TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
The bible does not teach original sin.
John said " sin is the transgression of the law " which makes the idea of original sin impossible.
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The bible does not teach original sin.If someone denies original sin he is a Pelagian heretic. No mainline Christian denominations deny original sin.
What church do you attend that teaches that? Or is that a conclusion that you arrived at on your own?
If someone denies original sin he is a Pelagian heretic. No mainline Christian denominations deny original sin.
What church do you attend that teaches that? Or is that a conclusion that you arrived at on your own?
Mark 10: 20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.” 21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Did Jesus lie to this rich young ruler, because if this rich young ruler was “totally depraved”, there would be nothing he could do to be saved?
If the rich young ruler had been regenerated at this time would he not follow the Shepherd (Christ)?
Jesus should have said: “the one thing you lack is regeneration”, to be perfectly honest with the young man, so was Jesus being dishonest with him?
Did Jesus love all totally depraved individuals or just this one?
Well, this is what Wikipedia has to say on the topic:Actually the one of the oldest denominations, the EOC, does not teach the doctrine of Original Sin, which was mistakenly formed because Augustine did not know Greek.
An existing fragment of one of Pelagius letters outlines all he was condemned of. The accusations were certainly heresies but the letter was written to deny that he ever believed or taught such things.
When all the churches together decided that Pelagius was a heretic, swayed by Augustine's faulty logic, the EOC did not join.
My bible does contain John 10 and it says nothing about men being totally depraved where man has to first be miraculously acted by God before man can understand.Unless your translation of the Bible doesn't contain John 10, you should know that your statement is untrue.
My bible does contain John 10 and it says nothing about men being totally depraved where man has to first be miraculously acted by God before man can understand.
You did not specify anything in John 10 so I will assume you refer to verse 26 "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."
Jesus is not saying one must first be of Him before one is able to believe. Such an idea puts salvation BEFORE belief which cannot be biblically supported.
Earlier in the context, John 8, Jesus is having a discourse with Jews, Pharisees.
Some believed him John 8:30-31. Then Jesus tells them "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." to which they took exception with "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?"
As the discourse goes on the Jews lay claim to being descendants of Abraham as if being Abraham's descendant was all needed to be saved. To which Christ replies " If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." If they were Abraham's (spiritual) children then they would do the works of Abraham, ie, have an obedient faith as Abraham in obeying God's will.
Christ says to these Jews "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham." To which they respond "We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God."
These Pharisees make the claim that they were "of God". So in John 10:26 when Jesus said "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." Jesus was proving they were not "believers indeed" (John 8:31) and not of God as they claimed. If these Pharisees were of God as they claimed and knew the OT law as they claimed they did, then they would have known that Jesus was the Messiah promised them and would have believed Him and been of Him. Yet their not being of Christ sheep was the proof-evidence of their unbelief and proof-evidence that they were not of God as they so claimed. As McGarvey puts it "Failure to be Christ's sheep was not the cause, but the evidence of their unbelief." (my emp)
I am a member of the church of Christ and I reach the same conclusion as the bible...no original sin. All men are born into the world pure and innocent....God " formeth the spirit of man within him" Zech 12:1 and God hath "made man upright" Eccl 7:29 so the soul in man would be as pure and upright as its Maker and thereby David would praise God "for I am fearfully and wonderfully made" Psalms 139:14. David was not praising God for making him an impure, vile, rebellious, lost reprobate sinner.What church do you attend that teaches that? Or is that a conclusion that you arrived at on your own?
As I already pointed out, all the contradictions on this forum alone shows a serious flaw in the idea that people understand by miraculous enlightenment by the Holy Spirit. If posters on this forum have their understanding miraculously 'enlightened" by the HS, then they would be just as infallible as the HS in their understanding. But just look at all the fallible contradictions. Have you, or anyone else on this forum, ever changed a view on a bible topic? If so, then was the HS in error and mislead on the issue earlier? How could one even objectively tell he has been "enlightened"? He couldn't.
The whole idea of this "miraculous enlightenment" is grounded in the idea of totally depravity which the bible does not teach.
I am not sure why you continue to write me concerning Calvinist doctrine, when I have already made it clear to you that I do not hold to Calvinist teaching. I hold original sin but I do not hold total depravity. So I will let you continue the debate concerning total depravity with people who hold that.There is no indication anywhere in the bible that before those Ephesians became Christians they were totally depraved and unable to understand without God first acting upon them so they could understand. Eph 3:4 shows they could understand the Ephesian epistle (or any other epistle) without divine miraculous intervention. This passage in Eph 3 shows that the things of God's mind was inspirationally revealed to inspired men as Paul who wrote it down so we can read. So we understand the things of God's mind through reading for no again, no verse says each individual has his own personal "pipeline" with the Holy Spirit. AS I posted in an earlier post, look at al the religious confusion, contradictions and untruth posted by 1000's of individuals just on this forum alone. If all posters here are all getting their "enlightenment" directly from the HS and not the written word, then the HS should be ashamed of Himself for all the confusion, untruths and striving that He is responsible for. I can easily say "you are wrong" for the HS "enlightened" me different from what you are saying".
