On Christians not wanted outsiders

[DarkProphet]

So strange as it sounds I'm friends with a youth minister. He runs a youth program at a church that is geared toward non-church members, it's basically a skate park with a Christian component. Despite the Christian aspect of the program I help him out as he is my friend and the program helps these kids in a genuine way.

The problem is that the church that hosts the park has always opposed the program. They have cut funding at every chance and refuse to lend us any support of any kind. This is fine as apparently my friend was resourceful enough to secure outside sponsors. Lately though it seems that the church has been trying to put the squeeze on my friend. In the past few months they have kicked him out of his office, forced a barrage of new restrictions on the program, and canceled the main fundraiser event (by pulling the church volunteers).

I'm an outsider and I don't know the internal workings of the church but from what I've heard from the other people that help out the church does not hide their contempt for the program.

Isn't this what Christianity supposed to be about? Reaching out to community? Then why do most the Christians I've interacted with only care about shielding themselves from the outside world?

 

[drich0150]

Isn't this what Christianity supposed to be about? Reaching out to community? Then why do most the Christians I've interacted with only care about shielding themselves from the outside world?

There is always two sides to every story, but from what you have described I would assume that you and your friend are witnessing "christianity" as a religious expression (man's attempt to be holy, aside from what God wants from us.) or maybe even as a business. Like with any other charity or good intentioned community effort the "church" is not immune to bad decisions..
More than we would like to admit in recent times, the church has made decisions that protects the method, or denominationally specific brand of perceived worship rather than staying in the spirit of what "worship" is all about..

It's kinda like the story of temple priests who left a beaten and near death Jewish brother long side of the road, "Because helping him would make them late for official church business." And the one who finally stops and arranges care for the broken man would by all accounts be considered an (unclean) outsider, as he was a Samaritan.

This is why it can be said that "God" and "religion" don't mix.

The only real recourse is to remain faithful to what you do have so long as you have it. This is what's really important.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Hey, DP

Isn't this what Christianity supposed to be about? Reaching out to community?

Very much so. Well, it's about glorifying God but, yeah, we do that largely by reaching out to people. As drich said, there may well be stuff going on behind the scenes that you're unaware of... some of which may mitigate. Or it may not. Either way, we're commanded to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give to the poor, look after the widows; we're to be His hands, yes.

Then why do most the Christians I've interacted with only care about shielding themselves from the outside world?

Any person who posts at this forum does so because, on some level, they're unable to get something they need from "real life". Being a forum regular, having a life online, denotes a certain degree of withdrawl from the world, and a certain degree of shielding from the outside world. Why do any of us do it?

Being withdrawn, though, doesn't necessarily imply a lack of love, or outreach, too. But that's when dealing with individual Christians. Churches are a different issue entirely... if churches were how they're supposed to be, I don't think Christianity would be coming under the degree of attack that it is.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

So strange as it sounds I'm friends with a youth minister. He runs a youth program at a church that is geared toward non-church members, it's basically a skate park with a Christian component. Despite the Christian aspect of the program I help him out as he is my friend and the program helps these kids in a genuine way.

The problem is that the church that hosts the park has always opposed the program. They have cut funding at every chance and refuse to lend us any support of any kind. This is fine as apparently my friend was resourceful enough to secure outside sponsors. Lately though it seems that the church has been trying to put the squeeze on my friend. In the past few months they have kicked him out of his office, forced a barrage of new restrictions on the program, and canceled the main fundraiser event (by pulling the church volunteers).

I'm an outsider and I don't know the internal workings of the church but from what I've heard from the other people that help out the church does not hide their contempt for the program.

Isn't this what Christianity supposed to be about? Reaching out to community? Then why do most the Christians I've interacted with only care about shielding themselves from the outside world?

Like somebody else said, there are two sides to every story and I'm not convinced that this is all there is to the story.

One thing your friend may not be stopping to consider is that things like skate parks carry huge liability issues with them and the church may not be prepared to deal with that.

