is a seperate act?

FreeinChrist · Oct 18, 2003

western kentucky said:
How did you come to the conclusion that it is necessary to repent and confess? If you believe that one is saved by "faith only," then wouldn't that exclude works such as repentance and confession? How do you determine that baptism is a seperate act?

Please read my other posts. I've already explained my self and backed it up with scripture. Repentance is not a 'work'. Fatih is not a 'work' as water baptism, doing good deeds.
And frankly, it has been beaten to death.

Florida College · Oct 19, 2003

FreeinChrist said:
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That statement is a joke. I am sorry to be rude, but it is just plain ridiculous. You are totally ignoring what it says.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
It is not of ourselves! Not at all by any efoort on our part! It is a gift! We don't earn it.
And I have given you alot of scripture that you are ignoring.
}
Jhn 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
God 'work' sent Jesus to the world. It's is God's plan of salvation at work when Jesus was on earth, went to the cross, bore our sins, was buried and rose again. Yikes, Florida - this IS Christianity 101!
[/color]That is ok as stated - but you also need to look at Who does the work of salvation and also look at what else it says in John 6. I already posted it. We either believe or we don't - and it is God who looks into the heart and sees whether we do or not. Salvation is not at the whim of man.
And if we truly believe. it will show in our lives by changes, in our behaviours and attitudes, by our deeds.
Proof, then, that salvation has always been by grace through faith.

Free,

I will reserve my comments on these phrases until the end of the post: "That statement is a joke. I am sorry to be rude, but it is just plain ridiculous" and "Yikes, Florida - this IS Christianity 101!"

My quote that prompted your comments was, "Eph. 2:8-9 is simply discussing works that one could boast about."

Concerning Eph. 2:4, I am not disputing God's love and mercy.

Concerning Eph. 2:5, I am not disputing that those who are dead are made alive through Christ, nor that we are saved by God's grace.

Concerning Eph. 2:6, I am not disputing the spiritual blessings in Christ.

Concerning Eph. 2:7, I am not disputing the message that would be known for many ages of God's grace to us in Christ.

Concerning Eph. 2:8, I am not disputing the that salvation comes by grace through faith. Nor am I disputing that it is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God.

Concerning Eph. 2:9, I am not disputing that salvation does not of works, "lest anyone should boast."

Here is the nature of my disagreement. We have been discussing the connection of faith and works (James 2:14-26). Many do not make this connection. They see all "works" as being separate and apart from salvation, or they occur after a person is saved. I reject this reasoning. Here is why:

Eph. 2:8
In Eph. 2:8 it is clear that salvation comes by grace. But two passages in particular help me put grace in the proper perspective: Titus 2:11, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." ; Matt. 7:13-14, "Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." From these verses, it seems reasonable to conclude that grace alone will not save us - - it has been extended to all, but all will not be saved. That agrees with Eph. 2:8 - - there is another factor involved.

Eph. 2:8 continues with the thought that salvation comes by grace through faith. According to Matt. 7:21, it is not just enough to say, "Lord, Lord," but God's will must also be done. James 2:14-26, a passage that we have discussed and probably will continue discussing (?), shows the necessity of coupling faith with works. Many readers of Eph. 2:8 conclude that salvation is by grace and faith, but fail to grasp the concept of what it means to have faith in the Lord. For instance, In John 14 Jesus starts out emphasizing the importance of believing in Him. He then emphasizes what it means for believers to love Him. "If you love Me, keep My commandments" (vs. 15) and " He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me" (vs. 21). He further comments negatively on love with these words, "He who does not love Me does not keep My words" (vs. 24). Many who profess salvation by faith, do not heed all the commandments concerning salvation of Jesus, or of those who were directed by the Holy Spirit. I am not downplaying the importance of faith, but faith should prompt us to obey all that the Lord expects initially: faith should prompt us to repent (Lk. 13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 17:30), confess Jesus (Matt. 10:32-33 ; Acts 8:35-39 ; Rom. 10:9-10), and be baptized (Mk. 16:16 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 22:16).