Therefore Paul is NOT saying in Eph 1:17-18 those Ephesians need miraculous enlightenment from the HS to be able to understand, just be able to read the written word per Eph 3:4. So man's mind is capable of understanding but the mind must have the right attitude in understanding the bible and approach the bible with an open and honest heart. Many (if not most people) approach the bible with preconceptions and have the mindset to change the bible to fit their preconceptions, hence they will never have an understanding of the bible even though they have the ability to read the words. This is one reason why you can find so many contradictions within religion or just on this forum alone. So the "spirit of wisdom and understanding" does not refer to the Holy Spirit Himself but refers to an attitude of thinking, a correct disposition in making appropriate discernments pertaining to God's word. One must have the right type of "soil" (heart) for the seed (the word of God), to grow and flourish, Luke 8:15..." they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience." This "honest and good" heart is the spirit of wisdom and understanding.
Paul said "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:7. Again this spirit of power, love and a sound mind is not the Holy Spirit Himself but a mental, attitudinal disposition. In God giving one a spirit of wisdom and understanding and a spirit of power, love and a sound mind does not mean the individual does nothing while God does everything. The individual has a role in cooperating with God by having the correct disposition, attitude in gaining the proper wisdom, understanding, power, love and sound mind.
It's a simple sentence: But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
It can only be taken one way. The reason they don't believe is that they are not His sheep.
Thank you. But could you please be a little more specific?I am a member of the church of Christ
No, for your way has one saved (of Christ's sheep) BEFORE one even believes which goes against the numerous verses that put belief/faith BEFORE salvation. The next verse says (v27) "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" Jesus said MY SHEEP, his is a qualifying statement that to qualify to be of Christ's sheep one must hear and follow. You have one of Christ's sheep BEFORE one hears and follows. John 3:18 unbelief is an "condemned already" state not a "saved already" state as you have it.
Jesus was simply refuting the Pharisees claim they were believers who were of God.
Again McGarvey says "Failure to be Christ's sheep was not the cause, but the evidence of their unbelief"
Their not being of Christ's sheep was proof they were not believers-not of God has they claimed and not the cause of their unbelief.
Without Him we can do nothing........nothing, nothing, nada. It is not just for understanding the scriptures, though He does Help us with that too.
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit so as to not leave us as orphans. He didn't send the Holy Spirit and then take Him away later thereby making us orphans.......we who have the SPIRIT of adoption. And His spiritual gifts are for the edifying of the church.....when did the church stop needing to be edified. But never mind, I said I would not argue.
Every time (and I mean every time) any discusion where Reformed theology is brought up, some sort of "but man has free will" argument arises, as if the secular humanistic view of free will is some sort of counter argument.
So my question is this. Can the natural man do anything that's spiritually good? Or to ask another way, can the natural man do anything to glorify God?
I am not sure why you continue to write me concerning Calvinist doctrine, when I have already made it clear to you that I do not hold to Calvinist teaching. I hold original sin but I do not hold total depravity. So I will let you continue the debate concerning total depravity with people who hold that.
Nor is my position that non-believers "miraculous enlightenment from the HS to be able to understand, just be able to read the written word". It appears that you have misunderstood my position.
If you want to know exactly what I hold, you can read these documents:
During the time of Felix IV
Paul III Council of Trent-5
Paul III Council of Trent-6
Now, you believe that there is no "original sin" and that man has free will to choose good or evil. Thus, logically, you must hold that man is capable of meriting his own salvation without applying the merits that Jesus earned by his death on the cross. That is, because a man is not condemned by Adam's original sin, and because a man has free will and the ability to choose good and evil, all he need do is choose good over evil throughout his life, and if he does not sin, he should go to heaven regardless of whether or not he ever hears or accepts the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the logical conclusion that flows from the views that you hold, and it is what the Pelagians held. Are you OK with that?
I never assumed total depravity from this text. You made a comment about the text, I asked you to defend the comment, and instead of doing that, you started in on what you think I believe about the text, and still haven't answered the challenge.The context says nothing about total depravity at all. Therefore that idea is being assumed into the text.
If you can assume total depravity in the context of Acts 2, then what stops anyone from assuming anything into any text?
Acts 2:37 when Peter finishes speaking it says "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
The Greek word for "heard" is akouo meaning a hearing with a view to learning, to perceive, to understand. So where does it say they could have only 'heard' if first acted upon by God?
Again, John 6:45 God draws by His word when men are "taught" "heard" and "learned". God's drawing would be useless, senseless if no one could possible understand.
Adam transgressed the law.The bible does not teach original sin.
