On reality

[jax5434]

Do we live in a world with multiple realities? Is there a physical reality, and a "spiritual" reality where for example fallen angels exist? Or are the fallen angels just invisible but in the same reality?

I want a greater perspective on this subject.

Two very good books by Michael Heiser "The Unseen Realm: and "Reversing Hermon" deal with this subject. I highly recommend them.
God Bless
Jax

 

[OldWiseGuy]

From a practical standpoint we make our own reality, from a smorgasbord of choices. That 'reality' cannot be objectively defined or described attests to this fact.

 

[Gene2memE]

From a practical standpoint we make our own reality, from a smorgasbord of choices. That 'reality' cannot be objectively defined or described attests to this fact.

Oh good, I was wondering how long it would take before 'the map is the place' appeared.

If you die, your subjective experience of reality goes away. Reality doesn't though. It continues. So from a practical standpoint, reality doesn't matter what we make of it - reality is what's real.

 

[erealmz]

This is a great post. One thing about reality is that it is indeed subjective to our perception. You know the old saying "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?". Since creatures that could perceive sound are around when the tree falls then it does make a sound. But say there were no creatures at all. Not even microscopic ones. It was just that tree by itself. If it fell then, it would still make a sound. The same could be said of a rock falling into the water. If no creatures were around to feel it, would it still make waves? Yup.

But if you look even deeper into this tree question, you might find some understanding of how we perceive reality. Instead of asking if it made a sound, instead let's ask if ever even fell. Say there are no creatures around to witness the tree falling. You walk by it one day to see that it is standing up straight. The very next day you walk be again and see that it is laying on it's side. You might say "I wonder what made it fall". But how do you know it fell? You didn't see it. Nor did any creature because there were none around. You might see evidence that it fell. Maybe a splintered truck. Soft dirt at it's base. There may have been a heavy storm the night before. But none of this proves that the tree ever fell. You only saw that state of the tree in it's up position and then in it's "fallen" position. And since you did not witness the event yourself, nor did any creature in the area, you really can't say that it fell and must therefore either conclude that it had not fallen or that you don't know.
Since we as humans rely on evidence to dictate our perception of reality, our mind takes what we know and creates it's own reality based on that. So we see evidence that a tree fell in the forest and our mind creates the reality that it actually did fall. That is how our perception fools us. For all we know, some lumberjacks came and cut the tree, lowered it to the ground with a crane and made it look like it has fallen. Though this is highly unlikely, it is still a possibility as are any number of things that could have caused it to end up in it's side.

So how does this relate to reality? For one, it provides an example of the dimensions that exist and make up our perceived reality. We seen the two states of a tree in 3 dimensions but we did not perceive the 4th dimension of time during the instance in which the tree shifted states. The reason we did not perceive that 4th dimension was because we did not occupy the other 3 dimensions when the shift took place. Yet something occurred in which the 3 dimensions containing the form of the tree changed states and we are lead to believe that the 4th dimension played a part in it. This becomes our reality and we accept it based on past experiences/knowledge and the probability that such experiences could occur again.

Does this make any sense? If not, forget it. I'll get to the point.

There are a total of 11 proposed dimensions that make up what we believe to be reality. Most of these dimensions exist around the plank length which is about 10 to the negative 35 meters. (Sorry I can't type the quotation in it's correct form on this board)
According to string theory, everything vibrates at these levels and locality ceases to exist. But they are still considered spacial dimensions. In the 3 spacial dimensions that we can actually observe, we get the appearance of the world around us. The 4th dimension of time allows us to interact with this world. Time is the most prominent way in which we are aware of our reality. But according to Einstein, time itself is relative and what we observe of it if based on our motion and location. Since time can be perceived differently by each individual, this too is just an illusion. Though some would argue otherwise.