Eph. 2:8 ends with this expression, "And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Many conclude that this expression means that man does nothing for salvation; it it a gift, therefore God does it all. If that reasoning is true, then it should harmonize with other passages. If it doesn't, then something is amiss. We have already concluded from the first part of Eph. 2:8 that faith is a condition of salvation. Is faith is something that each person does, or is faith something that God does? I am left with the impression that faith is something that each person develops. Consider:
"Have faith in God" (Mk. 11:22).
"Your faith has saved you. Go in peace" (Lk. 7:50).
"What hinders me from being baptized?" Then Philip said, 'If you believe will all your heart, you may'" (Acts 8:36-37).
"Whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31).
Therefore, since faith is required in Eph. 2:8, we have to do something (have faith) to be saved.

Salvation is a gift. So, that means we don't do a thing for it. Correct? Let's see. Joshua 6:2 says, "And the LORD said to Joshua: See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor." Jericho was given to Joshua and the Israelites; therefore, it was a gift. So, did they have to do anything to obtain it? God gives instructions to Joshua in verses 3-5. Joshua instructs the priests and people in verses 6-7. The Israelites followed the Lord's instructions in verses 8-20. God "gave" Israel the city in verses 21-25. Now, is it a good scriptural argument to say there are no commands or instructions that may accompany a gift? According to Joshua chapter 6, it is not an argument at all - - we plainly see instructions and commandments that accompanied that which was given to them. And, according to Eph. 2:8, it is not an argument. Faith is something that we must have to be saved. It is our responsibility to believe God. It is not God's responsibility to have faith for us!
You said, "It is not of ourselves! Not at all by any efoort {sic} on our part! It is a gift! We don't earn it! I reject your reasoning as being unscriptural. After obeying the LORD, the Israelites didn't earn the city - - it was given to them! Likewise, when we obey the Lord, we do not earn salvation (Lk. 7-10). When all is said and done, we would still be "unprofitable servants. We have simply done that which was our duty.

Eph. 2:9
The verse reads,"Not of works, lest anyone should boast."
A similar verse is 1 Timothy 1:9, "Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began."

What is meant by "works." The Greek word for "works" is ergon. Young's Analytical Concordance defines it as work, deed, or business. Vine's defines it as work, employment, or task.

So, can any claim salvation by what their deeds, business, employment, tasks, or works? No. If they could, they would have that which they could boast of. Many say that this means that a Christian can do nothing to be saved - - salvation is based on grace through faith - - not by works. Only faith is required. Here is why I reject this reasoning:

- Faith is a work (Jn. 6:28-29).
- Acts 2:38 says, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." Repentance is also commanded in Acts 17:30. Baptism is also commanded in Acts 10:47-48.
- Acts 16:30 says, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" The response is, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (vs. 31). While many would stop the reading here, let's continue to see if the jailor believed. In verse 32, Paul and Silas taught the jailor. The jailor and his family were immediately baptized (vs. 33). At what point was the jailor saved? Let me offer a word of caution - - at whatever point you decide the jailor was saved, that understanding must also agree with other scriptures i.e. Acts 2:38.
- Two accounts are given of Saul's conversion: Acts 9:3-18 & Acts 22:6-16. Paul concludes the account in Acts 22:16 with these words, "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
- Salvation by "faith alone" will not harmonize with these scriptures. So, if we obey the Lord's commands, wouldn't that be working. Is obeying the Lord something that we can boast about? According to Luke 17:7-10, it is nothing to boast of at all. It is a simple matter of unprofitable servants doing their duty.

The works of Eph. 2:9 are those works that man could boast of. Those works cannot, and will not, save him. Obedience to the Lord is not a matter of "earning" salvation, nor of "working one's way into heaven." When considering the requirements given by the Lord (John 8:24 ; Lk. 13:3,5 ; Matt. 10:32-33 ; Mark 16:16), it is simply not enough to say, "Lord, Lord," and not do as He wills (Matt. 7:21).

Now, let's talk about your statement, "That statement is a joke. I am sorry to be rude, but it is just plain ridiculous. You are totally ignoring what it says."

I do not believe that I am ignoring what God says. I am studying the passage, and measuring the understanding that is derived with the understanding from other passages. What is simply happening is that I am reaching a different conclusion than you are. If that seems like a joke and ridiculous to you, then have a good laugh at my expense. I base my faith on God's word (Rom. 10:17), and your immature charges do not provide the incentive that I need to change my position. I suppose that you already know about red herrings, but perhaps you should be reminded (Matt. 12:22-24).