But for me, the biggest issue is why your friend is going against his church and not submitting to them.

I don't see anything in the Bible about providing entertainment for the lost. It's more important for your friend to be obedient to his church than it is for him to run a skate park.

 

[Celticflower]

The problem may also heve to do with the make up of the congregation. Some churches (or their leaders) are actually afraid of growth and will do anything to nip it in the bud. I attended a church like that for awhile. Everytime the pastor presented an idea to reach out to the community it was shot down by the deacons and elders. The only support he got was from the youth pastor, but he was invited to be Sr pastor at a new church in another state. After that things got so bad that they actually forced the pastor out of the church. And the stress almost destroyed the man's marriage. All because he wanted to reach out and bring new people into the church.

Now, (10+ years on), the pastor and his wife have managed to strengthen their marriage and he is pastor at another church, my family has moved on to another church and the original church has split in two over - you guessed it - a pastor who wanted to grow the church.

 

[aiki]

A few years ago, I helped convert a large warehouse building into a skatepark for Youth for Christ. I built some half-pipes and a nine foot spine ramp, too. Doing this allowed me to watch pretty closely what kind of spiritual ministry was exercised through the skatepark. To be frank, I don't think the skatepark, as a means of sharing Christ with people and glorifying God, succeeded much at all. Christians are exhorted in Scripture:

1 Corinthians 10:31 (NKJV)
31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

God didn't get much glory through the skatepark. His name wasn't lifted up and praised by the people skating or the folk running the park. If it had been, the place would have been empty. And this is the problem with such ministries: When God is given the prominence, the glory, He is due through them, people who don't love God get turned off. This is even more true in an instance such as the skatepark where it wasn't a legitimate need that was being met. If a skater felt even the slightest discomfort with the inclusion of God in the skatepark environment, he could (and would) go elsewhere to skate. As a Christian ministry, then, it worked very poorly.

Anyway, maybe your youth-worker friend is different and he is able truly to give God all the glory He is due through the skatepark. Maybe the skaters at his park listen easily to him when he shares the gospel with them. Maybe many people are being saved through the efforts of your friend. But, then, maybe not. Perhaps your friend's skatepark has the same problems that the skatepark I worked at had with bringing God into the skater's world. If so, I can understand why the church is withdrawing its support. A church has only so many resources available in pursuing the goals God has set for it. The leaders of the church may believe that a skatepark doesn't give a very good spiritual return on the church's investment.

In the end, I can only guess. I am likely way off base. As others have pointed out, it is really quite impossible to say accurately what may or may not be the truth of the situation from our very distant vantage point. But, you did ask for thoughts and so I've given a few of mine that I thought might be pertinent.

Peace to you.

 

[AV1611VET]

So strange as it sounds I'm friends with a youth minister. He runs a youth program at a church that is geared toward non-church members, it's basically a skate park with a Christian component. Despite the Christian aspect of the program I help him out as he is my friend and the program helps these kids in a genuine way.

The problem is that the church that hosts the park has always opposed the program. They have cut funding at every chance and refuse to lend us any support of any kind. This is fine as apparently my friend was resourceful enough to secure outside sponsors. Lately though it seems that the church has been trying to put the squeeze on my friend. In the past few months they have kicked him out of his office, forced a barrage of new restrictions on the program, and canceled the main fundraiser event (by pulling the church volunteers).

I'm an outsider and I don't know the internal workings of the church but from what I've heard from the other people that help out the church does not hide their contempt for the program.

Isn't this what Christianity supposed to be about? Reaching out to community? Then why do most the Christians I've interacted with only care about shielding themselves from the outside world?

There's too much you're not telling us here.

Note the part I highlighted.

What stipulations, if any, came with this outside sponsorship?

Would the church have had to:

• put in a TV set and lounge
• an ATM
• advertisements
• abrogate its tax-free status?