John said " sin is the transgression of the law " which makes the idea of original sin impossible.
I have not seen the term "saving faith" in the bible, but Paul did say in Colossians as you have received Christ Jesus (which starts out with a measure, though faith the size of a mustard seed is more than proficient) and even a little faith must work by love (unless that statement to begin with is not accurate) so walk ye in him, which is simply by faith, Paul professing that you can't come to God unless you first believe that he is (which connects with the measure), and we know we cannot come to him unless he first draws us (really, how can you come to something you cannot physically see outside of faith).
Thank you. But could you please be a little more specific?
Church of Christ may refer to:Are you referring to any of the churches listed above, or is safe for us to assume that you have set up the Seabass Church of Christ in your own backyard?
- One of several New Testament designations for local groups of people following the teachings of Jesus Christ; the term is plural, only the plural form is found in the Bible (e.g., Romans 16:16)
- The entire body of Christians throughout the world, regardless of denomination or tradition, i.e. the Christian Church or Christendom.
- The Orthodox Church or the Roman Catholic Church (primarily used by members of these churches)
- Churches influenced by the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement:
- Restoration Movement groups originating in Scotland and the U.S.
- Churches of Christ
- The churches of Christ (non-institutional), an identifiable subgroup within the churches of Christ which opposes congregational support of institutions (such as orphans homes, Bible colleges, etc. on the basis of lack of adequate Biblical support for doing so)
- Christian churches and churches of Christ
- Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
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- Other historically related groups
- Churches of Christ (non-Restoration Movement), autonomous congregations using the name "church of Christ" that have no historical connection to the Restoration Movement
- Latter Day Saint denominations, which include:
- Church of Christ (Latter Day Saints) - the original Latter Day Saint church founded by Joseph Smith in 1830.
- Pure Church of Christ - First schismatic sect in the Latter Day Saint movement, this denomination was organized in 1831 in Kirtland, Ohio, by Wycam Clark and Northrop Sweet.
- Church of Christ (Ezra Booth) - A schismatic sect organized in 1836 by Ezra Booth in Kirtland, Ohio.
- Church of Christ (Parrishite), an extinct Latter Day Saint denomination organized in 1837 by Warren Parrish in Kirtland, Ohio.
- Church of Christ (William Chubby), an extinct Latter Day Saint denomination organized in the Late 1830s by William Chubby.
- Church of Christ (Hiram Page), an extinct Latter Day Saint denomination organized in 1842 by Hiram Page, one of the Eight Witnesses to the Book of Mormon's golden plates.
- Church of Christ (Wightite) - This denomination, founded by Lyman Wight in 1844, split from the Church of Christ (Latter Day Saints) at the death of Joseph Smith.
- Church of Christ (Temple Lot) - Informally referred to as "Hedrickites", this denomination is headquartered in Independence, Missouri. on what is known as the Temple Lot. It was founded by Granville Hedrick in July 1863.
- Church of Christ (Fettingite) - Informally referred to as the "Fettingites", after its founder Otto Fetting, this denomination is split from the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) in 1929.
- Church of Christ with the Elijah Message, which broke away from the Temple Lot church in 1929
- Church of Christ (Restored) - This denomination split from the Church of Christ (Fettingite) in the late 1930s under the leadership of A. C. DeWolf.
- Church of Christ at Halley's Bluff, which broke away from the Temple Lot church in 1932
- Church of Christ (Hancock) - Founded by Pauline Hancock, this denomination is split from the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) in 1946.
- Church of Christ (Whitmerite) - A denomination, founded in 1847 and reformed 1871, based on the claims of David Whitmer, one of the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon.
- Church of Christ (Brewsterite) - A denomination founded in 1848 by James C. Brewster and Hazen Aldrich.
- Latter Day Church of Christ, a Mormon fundamentalist denomination based in Utah
- Church of Christ (David Clark) - Also known as "Lion of God Ministry". Clark broke from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in November 1985.
- Church of Christ - This denomination, founded by Howard Leighton-Floyd and H. H. Burt in 1965, split from the Church of Christ With the Elijah Message.
- Church of Christ in Congo, the administrative and spiritual union of denominations in the Democratic Republic of the Congo
- Church of Christ in Thailand, the largest Protestant Church in Thailand.
- Church of Christ, Instrumental, also known as the Kelleyites, a Baptist denomination in Arkansas
- Church of Christ, Scientist, also known as Christian Science
- Iglesia ni Cristo (Filipino translation for "Church of Christ"), an independent church originating in the Philippines
- United Church of Christ in the Philippines, the largest Protestant group in the Philippines
- United Church of Christ – Congregational in the Marshall Islands, the largest religious group in the Marshall Islands
- United Church of Christ, a mainline Protestant denomination in the United States amalgamated from four congregationalist groups in 1957 (see also Christian Connexion)
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