If my position on John 6:28-29 is truly lacking in an understanding of "Christianity 101," then what do you suggest I do? Should I conclude that in response to the question that Jesus was asked (vs. 28), his response was, "Nothing!" You have to do nothing! Your belief is God's work, and he does that for you." (?) Honestly, feel free to go ahead and give me an F for your class. I don't think I'm ready at this point to turn from that which I know is true to obtain your approval.

FC

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Oct 19, 2003

western kentucky said:
No, I did not forget these verses. Did you forget James 2:14-26? I am asking you to harmonize Rom. 4:5 with James 2:14-26. Instead, you use two other verses that pretty much fall in line with Romans 4:5.

Titus 3:5; 2 Tim. 1:9; Rom. 4:5; These passages all speak of the same point. We do not earn our salvation. God does not owe us anything. We all have sinned and we have all fallen short of his glory. We are saved by grace - meaning that we do not earn our salvation. Does this mean that we don't have to obey God's commands? How do you draw that idea from this passage.

Rom. 4:5 - non worker = justified
James 2:14-26 = works is the means for justification

How can you harmonize these passages? Rom. 4:5 says "but to the one who does not work," and James 2:17 says, "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."

It is not that difficult. Romans 4:5 is not drawing a parallel between "works" and "obedience." In Romans 4:5, works = the man God owes a debt to because he has earned his task flawlessly (grace is removed). James 2:14-26 is approaching a complete different problem. The problem faced: One who claims to be righteous without doing anything. The answer: Works is the means for justification.

A brethren, now it is your turn to harmonize Rom. 4:5 and James 2:14-26.....

First of all what happens first?

#1 work then saved Matt 7:21-23 do not what to do this

#2 saved then worked romans 4:5, titus 3:5, 2 tim 1:9

romans 4:5 is for God.....
james 2 is for man

Why?.... only God can see a man's intentions but man cannot ...he can only see if one is doing what one believes

who's Job is it to mature us....God's even unto death Hebrews 12:5-11, James 5:20

titus 3:7 that being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life

romans 4:25 who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justifcation.

difference of intial salvation vs present tense salvation

???which way do you what me to explain

FreeinChrist · Oct 19, 2003

Florida College said:
Free,

Here is the nature of my disagreement. We have been discussing the connection of faith and works (James 2:14-26). Many do not make this connection. They see all "works" as being separate and apart from salvation, or they occur after a person is saved. I reject this reasoning. Here is why:

Eph. 2:8
In Eph. 2:8 it is clear that salvation comes by grace. But two passages in particular help me put grace in the proper perspective: Titus 2:11, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." ; Matt. 7:13-14, "Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." From these verses, it seems reasonable to conclude that grace alone will not save us - - it has been extended to all, but all will not be saved. That agrees with Eph. 2:8 - - there is another factor involved.

I believe you are misunderstanding these verses greatly. Yes, salvation is available to all who will draw near, who accept the GIFT. But many will not enter the narrow road, will not accept the gift. However,this does not conflict with salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, that we are saved by grace and not by our works!
And I believe you missed the whole point of the scripture I posted - it was to show that salvation is GOD'S work (caps for emphasis - which is what I always intended by forget to write). God's work toward man.

A point of disagreement is that you identify belief, repent and faith as works. I believe that scripture does not identify believe, repent and fatih as works, and that this is strongly supported by Ephesisans 2.

I have no idea where you get the idea that Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to 'works of boasting.' It mutilates the scripture.

Salvation is not of ourselves - it is of God. It is GOD who draws, grants, gives us to Jesus, qualifies us, forgives, cleanses makes new.... the point to note then is that salvation is because of God 100%. We don't deserve it. We are not worthy.

As a result of being saved (cleansed, made new, givent the Holy Spirit), we are then given a new insight due to the Holy Spirit, a new conscience (Heb. 10). And there are works that God has called us to. And our works reflect our faith. That is the whole point of James. I already posted why.

You have posted what "many think" of Ephesians 2 and made alot of assumptions about that....I am not swayed by that type of argument, FC. I believe that I and Bretheren in Christ and others have pointed out clearly that true faith is accompanied by works that reflect Christ. It is part and parcel of having the Holy Spirit in us. But we do not earn our salvation.

You said, "It is not of ourselves! Not at all by any efoort {sic} on our part! It is a gift! We don't earn it! I reject your reasoning as being unscriptural. After obeying the LORD, the Israelites didn't earn the city - - it was given to them!