Now if time makes up a great part of our perceived reality, any dimension beyond time would be very difficult to perceive. I assume this is why some one stated earlier that one can not see the spirit world. In a sense, they are right. For if the spirit world exists, it would be beyond spacetime.
But hypothetically speaking, there is a proposed 4th dimension (or with the addition of time, a 5th dimension). It's is mathematically understood and cannot be perceived any other way though attempts have been made. Known as hyperspace, this Fifth Dimension could very well be the place that Angels and Demons exist according to Chuck Missler. But whether you take a secular or biblical stance on the matter it is still a theory. None-the-less it proposes in addition to the 11 Dimensions already described that there are indeed other realities outside our own.

If any of this is flawed please somebody correct me. I will gladly accept it to gain new insight.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Oh good, I was wondering how long it would take before 'the map is the place' appeared.

If you die, your subjective experience of reality goes away. Reality doesn't though. It continues. So from a practical standpoint, reality doesn't matter what we make of it - reality is what's real.

Everything is 'real', if even for a moment. Even concepts such as 'uncertainty' are real. "I may or may not have more than two cups of coffee today" is as real as the cup I drink it out of. That I may or may not gaze at my navel contemplating 'reality' is also reality, however impractical.

 

[Rigatoni]

Yes, I would like to state that all that I have said here, is just pondering, purely theoretical, and purely hypothetical wondering, and should not be taken as fact, but, it is kinda fun sometimes to me, and those like me, I expect/suspect, to "do" sometimes, and it seems to broaden our horizon's and seems to kinda raise our level(s) of consciousness or awareness, even though none of it can be proven as, nor is meant to be taken as, "fact"... Kinda like science fiction or fantasy novels/stories/movies can...

Just keep in mind that it's all pure theory when you get on this kind of ground...

But, as far as the Bible teaches, their is at least two for sure, a physical reality and a spiritual reality that are tied together somehow, and are near to each other, but that's about all the Bible let's you know about it/them (other realities)... It does seem to suggest that those two realities can and do affect one another though... But, again, the Bible doesn't delve to deep into the intricacies of how that all works in great detail, cause were just supposed to believe (in) it by faith, I think...

God Bless!

Sorry, I think what I was trying to say before didn't come out right lol - just wanted to clarify. I'm sure there's nothing wrong with seeking out the mysteries and glories of God, even the nature of reality via philosophy. In fact, I believe God wants us to do so. But, I meant that we should be careful about reaching conclusions of reality based on personal experience. Just like if a pilot is relying on his instruments for navigation, sometimes those instruments can give faulty readings. An example would be like telekinesis - a person may try this and think his mind has some sort of power he didn't know about before, when in reality it's source may be demonic. Hope that makes sense. =)

 

[Rigatoni]

Going back to the topic however, I think it's important to first establish what exactly "reality" is. If you ask someone to define it, how would they exactly? In metaphysics, reality is defined as "that which is independent of the mind." But, what does that mean exactly? How is it independent? What is "is-ness"?

Everything we understand breaks down to a frame of reference. For instance, how do you define color to someone who's been blind since birth, and has never seen color before? You can't, we understand color because we have an image of reference associated with it. This is the same for everything else we understand. So what is our reference for reality? Usually it's physical creation. But, is that truly reality? Physical creation is constantly changing and shifting over time at different rates, and may even been slowly breaking down from coherence into incoherent noise. There are also other issues to take into account such as determinism and causality.

Come to think of it, maybe there are multiple "realities". Perhaps reality is some kind of standard by which things exists relative to; it has it's own rules and parameters. But, at the same time, perhaps there is also some kind of ultimate, absolute reality by which to judge all other "realities", and this one is formless and unchanging - i.e. God himself? Just speculation =)

 

[Left]

how do you define color to someone who's been blind since birth, and has never seen color before? You can't, we understand color because we have an image of reference associated with it.

According to Plato's Theory of Forms, if I understand correctly, people may have a perfect image already of everything in their minds. So maybe the blind really do understand color?

Mind = blown

 

[Dave-W]

Going back to the topic however, I think it's important to first establish what exactly "reality" is.

