On Salvation

[Lotar]

Here's another thing I've been wroking on. I don't think I'll get any bad rep for this one, but who knows


On Salvation



Works play no part in salvation. Works come about as a result of salvation. If one does not have works, it is because they do not have salvation, not the other way around. To say that works are required for salvation, says that we are saved at least partly because of our own merit, which we know not to be true.



Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:



Works are a result of salvation, but that does not mean that works cannot come for some other reason as well. All dogs are mammals, not all mammals are dogs. All who are saved have works, not all who have works are saved. If works are absent, it is because salvation is absent. Not salvation is absent because works are absent.



Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.


James 2:26
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

How do I know I am saved, and when am I saved?

Giving your life to Christ. Repenting and accepting His forgiveness for our sins, seeking and following His will through prayer and scripture, by having faith and the works to demonstrate it. It is stated this way because of the common trend in the Church today is, "I'm a Christian because my Mom/Dad were", have "because I was baptized". It's teaching that the faith must be yours, not your parents; it's not genetic.

No, not everyone will be saved who thinks that they are. Saying some prayer your pastor made up, getting baptized, being a basically good person, saying you believe in Jesus, or being "born a Christian" are common reasons people give for why they are saved. Unfortunately none of these things are going to get you to heaven.



How do I know others are saved?

You will know them by their fruit. Though we can never truly know their hearts.



Is it available only to Evangelical Fundamentalists, or can Mainline Protestants, Anglicans, Catholics and Orthodox partake of this relationship?

All Christians have it.

What was that like? And were you saved the moment before that? In other words, how did you know?

Actually, I don't know when the exact moment was for me. Thoughts who can pinpoint when usually were not raised in the church, or left the church and came back. I can say that in tenth grade was when I first made a real effort to apply my faith.

How do I know I am saved? Because I believe that Christ died and rose again for my sins. I have repented and turned from my sins, and make an effort to seek His will.



Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.



Religious feelings are no basis for faith, or a reason to believe that one is saved. If you merely follow your feelings, who knows where you'll end up? There are Muslims, Mormons, and Buddhists that get that feeling. Pray, and follow the word of God, don't rely on feelings.


The reason that Evangelical Christians focus on the personal side of the faith is that many people don't realize that it is an essential part of salvation. The downside is that some people seem to think we teach, pray this prayer and you go to heaven. Or you don't really need a church; you can be fine on your own. But it's just like how some people at other churches think you just need to show up on Sundays, or sometimes only on holidays. Salvation is through Grace alone, but faith without works is dead.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

How do I know I am saved, and when am I saved?

.

I have been a believer for 30+ years... spoke in tongues and prophesied for 30+ of those years... layed hands on the sick and had them healed.... cast out demons... seen miracles... layed hands on people and had them "fall out"... lots of other things to numerous to mention.
In the end there is only one thing that I am relying on to know that I am saved:

Because He said so!

Romans 10
13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


His name is Jesus!

Acts 2
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

 

[Florida College]

Here's another thing I've been wroking on. I don't think I'll get any bad rep for this one, but who knows

On Salvation

Works play no part in salvation. Works come about as a result of salvation. If one does not have works, it is because they do not have salvation, not the other way around. To say that works are required for salvation, says that we are saved at least partly because of our own merit, which we know not to be true.

Would you comment on John 6:28-29?

James 2:26
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

So, are works necessary or not? This verse (James 2:26) seems to suggest that they are. Did Abraham have to obey God (James 2:21-22 & Gen. 22:1-18)?

 

[Florida College]

Salvation is through Grace alone, but faith without works is dead.[/font][/color]

Perhaps you would comment on these two texts: Titus 2:11 & Matt. 7:13-14.

I understand them to say that God's grace has been extended to all men, but all men will not be saved. Seems to me that salvation must involve other factors than just grace. Maybe I've missed something?

 

[Lotar]

Would you comment on John 6:28-29?

