on harmonizing James with faith alone..

Thunderchild · Jan 23, 2002

I have explained in detail that when a thing is taken out of context, the intended meaning is altered as a result.

Where a thing is taken from the surrounding context without changing the intended meaning of what is quoted, it has not been taken out of context, it has been abridged.

It should be clear that what I have cited is not taken out of context, but abridged.

LouisBooth · Jan 24, 2002

"It should be clear that what I have cited is not taken out of context, but abridged. "

no, it is taken out of context, you think that passage is indepentant of the rest of the letter, that is the problem. After showing that works are a result of faith James THEN makes those statements knowing the reader wouldn't forget what he just wrote.

Thunderchild · Jan 25, 2002

<font color=green>no, it is taken out of context, you think that passage is indepentant of the rest of the letter, that is the problem. After showing that works are a result of faith James THEN makes those statements knowing the reader wouldn't forget what he just wrote. </font>

? Where does James show that works are a result of faith? Chapter 2 verse 13 concludes a passage on mercy and love, so this "works are a result of faith" statement must follow Chapter 2 verse 13. Is it then verse 14 that says works result from faith? <font color=red> What is the gain, my brothers, if anyone claims to have faith, but does not have works? Can that faith save him? no.</font>. Well, no, this says that faith without works cannot save. Hmmm... can it be that some Bible I have not encountered has a verse 13¾? Maybe the one who wrote the comment quoted in green made a minor error in stating the location of the bit that says "works are a result of faith". Perhaps you would care to cite chapter and verse, LouisBooth?

LouisBooth · Jan 26, 2002

"Where does James show that works are a result of faith? "

Chapter 1 and the first part of chapter 2

I explained it all to you before... Did you understand the illistration used by James in chapter 1?

Thunderchild · Jan 26, 2002

If there was any validity to your claim LouisBooth, you would have no difficulty in posting the quote that proves what you are saying is correct.

epobre · Jan 28, 2002

LouisBooth,

You haven't answered my question. How can a DEAD faith save? The verse says "faith WITHOUT works is DEAD."

Pastor Thunderchild is correct. The verse DOES NOT say "faith WITHOUT works 'that accompany salvation' is DEAD."

Ed

LouisBooth · Jan 29, 2002

*sigh* okay thunder I'll post it for you AGAIN.

"But prove yourselves does of the word, and mnot merely hearers that delude themselves." After this he does into an illistration talking about TRUE faith producing works. then in verse 14 of chapter 2 he summs up what he is saying, if you don't have works can such faith save him? James is saying its not REAL faith.He then illstrates it again by another example of doing what it in the heart.

"How can a DEAD faith save? "

Ed, ask the guy on the cross that was saved without doing a darn thing. No works at all. none..

epobre · Jan 29, 2002

LouisBooth,

I wrote:"How can a DEAD faith save? "

Ed, ask the guy on the cross that was saved without doing a darn thing. No works at all. none..

Louis, the thief on the cross was a lucky guy because he was born at the right time and at the right place. Jesus was there to grant him forgiveness without doing anything. Jesus was at that time authorized to forgive sins (Mark 2:10).

Before Jesus ascended to heaven, he left behind a "manual of instructions" for anyone to join him in paradise because he was no longer around to grant forgiveness of sins outright. Jesus forsaw that in the future, nobody else would be able to see what lies in the heart of men.

That's why Jesus built his church (Matt. 16:1 .

That's why Jesus said anyone who ENTERS (his church aka flock) will be saved (John 10:9).

That's why Jesus said he who BELIEVES and is BAPTIZED will be saved (Matrk 16:16).

That's why Jesus COMMANDED his disciples to BAPTIZE in the name of ....(Matt. 28:19).

That's why apostle Paul says God delivers His people from the powers of darkness and TRANSLATES them INTO the KINGDOM of His Son IN WHOM there is REDEMPTION through Christ's blood, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14).

That's why apostle Paul says that one who ENTERS the BODY of Christ is a NEW CREATION in Chhrist (2 Cor. 5:17) and must put on the NEW man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of (Col. 3:10).

Ed

LouisBooth · Jan 30, 2002

"Louis, the thief on the cross was a lucky guy because he was born at the right time and at the right place. Jesus was there to grant him forgiveness without doing anything. "

*sigh* :lol: sorry ed, God doesn't make exceptions to his rules. Its just proof that you don't need works to be saved. Like it was said ed, funny how Jesus NEVER baptised anyone...

Optimus_P · Jan 30, 2002

LouisBooth: I agree. You dont need works to be saved; but works help obtain more in heaven as long as they are whole heartedly for the Father and not for what you should reap when you enter the kingdom.