Reality... What a concept!

 

[Dave-W]

So maybe the blind really do understand color?

Just ask Stevie Wonder if he understands "color."

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Perhaps reality is the product of a million choices. How we assemble those choices is our reality.

 

[bhsmte]

Do we live in a world with multiple realities? Is there a physical reality, and a "spiritual" reality where for example fallen angels exist? Or are the fallen angels just invisible but in the same reality?

I want a greater perspective on this subject.

I guess that would be determined by; how you personally conclude what should be considered a "reality" and what isn't.

 

[quatona]

Here is my outlandish view:

Multiple realities exist. What may be true for one person, isn't necessarily true for another - even spiritually.

For example, person A might be used to paranormal activity. In their reality, paranormal is a very real thing. And you must be careful of it.

Then you got Person B's reality where they have never experienced anything odd in their life.

Then at the afterlife, people are judged according to how they reacted to their reality.

In my reality there won´t be something like a judgement day in the afterlife.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do we live in a world with multiple realities? Is there a physical reality, and a "spiritual" reality where for example fallen angels exist? Or are the fallen angels just invisible but in the same reality?

I want a greater perspective on this subject.

I guess it depends on how we are using "reality"? Do we merely mean "that which is real", or are we referring to a "realm" or "world"? I think the idea that there is a "spirit world" is a false one, or at the very least it's not biblical nor is it part of the historic language of the Church (I would be willing to be corrected on this point if I'm mistaken, but best as I can tell it's a quite modern way of thinking). The idea that there is an invisible world, a sort of side dimension in which spiritual beings exist comes across to me to be something that has far more in common with works of fantasy fiction than Christian theology. The angels, and their fallen former compatriots, are invisible because they are non-corporeal spirits, as the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews writes, that angels are "ministering spirits".

It's not like, say, in shows like Stranger Things where there's a sort of "upside-down" world, or like in D&D where there are parallel planes of reality that one could in theory side-step into. That's what I mean by the idea of a "spirit world" has more in common with fantasy fiction than Christian theology.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Resha Caner]

I think the idea that there is a "spirit world" is a false one, or at the very least it's not biblical nor is it part of the historic language of the Church

Yes, though I would add that there isn't really an "official" explanation of what a spirit is. Unfortunately legions of creative minds have poured their thoughts into that void and created a lot of confusion. While maybe someone has guessed rightly (or gotten close) to what a spirit is, it remains just that - a guess.

What we have are Biblical accounts involving spirits.

Reality (what is real) comes down to issues of what we can perceive.

 

[Dave-W]

Yes, though I would add that there isn't really an "official" explanation of what a spirit is.

In the overall sense, does a definition really change much? Is it needed?

 

[Resha Caner]

In the overall sense, does a definition really change much? Is it needed?

I don't understand what you're asking.

 

[Dave-W]

I don't understand what you're asking.

Why do we need a definition of a "spirit?"

 

[Resha Caner]

Why do we need a definition of a "spirit?"

For those who can adopt a minimalist mindset, we don't need to define it. However, curiosity prompts many to wonder what spirit might be. Further, skeptics use the lack of a definition as a reason to reject the existence of spirits.

In the words of C.S. Lewis, “Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy needs to be answered.”

I am one of those who was curious to know what a spirit is. I've basically satisfied that curiosity for this earthly lifetime, but don't claim to have the "right" answer, and expect God will enlighten me on the subject in the next life. With that said, and given I belong to the curious group, it is a bit of an irritant to me that those who are happily minimalist so flippantly dismiss us, the curious.

 

[Dave-W]

I belong to the curious group, it is a bit of an irritant to me that those who are happily minimalist so flippantly dismiss us, the curious.

No - it is neither minimalism or flippancy.

Rather, it is the adopting of a biblical mindset where "... we see in a mirror dimly," 1 Cor 13.12; and understand that God has INTENTIONALLY left off those details.