 

[DarkProphet]

A few years ago, I helped convert a large warehouse building into a skatepark for Youth for Christ. I built some half-pipes and a nine foot spine ramp, too. Doing this allowed me to watch pretty closely what kind of spiritual ministry was exercised through the skatepark. To be frank, I don't think the skatepark, as a means of sharing Christ with people and glorifying God, succeeded much at all. Christians are exhorted in Scripture:

1 Corinthians 10:31 (NKJV)
31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

God didn't get much glory through the skatepark. His name wasn't lifted up and praised by the people skating or the folk running the park. If it had been, the place would have been empty. And this is the problem with such ministries: When God is given the prominence, the glory, He is due through them, people who don't love God get turned off. This is even more true in an instance such as the skatepark where it wasn't a legitimate need that was being met. If a skater felt even the slightest discomfort with the inclusion of God in the skatepark environment, he could (and would) go elsewhere to skate. As a Christian ministry, then, it worked very poorly.

Anyway, maybe your youth-worker friend is different and he is able truly to give God all the glory He is due through the skatepark. Maybe the skaters at his park listen easily to him when he shares the gospel with them. Maybe many people are being saved through the efforts of your friend. But, then, maybe not. Perhaps your friend's skatepark has the same problems that the skatepark I worked at had with bringing God into the skater's world. If so, I can understand why the church is withdrawing its support. A church has only so many resources available in pursuing the goals God has set for it. The leaders of the church may believe that a skatepark doesn't give a very good spiritual return on the church's investment.

I believe the exact words that were said to another helper was "the skatepark is a waste of money". Except of course it is by far the cheapest ministry they have while at the same time being the largest. It's true that most of the attendants are not Christian but I thought that was the point, to teach non-Christians about Christ. I'm not sure what it would mean to "glorify God" in terms of a skatepark, it's not a concern of mine, but this program does create a healthy community in an otherwise bad neighborhood.

In the end, I can only guess. I am likely way off base. As others have pointed out, it is really quite impossible to say accurately what may or may not be the truth of the situation from our very distant vantage point. But, you did ask for thoughts and so I've given a few of mine that I thought might be pertinent.

Peace to you.

They are pertinent, thank you.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

It's true that most of the attendants are not Christian but I thought that was the point, to teach non-Christians about Christ.

And how do you teach non-Christians about Christ by riding a skate board?

We're not called to teach non-Christians about Christ. We're called to preach the Gospel to them.

 

[DarkProphet]

There's too much you're not telling us here.

Much of the cost was the initial cost of the ramp construction. The maintenance cost is relatively low. Much of it is offset with snack sales during the program. The rest is raised with a competition with sponsors. The participants cover their own insurance cost, a yearly 30 dollar fee. Any surplus is used to cover someone who can't pay or to expand the program.

Note the part I highlighted.

What stipulations, if any, came with this outside sponsorship?

Would the church have had to:

• put in a TV set and lounge

No, but the church does have one for their own people that we dont' have access to.

• an ATM

No, but I wouldn't put it past the church to install one for donations.

• advertisements

Some sponsors helped with ramp repairs and have stickers on the ramps. Mostly though they are looking for good skaters to sponsor and help promote them. This is a good deal for the skaters themselves.

• abrogate its tax-free status?

Never thought about that, I don't know how tax-free status works but I doubt our actions jeopardize it, or at least it have never come up before.

 

[DarkProphet]

And how do you teach non-Christians about Christ by riding a skate board?

We're not called to teach non-Christians about Christ. We're called to preach the Gospel to them.

There is a required Christian lesson at every session. If they don't show up to the lesson then they can't ride in the skatepark.

 

[BobW188]

Q: How do you teach Christianity by riding a skateboard?

A. (Courtesy of Saint Francis of Asisi): "Preach the gospel! Use words if necessary!"

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Q: How do you teach Christianity by riding a skateboard?

A. (Courtesy of Saint Francis of Asisi): "Preach the gospel! Use words if necessary!"

Courtesy of Ray Comfort: That's almost as dumb as saying, "feed starving children. Use food if necessary".