I guess it goes back to showing your faith. Do you have faith? yes/no... If so show me your faith. ya know what im sayin.

epobre · Jan 31, 2002

OptumusP,

LouisBooth: I agree. You dont need works to be saved; but works help obtain more in heaven as long as they are whole heartedly for the Father and not for what you should reap when you enter the kingdom.

I guess it goes back to showing your faith. Do you have faith? yes/no... If so show me your faith. ya know what im sayin.

I'm glad you are getting it my friend. In Matt. 7:21, Jesus seems to be saying exactly what you are saying. Show me your FAITH in me by DOING the WILL of the Father in heaven and you will enter the kingdom of heaven.

In Mark 16:16, Jesus seems to be saying, show me your FAITH in me by allowing yourself to be BAPTIZED into the true church of Christ and you will be saved.

In John 10:9 Jesus seems to be saying, show me your FAITH in me by ENTERING my BODY, the church aka flock and you will be saved.

Ed

Optimus_P · Jan 31, 2002

epobre:

i would hope what i am saying would follow hte lines of christ. i dont ever want to misconstrew the words of Christ in place of opinion with out it being stated befor that it is opinion.

LouisBooth · Feb 1, 2002

OP yup, ya got it. Faith alone..and works is a showing of that faith..they naturally come out, but unnatural things happen too. That's my point. Works have no part in salvation, it is an AFTER salvation thing.

Thunderchild · Feb 1, 2002

What does it mean to believe in Jesus Christ? Does it mean that you can call what he himself says a lie? Did he say "some will believe for a time, but in time of tribulation fall away."? That he did.

Did he say that baptism was an optional extra, of no account? No - he said go into all the world: baptise and teach them to do all that I have commanded you.

epobre · Feb 1, 2002

LouisBooth,

You wrote:

OP yup, ya got it. Faith alone..and works is a showing of that faith..they naturally come out, but unnatural things happen too. That's my point. Works have no part in salvation, it is an AFTER salvation thing.

Do you ever look at the verses that are posted? John 10:9 says "I am the door. If anyone ENTERS by me, he will be saved..."

How can you be saved BEFORE you perform the WORK of ENTERING by the door?

You have to show your FAITH by ENTERING by Jesus BEFORE you are saved.

Ed

LouisBooth · Feb 2, 2002

Ed and thunder. If we have any action that influences our salvation then we do NOT have salvation by grace and the bible teaches that salvation is BY grace and grace ALONE.

epobre · Feb 2, 2002

LouisBooth,

I wrote: o you ever look at the verses that are posted? John 10:9 says "I am the door. If anyone ENTERS by me, he will be saved..."

How can you be saved BEFORE you perform the WORK of ENTERING by the door?

You have to show your FAITH by ENTERING by Jesus BEFORE you are saved.

You wrote:Ed and thunder. If we have any action that influences our salvation then we do NOT have salvation by grace and the bible teaches that salvation is BY grace and grace ALONE.

First, you are LYING Louis. The Bible does not teach that man is saved by grace and grace ALONE. Show us the verse that says this.

Second, you haven't answered the question. You only succeeded in EVADING it.

How can you be saved by faith BEFORE performing the WORK of ENTERING?

Additionally, how can you be saved by faith BEFORE performing the WORK of DOING the WILL of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:21)?

Ed

nyj · Feb 4, 2002

Let us see what Jesus had to say about that:

Matthew 25: 31-46

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

It appears to me that the difference between the sheep and the goats is not their belief, because both professed belief in Christ, it is their actions, their works that stemmed from that belief. Indeed, faith alone is useless.

WhitBit · Feb 4, 2002

As recently posted in a nearby thread...8o

"Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you believed the message you heard about Christ. Have you lost your senses? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? You have suffered so much for the Good News. Surely it was not in vain, was it? Are you now going to just throw it away?"
~ Galatians 3:2-4

In essence...if one is in a position of finding validity in their salvation by their works...then they missed the point in the first place

"Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so that we can do the good things he planned for us long ago."
~ Ephesians 2:9-10

LouisBooth · Feb 4, 2002

an analogy to clearify that scripture for you and this issue.

If I get an invite and reply to it Thats an acceptable way its done. Now I can reply all I want to but if I don't get an invite, IT DOESN'T MATTER! Its the invite that validates the reply, not the other way around. Its the faith that valids savlation not works. Faith validates works. Works doesn't affect salvation or its not by grace. Salvation is by grace ALONE. Grace is something you can't earn OR WORK FOR.

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