So, are works necessary or not? This verse (James 2:26) seems to suggest that they are. Did Abraham have to obey God (James 2:21-22 & Gen. 22:1-18)?

If we have faith we have works, it is through our works that we show we have true faith "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;"

Take the theif on the cross for example, he had no works, yet through his faith he was saved. If works were required for salvation, it would have been to late for him. If he had lived he would have demonstrated his faith through works, but his salvation would still have been a result of his faith.

Perhaps you would comment on these two texts: Titus 2:11 & Matt. 7:13-14.

I understand them to say that God's grace has been extended to all men, but all men will not be saved. Seems to me that salvation must involve other factors than just grace. Maybe I've missed something?

We must first recieve His grace through faith.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Lotar, buddy, why are you beating this to death? We all know faith and works are interconnected. There can't be one without the other right? (of course, there are some exceptions, like when you are on your death bed and can't possibly do any good works from your faith).

So lets just leave it at that.

 

[Greeter]

Lotar, buddy, why are you beating this to death?

What is the problem Rising_Suns? Lotar picked a subject that is very important to the denominations represented here in PRE. Our beliefs differ from other denominations, especially on this issue, and we would like to have all our ducks in a role in preparation for debates with those other denominations. Is that okay with you? (As if we need your approval now for what we wish to discuss in our forum )

 

[Lotar]

Lotar, buddy, why are you beating this to death? We all know faith and works are interconnected. There can't be one without the other right? (of course, there are some exceptions, like when you are on your death bed and can't possibly do any good works from your faith).

So lets just leave it at that.

Because it's a fundamental Protestant belief, and what Greeter said

 

[Rising_Suns]

Works as a result of faith is also a Catholic belief as well, just so you know.

*dave leaves before he gets beat up*

 

[Florida College]

If we have faith we have works, it is through our works that we show we have true faith "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;"

Take the theif on the cross for example, he had no works, yet through his faith he was saved. If works were required for salvation, it would have been to late for him. If he had lived he would have demonstrated his faith through works, but his salvation would still have been a result of his faith.


We must first recieve His grace through faith.

Lotar,

So, did the Abraham have to obey God i.e. James 2:21-22 & Gen. 22:1-18?

Must we not also obey Christ in all that he commanded regarding salvation i.e. faith (John 3:16), repentance (Lk. 13:3,5), confession (Matt. 10:32-33), and baptism (Mk. 16:16)?

Concerning the thief on the cross, what law did the thief live under . . . the law of Moses or the law of Christ? Would you comment on Heb. 9:15-17 - - specifically as to which law was in effect when the thief on the cross died?

Also, your comments about Titus 2:11 & Matt. 7:13-14 were that grace must be received through faith. I agree. We are saved by grace, but not by grace alone - - that is what I conclude from the passages listed in Titus and Matt.
But are we saved by faith alone? Is faith the only command that Jesus requires? If so, what about the demons (James 2:19)? They believed.

FC

 

[Bayhawks83]

Works as a result of faith is also a Catholic belief as well, just so you know.

*dave leaves before he gets beat up*

i guess martin luther had no reason to disagree with the catholic church?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

i guess martin luther had no reason to disagree with the catholic church?

Now that you mention it, not really.

 

[danceforjoy]

I am new to you and like to mention the faith of Paul who died daily to sin and self and lived by the faith of Jesus (Gal.2:20). Then Jesus said to the ex-sex worker: "Your sins are forgiven, your faith has saved you" (Lk.7:48-50). She did not keep the Law of Moses. She was saved on the basis of Jesus forgiving her and believing Him.
I am astounded how very few Christian actually know the reason for the Protestant Reformation and the difference. It is especially apparent in interpreting Romans ch.7. When you apply Gal.2:20 to Rom.7 you cannot but see the diff. God bless - danceforjoy

 

[FreeinChrist]

Lotar,

So, did the Abraham have to obey God i.e. James 2:21-22 & Gen. 22:1-18?