 

[JohnDeereFan]

There is a required Christian lesson at every session.

Where does the Bible tell us to give "Christian lessons" to non-Christians?

 

[Celticflower]

We're not called to teach non-Christians about Christ. We're called to preach the Gospel to them.

And the difference is........?

In order to preach the Gospel (which I was taught is the Good News that Jesus came to offer salvation for all who will believe in Him) don't you need to include a bit about who Jesus is and why He came in the first place?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

And the difference is........?

The difference is that the preaching of the Gospel brings about conviction of sin and leads to salvation. Teaching about Jesus just teaches people about Jesus.

In order to preach the Gospel (which I was taught is the Good News that Jesus came to offer salvation for all who will believe in Him) don't you need to include a bit about who Jesus is and why He came in the first place?

Yes, but not until after you've explained to them why they need Christ.

In any event, that isn't what he said. I'm only responding to his statements about teaching people about Jesus through skateboarding and giving them "Christian lessons".

 

[Celticflower]

Shouldn't you tell the who they need before you tell them why they need him? Seems to me they go hand in hand in the long run anyway.

And is giving "Christian lessons" so far removed from making people at a soup kitchen run by a church listen to a sermon before or after they eat? Or inviting neighborhood kids from outside the church to vacation Bible school? Maybe it was his terminology. Would you approve if he had said a "Bible lesson"?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Shouldn't you tell the who they need before you tell them why they need him? Seems to me they go hand in hand in the long run anyway.

If you were a doctor it wouldn't make much sense to tell your patient about the medicine before you told him he's sick, would it?

And is giving "Christian lessons" so far removed from making people at a soup kitchen run by a church listen to a sermon before or after they eat?

As he is describing it, yes.

Would you approve if he had said a "Bible lesson"?

What's the point of giving a Bible lesson to somebody who's not even saved? Knowing the Bible isn't going to help them when they go to Hell.

 

[chosenpath]

So strange as it sounds I'm friends with a youth minister. He runs a youth program at a church that is geared toward non-church members, it's basically a skate park with a Christian component. Despite the Christian aspect of the program I help him out as he is my friend and the program helps these kids in a genuine way.

The problem is that the church that hosts the park has always opposed the program. They have cut funding at every chance and refuse to lend us any support of any kind. This is fine as apparently my friend was resourceful enough to secure outside sponsors. Lately though it seems that the church has been trying to put the squeeze on my friend. In the past few months they have kicked him out of his office, forced a barrage of new restrictions on the program, and canceled the main fundraiser event (by pulling the church volunteers).

I'm an outsider and I don't know the internal workings of the church but from what I've heard from the other people that help out the church does not hide their contempt for the program.

Isn't this what Christianity supposed to be about? Reaching out to community? Then why do most the Christians I've interacted with only care about shielding themselves from the outside world?

I think it is wonderful that you assist your friend in his ministry and have a deep concern. I will pray that if this venture does not succeed that your friend continues to perservere in reaching out to the community. This would give glory to God. Remind your friend that through faith all things are possible with God. You see we are not shielding ourselves from the world but as we grow in faith God may send us into other areas where the knowledge we have gained may be beneficial.

 

[DarkProphet]

If you were a doctor it wouldn't make much sense to tell your patient about the medicine before you told him he's sick, would it?

Actually, yes it would. You would tell the patient the risks and benefits of the medication because ultimatitly it's the patients decision.

As he is describing it, yes.

I'll admit I'm not describing it very well. For obvious reasons that aspect is not that important to me but it is to my friend. The lesson is a short 15 minute lesson on one topic on the Bible. It changes from week to week.

What's the point of giving a Bible lesson to somebody who's not even saved?

Are you saying that these kids are not worth saving just because they are not part of your exclusive club?

Knowing the Bible isn't going to help them when they go to Hell.

So now you condemn them to hell, how very Christian. Besides, not ALL of them are non-Christian just most and even then wouldn't it be worth it to TRY?