??? Go back and study Genesis and Exodus. The Israelites were given Jerusalem - but they were not obedient. It was an act of grace that God chose Abraham, Isaac, Jaccob , etc.... and it was the mercy of God that He forgave and forgave and still has a future plan for Israel.

And yes, salvation is gift - we don't earn it - it is right there in front of you in Ephesians 2:8-9. Why don't you see it?

Eph. 2:9
The verse reads,"Not of works, lest anyone should boast."
A similar verse is 1 Timothy 1:9, "Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began."

A verse that fully supports the concept of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and not by works.

What is meant by "works." The Greek word for "works" is ergon. Young's Analytical Concordance defines it as work, deed, or business. Vine's defines it as work, employment, or task.

And you include believe and faith.

So, can any claim salvation by what their deeds, business, employment, tasks, or works? No. If they could, they would have that which they could boast of. Many say that this means that a Christian can do nothing to be saved - - salvation is based on grace through faith - - not by works. Only faith is required.

And this is correct. The salvation plan is God's. It was God who provided the sacrificial Lamb which was Himself as Jesus (100%man/100%God), and He gives the Holy Spirit, and qualifies us, draws, grants, gives....

On our part, we need to respond to the message we are given (having been dran to it by God. We need to recognise our sin and ask forgiveness and believei.e. faith ...if you want to call this work then it is the only 'work' that is required on our part for salvation - the cleansing and forgiveness, etc.

But James is talking about works such feeding the hungry and clothing the poor, and refraining from gossip and treating all as equals, and acts such as these. You are adding these things as required for salvation when they are acts that result from the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Florida College · Oct 19, 2003

FreeinChrist said:
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Then you are not listening to all of scripture, and changing what doesn't fit your concept of James 2 says. I already wrote about the word for justify in James 2 in a post above.

What you mean is that I am not necessarily agreeing with your way of thinking. The word "justify" in James 2:21, 24, & 25 is the Greek word "dikaioo." It is the same word that appears in Titus 3:7, "Having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Dikaioo also appears in Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." The use of the word in these passages is obvious - - whatever grace and the blood of Jesus does for us, works does for us.

FreeinChrist said:
And yes, you are teaching salvation by works when you write, 'we must work (obey God) in order to receive salvation' - no, we have to believe, God must see that it is true belief, God must draw, grant, give.....

What I am teaching is the same thing that Jesus taught in John 3:16, Luke 13:3-5, Matt. 10:32-33, and Mk. 16:16. What I am teaching is what Peter taught in Acts 2:38 & Acts 10:47-48, and 1 Pet. 3:20-21. What I am teaching is what Paul taught in Acts 22:16, Rom. 6:3-11, and Col. 2:12. What I am teaching is what Philip taught in Acts 8:35-39. If they were teaching salvation by works (at least, in your eyes), then I would rather have the Lord's approval and a scriptural basis for my teaching, than to have your approval.

FreeinChrist said:
Hbr 5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
Hbr 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
Hbr 5:9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
Hbr 5:10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
To obey unto salvation is to believe. The main conflict I see here is that you define works as believe and faith, and also as actions like baptising and mor. But I don't believe that scripture uses 'works' in that manner, nor does James. James is chiding folks for showing favortism to the rich, gossip, fighting, jealousies, etc. He is using works as what they are doing - i.e . what fruit they are showing.

I am glad that you acknowledge that we must obey the Lord in order to receive salvation according to Heb. 5:9. But, when you obey, isn't that doing something? Yes, it is. It sounds like you are also saying that we must do something, or work, for salvation.

Your quote, To obey unto salvation is to believe is to teach salvation by faith only." If that is true, then it will harmonize well with the scriptures that I have previously listed in this post (and others that are relevant to salvation today under the law of Christ) i.e. John 3:16, Luke 13:3-5, Matt. 10:32-33, Mk. 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47-48, 1 Pet. 3:20-21, Acts 22:16, Rom. 6:3-11, Col. 2:12 and Acts 8:35-39.

I don't think that I have defined "works as believe and faith, and also as actions like baptising and mor {sic}." What I have done is simply point out that faith is a work according to John 6:28-29. To deny that faith is a work, you selected passages from John 6 to show all that God has done for man's salvation. That does not prove that faith is God's work. Consider the main points of the conversation in Jn. 6:28-30:
1.) the question is asked, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
2.) Jesus' answer is, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
3.) Note the people's response, "What sign will you perform then, that we may see it and believe you? What work will you do?"
It is decision time. Is faith a work that God does? Or, is faith that each person has to do? You say that faith is work of God. I deny that. It simply does not agree with other scriptures i.e. Acts 16:31, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."