Free: Abraham believed and was accounted righteous. See Genesis 15, verse 6 in particular. God made a covenant with Abram and what did God require of Abram at that time as a condition of that covenant? Nothing that is stated. It just says that Abram believed. Paul refers to this several times between Romans and Galatians, and so does the author of Hebrews.

Must we not also obey Christ in all that he commanded regarding salvation i.e. faith (John 3:16), repentance (Lk. 13:3,5), confession (Matt. 10:32-33), and baptism (Mk. 16:16)?

Free: Repentence and fatih are not 'works'. Water Baptism does not save, it is beling washed by the Spirit that regenerates and renews. Water Baptism is only the outward indication of an inward change.

Concerning the thief on the cross, what law did the thief live under . . . the law of Moses or the law of Christ? Would you comment on Heb. 9:15-17 - - specifically as to which law was in effect when the thief on the cross died?

Free: Considering that Christ was already being sacrificed on the cross for sin at that time, and all that we know of the thief is that he was not a law abiding fellow, but one who beleived Jesus on the cross - I'd say he was forgiven under the New Covenant. But salvation has always been by grace through faith. It is a huge point of Hebrews 11.

Also, your comments about Titus 2:11 & Matt. 7:13-14 were that grace must be received through faith. I agree. We are saved by grace, but not by grace alone - - that is what I conclude from the passages listed in Titus and Matt.
But are we saved by faith alone? Is faith the only command that Jesus requires? If so, what about the demons (James 2:19)? They believed.

FC

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not by works. See Ephesians 2:8-9.
The demons mentioned in James may have believed Christ would come as promised, but have faith in God?? They didn't, otherwise they wouldn't have become demons. And there is no plan of salvation for the fallen angels. They have no hope. They were in the presence of God himself, and followed Satan instead.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

QUOTE=Florida College Would you comment on John 6:28-29?

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.

John 6:29 Jesus answer and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he sent.

John 1:13 which were born , not of blood , nor the will of flesh, nor the will of man, but of God


So, are works necessary or not? This verse (James 2:26) seems to suggest that they are. Did Abraham have to obey God (James 2:21-22 & Gen. 22:1-18)?
what came first belief then works not works then belief
Gen 15:6 Abram believed that he would many seed...Hebrews 11:8-9


Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith[given by God Gal 5:22] is counted for righteousness.

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy, He saved us .........

2 tim 1:9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works but according to His purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began


james is talking about us telling unbelievers for us to help lead them to Christ that without living what one preaches it will be in vain

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

QUOTE=Florida College Perhaps you would comment on these two texts: Titus 2:11 & Matt. 7:13-14.

I understand them to say that God's grace has been extended to all men, but all men will not be saved. Seems to me that salvation must involve other factors than just grace. Maybe I've missed something?

Titus 2:11 For the saving grace of God that bringeth salvation hath available to all men

Matt 7:13-14 few can find it

matt 20:16 many called few chosen

romans 3:11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh God.

only in your world florida matt 7:21-23

 

[Florida College]

Free: Abraham believed and was accounted righteous. See Genesis 15, verse 6 in particular. God made a covenant with Abram and what did God require of Abram at that time as a condition of that covenant? Nothing that is stated. It just says that Abram believed. Paul refers to this several times between Romans and Galatians, and so does the author of Hebrews.

So, did Abraham have to obey God or not in Gen. 22:1-18 (see also James 2:21-22).

Free: Repentence and fatih are not 'works'. Water Baptism does not save, it is beling washed by the Spirit that regenerates and renews. Water Baptism is only the outward indication of an inward change.

Who says that faith is not a work? Did Jesus say that (John 6:28-29)? Who said that water baptism does not save? Did Peter say that (1 Pet. 3:20-21)?
Who said that water baptism is only the outward indication of an inward change? What did Jesus say baptism was for in Mark 16:16?

Free: Considering that Christ was already being sacrificed on the cross for sin at that time, and all that we know of the thief is that he was not a law abiding fellow, but one who beleived Jesus on the cross - I'd say he was forgiven under the New Covenant. But salvation has always been by grace through faith. It is a huge point of Hebrews 11.