Baptism is no more of a work than faith, repentance, or confession is. All are commanded by God. All must be obeyed. Our attitude about obeying God's commands is given in Lk. 17:7-10.

James 2:14-26 uses various illustrations and scriptural examples to show that faith by itself is dead, or void.

FreeinChrist said:
Perhaps someone else can explain to you better.

They are not 'works' as it is referring to in scripture, FC.
Yes, one must repent (involves confession) and believe.
But GOD does the work of salvation. It is He who 'baptizes with the Holy Spirit (seals us), and cleanses, renews regenerates...He does not do it at our whim, a momentary claim of belief, but if HE sees that it is sincere.

Who says that faith, repentance, and confession are not works? Even John 6:28-30 says that faith is a work. Why are repentance, confession, and yes, baptism, any different? All are commands necessary for salvation?

FreeinChrist said:
Water baptism is an outward confession of an inward change.
And in trying to make your case, you have made a broad definition of 'works' to include belief.
If our works are required for salvation, then God and Paul lied.

FC, I have given you scripture, and so have others. At length. I haven't seen that you really back your position up.

Free,

Where does it say that the baptism that puts one into Christ is an outward confession of an inward change? You previously used the baptism of John to make this point (Matt. 3:1-8), but the baptism of John is not the baptism that puts one into Christ (Acts 18:24-26;19:1-5).

I didn't make the broad definition of works to include faith. I simply respect what Jn. 6:28-30 says.

Your quote was, "If our works are required for salvation, then God and Paul lied." Whatever Paul is teaching in Eph. 2:8-9 will agree with John 3:16, Luke 13:3-5, Matt. 10:32-33, Mk. 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47-48, 1 Pet. 3:20-21, Acts 22:16, Rom. 6:3-11, Col. 2:12 and Acts 8:35-39. Rather than suggest that God and Paul are liars, may I be so bold as to suggest that you back and take a good hard look at your understanding of Eph. 2:8-9.

FC

FreeinChrist · Oct 19, 2003

Florida College said:
Free,

Here is why I reject this reasoning:

- Faith is a work (Jn. 6:28-29).

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The verses don't support your statement.
Jhn 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

We are to believe God's work - which is His plan of salvation realized in Jesus Christ. His work - not our works.
Even James separates faith from works, when he writes "faith without works" - two different things.

- Acts 2:38 says, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins."

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I am going to quote Greek scholar Zodhiates on this verse: "The main verb is metanoesate, the aorist direct imperative of metaneo, repent. This refers to that initial repentance of the sinner unto salvtion. The verb translated as "be baptized" is in the indirect passive imperative of baptizo which does not give it the same direct command implied in "repent." The preposition "for" in the phrase "for the forgiveness of your sins" in Greek is eis, unto. It means "for the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins." It is the same preposition we find in I Cor. 10:2 in the phrase "and were baptized into (eis) Moses." These people were baptized or spiritually identifying themselves with the purpose and vision of Moses. Repentence, therefore, is presented as identifying an individual with the remission of his sins, even as baptism following repentace provides an external identification visable by others."

This is consistent with the use of baptism elsewhere. When John baptized unto repentance, it wasn't the water baptism that gave repentance. The person first repented, and was baptized in water as a visable identification of an inward change.

Is Peter saying that the water saves? No.

Repentance is also commanded in Acts 17:30.

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And no one is arguing that repentance is not needed. But it is not a 'work'. And we are not brought to repentance without the conviction of the Holy Spirit. "No one comes to Me unless the Father draws him..." (John 6)

Baptism is also commanded in Acts 10:47-48.

Click to expand...

And again, no one is arguing that baptism isn't an ordinance that we should follow. It is the outward. vsisable sign of an inward change that already took place. That is why many churches require that the person professes Christ as Saviour before they will baptize.

- Acts 16:30 says, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" The response is, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (vs. 31). While many would stop the reading here, let's continue to see if the jailor believed. In verse 32, Paul and Silas taught the jailor. The jailor and his family were immediately baptized (vs. 33). At what point was the jailor saved? Let me offer a word of caution - - at whatever point you decide the jailor was saved, that understanding must also agree with other scriptures i.e. Acts 2:38.

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Yes, it must harmonize with other scripture. To be saved, one must believe in Jesus Christ. And then baptism follows as an outward profession of an inward change. It is a public identification with Jesus Christ.

- Two accounts are given of Saul's conversion: Acts 9:3-18 & Acts 22:6-16. Paul concludes the account in Acts 22:16 with these words, "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

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The same holds true with what I have already written.

- Salvation by "faith alone" will not harmonize with these scriptures.

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But they do harmonize with by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

So, if we obey the Lord's commands, wouldn't that be working. Is obeying the Lord something that we can boast about? According to Luke 17:7-10, it is nothing to boast of at all. It is a simple matter of unprofitable servants doing their duty.

Click to expand...

We need to follow all the commands given to us via the Holy Spirit and as seen in scripture. Baptism is a work - but it is not what saves us. It is an outward sign of an inward change. Communion is a work, but the act of it doesn't save us - it is a command to remember what Jesus did. It is also a covenant act - it identifies us with the New Covenant. If you ever get the chance, take "Covenant" through Precept Ministries.
Also as Christians, we are to feed the hungry and clothe the poor, and turn the other cheek, etc....but it is not these "works" that save us - it is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God whose blood was shed for us.

The works of Eph. 2:9 are those works that man could boast of. Those works cannot, and will not, save him.

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That is not supported by the text of the verse. It clearly states that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and not of ourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It is not of ourselves. What you teach directly contradicts this passage.

Obedience to the Lord is not a matter of "earning" salvation, nor of "working one's way into heaven."

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Correct - because we can't. The Law was given to show that. It is a gift. But obedience is what follows salvation via listening to the holy Spirit. Again, you are making faith 'works' - when James and Paul both make a distinction between them.

When considering the requirements given by the Lord (John 8:24 ; Lk. 13:3,5 ; Matt. 10:32-33 ; Mark 16:16), it is simply not enough to say, "Lord, Lord," and not do as He wills (Matt. 7:21).

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Again, no one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws them, grants it to us, and then gives us to Christ. Those that claim, "Lord, Lord, didn't we...." were not granted to come to Christ. God sees into the heart and knows who is repent or not. And note that phrase, "didn't we do ____ in your name?" "we do" - More proof that salvation is not by works.

If my position on John 6:28-29 is truly lacking in an understanding of "Christianity 101," then what do you suggest I do?
FC

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Go back to the word with an open mind to what the Holy Spirit is wanting to teach you. Learn to look at the text for what it really says, not wha the dogma of a church says, referring to some good Greek references to help. If you have the opportunity, try to learn Inductive Bible Study - a method of letting the text speak for itself, letting the Bible interpret scripture and then using the Greek and Hebrew references that shed light on the passage.
That is my suggestion.

FreeinChrist · Oct 19, 2003

Florida College said:
The use of the word in these passages is obvious - - whatever grace and the blood of Jesus does for us, works does for us.

WOW, , that statement is outright blasphemy to God!

I will pray for you.
I believe this thread is leading you to make foolish and blasphemous statements like the one above... and I want nothing of that.

western kentucky · Oct 19, 2003

FreeinChrist said:
Please read my other posts. I've already explained my self and backed it up with scripture. Repentance is not a 'work'. Fatih is not a 'work' as water baptism, doing good deeds.
And frankly, it has been beaten to death.

Why can't you just respond to me? You believe that one can be saved by "faith only." Correct? So if one can be saved by "faith only," then why would it be necessary for them to repent and confess? It seems logical that if you include "faith only," then that would exclude works such as repentance and confession. Please just explain it to me!

danceforjoy · Oct 19, 2003

We are not saved by faith alone nor by works. We are saved by Jesus Christ alone through faith and grace. But we are judged by our works, words and God's holy moral Law of the Ten Commandments.
Danceforjoy

Lanakila · Oct 19, 2003

Repentence and confession to God are part of the salvation process. They aren't works, but combine with faith. I think that salvation is being overly complicated here for some reason. I will give my experience now:

When I came to God, I turned to Christ believing that he paid the penalty for my sins, and repented of those same sins, while confessing them at the same time. This all took faith that God was real, was listening, and going to forgive. But, its all similtaneous. In other words its not a later work, but happens all at the same time. God the Holy Spirit is drawing someone to Himself at the time as well.