You say that the thief was forgiven under the New Covenant, but what does Heb. 9:15-17 say? Was Jesus' testament (or will) in effect then?

I'm not sure that salvation by grace through faith is the real point of Heb. 11. Heb. 11 is focusing on the faithful men and women of the O.T. Heb. 11:6 plainly tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God. I'm not denying the significance or importance of grace, just that grace is not really being discussed in Heb. 11.

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not by works. See Ephesians 2:8-9.
The demons mentioned in James may have believed Christ would come as promised, but have faith in God?? They didn't, otherwise they wouldn't have become demons. And there is no plan of salvation for the fallen angels. They have no hope. They were in the presence of God himself, and followed Satan instead.

Free,

We are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9). But what does faith prompt one to do when faced with a command given by the Lord? Consider John 8:24 ; Luke 13:3,5 ; Matt. 10:32-33 ; Mark 16:16 ; & Heb. 5:9? I am not sure that I understand the kind of faith that prompts one to not obey the Lord.

The rulers of John 12:42-43 believed in Jesus. Still, they lacked something. If I believed that salvation came by faith alone, that would cause me concern.

Concerning the demons in James 2:19, consider the context (note vs.17).

FC

 

[Florida College]

QUOTE=Florida College Perhaps you would comment on these two texts: Titus 2:11 & Matt. 7:13-14.

I understand them to say that God's grace has been extended to all men, but all men will not be saved. Seems to me that salvation must involve other factors than just grace. Maybe I've missed something?

Titus 2:11 For the saving grace of God that bringeth salvation hath available to all men

Matt 7:13-14 few can find it

matt 20:16 many called few chosen

romans 3:11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh God.

only in your world florida matt 7:21-23

Brethren,

It has not been but a few days since I pointed out your unnecessary hostility.
Should I suspect any different from you now?

Why do you think I referred you to Acts 13:51?

Why do you think that I told you that my time was better spent elsewhere?

I love bible study, but after enough insults, it's time to move on.

Just think for a moment, who apologized to you for the ugly behavior of others because he felt concern for you and didn't want you to be discouraged about studying the bible? Do you remember who did that?

If I could help you, I would. But you will have to convince me that I can.

FC

 

[FreeinChrist]

So, did Abraham have to obey God or not in Gen. 22:1-18 (see also James 2:21-22).

I already pointed out that that Abram was accounted righteous simply for believing. And God KNOWS his people, He knew what Abraham would do. And consider this: Abraham was told by God to leave his father's house back in Genesis 12 - and Abraham didn't, not for years - not til his father died. God's punishment? none.

John 6 explains that no one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws, grants it to him, and then gives them to Jesus. Salvation is not at the whim of man, but occurs when God looks into the true intent of a person and grants it to that person to come to Christ. It is very important in regards to salvation to look at exactly what God does.

Who says that faith is not a work? Did Jesus say that (John 6:28-29)? Who said that water baptism does not save? Did Peter say that (1 Pet. 3:20-21)?
Who said that water baptism is only the outward indication of an inward change? What did Jesus say baptism was for in Mark 16:16?

Ephesians 2:8 - 9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast."
If faith is works, then this verse needs to be rewritten to: 'for by grace are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God: not of works except the work of faith, lest any man boast - except in his faith.'
This verse shows that faith is not part of works.

That faith is not works is not the least contrary to John 6:28-29.
Jhn 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Now, Whose works are they? And consider these verses:
Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Jhn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Jhn 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
See the Father's role - He draws us, He teaches, He grants to us to come to Jjesus, and He gives us to Jesus. He knows who beleives and who doesn't really believe.

You say that the thief was forgiven under the New Covenant, but what does Heb. 9:15-17 say? Was Jesus' testament (or will) in effect then?

Hbr 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were {committed} under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hbr 9:16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
Hbr 9:17 For a covenant is valid {only} when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

The fact remains that the thief was on his cross for a crime, which isn't following any law, and he was forgiven for believing in Jesus Christ. Since his belief was in the mediator of the New Covenant, I beleive that a case could be made that he in the new Covennant - but it's a moot point.
He was saved because he believed. Not on the basis of works.

I'm not sure that salvation by grace through faith is the real point of Heb. 11. Heb. 11 is focusing on the faithful men and women of the O.T. Heb. 11:6 plainly tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God. I'm not denying the significance or importance of grace, just that grace is not really being discussed in Heb. 11.

But God's grace is seen throughout the whole bible - how many times did he forgive Israel? Isn't the fact that through the person of Jesus Christ, God himself made atonement for sin evidence of His grace? That the Tablets were put inside the Ark and the mercy seat put on top is also evidence of God's grace, for as James also says, "mercy triumphs over judgement."

By grace, the OT saints were saved through faith in a God's promise of the Seed of Abraham. Since Christ, we are saved by grace through faith in the realized promise of the Seed - Jesus Christ.

Free,

We are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9). But what does faith prompt one to do when faced with a command given by the Lord? Consider John 8:24 ; Luke 13:3,5 ; Matt. 10:32-33 ; Mark 16:16 ; & Heb. 5:9? I am not sure that I understand the kind of faith that prompts one to not obey the Lord.

Free: And who says that the faith that saves prompts one to not obey Jesus? I believe you may be working from a bias.
I believe that what we learn from James is that true faith is evidenced in our behaviour and our deeds. I believe that from Hebrews we learn that continuance in the faith is the evidence of our salvation.

And I believe you need to read scripture and interpret it IN CONTEXT.
Jhn 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins."
That verse is talking about believing in Jesus as Messiah for eternal life, not about 'works'.

The rulers of John 12:42-43 believed in Jesus. Still, they lacked something. If I believed that salvation came by faith alone, that would cause me concern.

Jhn 12:42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing {Him,} for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;
Jhn 12:43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

Your answer is right there, really - they 'beleived', but not really, for they loved the approval of man over God. Again, there is no salvation for them unless God approves. I refer you again to John 6.

Concerning the demons in James 2:19, consider the context (note vs.17).

FC

James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
The book of James needs to be understood in light of all of scripture - and frequently I see it taken on it's own, outside of the rest of scripture and abused somewhat. As I stated, what we learn from James is that true faith is evidenced by our behaviour and deeds. This is a concept supported by the rest of scripture.

Let's put it this way: a person hears the gospel, says a prayer of repentence, asks Jesus into his heart one night...and then goes on to live a totally Godless life and never thinks of Christ again. Is he saved? no.
God looks into the heart, sees the true intent, and has to grant salvation to the person. Afterall, it is God who forgives, and cleanses and seals with the Holy Spirit. Do you think an omnipotent, omniscient God can look at this person and know it isn't sincere? I do.

and again, the demons know who Jesus is and temble - but there is no hope for them. there is no salvation plan for them. They believed while in God's presence, but didn't have the faith to stick with God over Satan. To make an analogy, it's like a person who says he believes in Jesus and makes lipservice about it, but never has evidence of it in his life. He doesn't truly believe, and he isn't saved - for God knows the true intent of the heart. Salvation is not at the whim of man, but granted to us from God upon true repentence and belief.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Brethren,

It has not been but a few days since I pointed out your unnecessary hostility.
Should I suspect any different from you now?

Why do you think I referred you to Acts 13:51?

Why do you think that I told you that my time was better spent elsewhere?

I love bible study, but after enough insults, it's time to move on.

Just think for a moment, who apologized to you for the ugly behavior of others because he felt concern for you and didn't want you to be discouraged about studying the bible? Do you remember who did that?

If I could help you, I would. But you will have to convince me that I can.

FC

what hostility just the facts .....

can not work to heaven florida that is what matt 7:21-23 where doing
working with out god leading so that they could say look at my works lord not look at your works lord...

keep on goin to james 2 momons go to that verse all the time