This isn't a complicated thing, and is easily explained in many gospel tracts.

*Mod Hat On Now*But, I need to remind folks that the rules state that only Protestants may debate in this forum. *Mod Hat Off*

western kentucky · Oct 19, 2003

Danceforjoy,

When I speak of "faith only," I am not discrediting God's grace.

When Free In Christ refers to faith only, if I understand correctly, he/she means that one can be saved by "faith alone" with no works involved. That is the position that I am opposing. She believes that one can be saved by "faith only," but she also has stated that one must repent and confess to be saved. To me, when one includes "faith only," that would exclude works such as repentance and confession. I am curious how she determines that one must repent and confess, but not be baptized?

western kentucky · Oct 19, 2003

Lanakila said:
Repentence and confession to God are part of the salvation process. They aren't works, but combine with faith. I think that salvation is being overly complicated here for some reason. I will give my experience now:

When I came to God, I turned to Christ believing that he paid the penalty for my sins, and repented of those same sins, while confessing them at the same time. This all took faith that God was real, was listening, and going to forgive. But, its all similtaneous. In other words its not a later work, but happens all at the same time. God the Holy Spirit is drawing someone to Himself at the time as well.

This isn't a complicated thing, and is easily explained in many gospel tracts.

*Mod Hat On Now*But, I need to remind folks that the rules state that only Protestants may debate in this forum. *Mod Hat Off*

Lanakila,

How did you determine that it is necessary for one to believe, repent, and to confess, but not be baptized? How are they combined with faith? Faith will lead us to obey God's commands, but isn't faith, repentance, and confession all different acts.

western kentucky · Oct 19, 2003

sorry... didn't mean to post

FreeinChrist · Oct 19, 2003

western kentucky said:
Danceforjoy,

When I speak of "faith only," I am not discrediting God's grace.

When Free In Christ refers to faith only, if I understand correctly, he/she means that one can be saved by "faith alone" with no works involved. That is the position that I am opposing. She believes that one can be saved by "faith only," but she also has stated that one must repent and confess to be saved. To me, when one includes "faith only," that would exclude works such as repentance and confession. I am curious how she determines that one must repent and confess, but not be baptized?

Not precisely correct. I believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. The faith includes confession/repentance and asking Christ into your heart, as described in a post above. The works that result are a reflection of the inner change, of our faith. Baptism is a work that is a public profession of an inward change, identifying oneself with Jesus Christ. It does not save.
Repentance/ confession are not works.

and this article posted in another thread explains it well:
http://www.tektonics.org/baptismneed.html

western kentucky · Oct 19, 2003

Free In Christ,

I apologize if I misquoted you.

When I speak of "faith only," I have never meant "faith" without grace. I mean "faith" with no works. How did you come to the conclusion that one must repent and confess, and not be baptized? Where in the scriptures is baptism only referred as a public profession of an inward change?

eldermike · Oct 19, 2003

Saved is: regenerated, a new creature, born again.

It's an act of God, not a process.

You were born first under a death sentence, you are born again in Christ. Christ paid the price for you in full.

The price for you without Christ is more than you can pay. Jesus told us about the slave that had a debt to high to pay, but the slave said" Be paitent with me and I will pay it" The master said to Him: "I forgive the debt"

Now 2000 years later we are still trying to pay for the debt of sin as if the price has gone down. It has not gone down one cent. You cant pay it.

Good news: It's paid! Jesus paid it.

Now go be free in Christ as a new creature and find His purpose for your life.

FreeinChrist · Oct 19, 2003

western kentucky said:
Free In Christ,

I apologize if I misquoted you.

When I speak of "faith only," I have never meant "faith" without grace. I mean "faith" with no works. How did you come to the conclusion that one must repent and confess, and not be baptized? Where in the scriptures is baptism only referred as a public profession of an inward change?

I already discussed in depth in my previous posts that being baptized is to identify oneself with something. When John baptized unto repentance - the water didn't make them repentant. the repentance came first and then the public profession. I quoted a Greek theologian in support of this in one of my posts also, in regards to Acts 2:38. How were the Israelites "baptized unto Moses"? It is explained in that quote.

I am not trying to be rude in not responding to you. But at this point, I really don't want to continue in this thread because it has led to what I consider awful statements by one equating God's grace and Christ's sacrifice with our works.
God Bless

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