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What doesn´t seem to work here is your god concept.Lilly of the Valley said:There are big errors in this. Because lets go on the assumption that there is a God. Okay, well, He said that He wills all man to be saved. Thus, If Him knowing beforehand our actions determined it and we had no choices then He's be basically wanting and willing the people that go to hell to go there, when He clearly said He wants all men to be saved. So it just doesn't work.
Is everything that happens the will of God?Lilly of the Valley said:There are big errors in this. Because lets go on the assumption that there is a God. Okay, well, He said that He wills all man to be saved. Thus, If Him knowing beforehand our actions determined it and we had no choices then He's be basically wanting and willing the people that go to hell to go there, when He clearly said He wants all men to be saved. So it just doesn't work.
quatona said:No, I just took the pie. Whether it was my choice or not is the very point of this discussion.
So, when a leaf is faced w/a decision...it isn´t choosing? For example: The leaf has the choice to remain on the tree or to drop to the ground. It chooses to drop to the ground. Did it not just make a choice?
That´s an ok definition. The question, however, is whether I can determine something that has already be determined.Lilly of the Valley said:Leaves don't think and make decisions. An action happens when you make a decision on what you are going to do. An action is the result of mental assent and what you determined to do, thus chose.
You say it isn´t, I say it is. I provided an argumentation, you - instead of refuting it - merely reaffirmate your opinion.If you don't chose anything, then everything you do you just do and nothing on your part is involved but you just doing it, which isn't how it is.
Well, your argumentation was flawed (in that it merely begged the question) in your 1st paragraph already...You make decisions/choices everyday and they aren't just actions due to what I said in the 1st paragraph.
Whilst humans do think but don´t make decisions (in your scenario of their actions being foreknown). Even what they think would be foreknown, hence not a choice on their part.Lilly of the Valley said:Leaves don't think and make decisions.
quatona said:That´s an ok definition. The question, however, is whether I can determine something that has already be determined.
You say it isn´t, I say it is. I provided an argumentation, you - instead of refuting it - merely reaffirmate your opinion.
Well, your argumentation was flawed (in that it merely begged the question) in your 1st paragraph already...
Then some things are willed by God and others are not?Lilly of the Valley said:
Yes Lilly, this is extremely problematic. It is not logically possible for your God concept to reconcile free will and foreknowledge. If God knows - beforehand - who will be saved and will be damned then there is no choice made by you for either. This is why the Calvinists are a bit more consistent in their theology than most others.Lilly of the Valley said:There are big errors in this. Because lets go on the assumption that there is a God. Okay, well, He said that He wills all man to be saved. Thus, If Him knowing beforehand our actions determined it and we had no choices then He's be basically wanting and willing the people that go to hell to go there, when He clearly said He wants all men to be saved. So it just doesn't work.
Ok. However, I don´t see how it is an explanation at all. If it is already determined it can not be up to me. Or else the term "determined" makes no sense at all.Lilly of the Valley said:Okay, what is already determined is due to yourself and/or up to you. That's the best way to really explain it that I can think of at the moment.
If Lilly's position is that God does not will all actions, then he can have foreknowledge of a choice without determining the outcome of that choice. Having foreknowledge of an event does not equal controlling the outcome.quatona said:Ok. However, I don´t see how it is an explanation at all. If it is already determined it can not be up to me. Or else the term "determined" makes no sense at all.
To be honest, I am getting a bit tired of repeating that this is not my claim.BigCedar said:If Lilly's position is that God does not will all actions, then he can have foreknowledge of a choice without determining the outcome of that choice. Having foreknowledge of an event does not equal controlling the outcome.
Sure not, but it would mean that these actions won´t be choices of the actors. And that´s all I am saying.If you were given a book that told the outcome of future events it would not mean you personally determined those events.
BigCedar said:Then some things are willed by God and others are not?
Danhalen said:Yes Lilly, this is extremely problematic. It is not logically possible for your God concept to reconcile free will and foreknowledge. If God knows - beforehand - who will be saved and will be damned then there is no choice made by you for either. This is why the Calvinists are a bit more consistent in their theology than most others.
quatona said:Ok. However, I don´t see how it is an explanation at all. If it is already determined it can not be up to me. Or else the term "determined" makes no sense at all.
No your not choosing your acting out what you will do. But this is only if it is possible to know everything 100%. In fact no one needs to know it 100% if it can be known 100% then there is no freewill.Lilly of the Valley said:So when faced w/ a decision...you aren't choosing? For example: You have to choose pie or cake. You choose pie. Did you not just make a choice?
Natro said:No your not choosing your acting out what you will do. But this is only if it is possible to know everything 100%. In fact no one needs to know it 100% if it can be known 100% then there is no freewill.
No thought is involved and you think your making a choice but in reality there is only 1 choice and it was set way befor you came into existance, and noone can do anything about it. The fact is that the choice would be a illusion, it may seem real but it is not realy real no matter how real you think it is, because God proved it wasn't ever real. God didn't destroy freewill by knowing 100% what will happen. God proves there was never freewill by knowing 100% what will happen.Lilly of the Valley said:How do you know what to do? Do you just do it w/o thought?
Natro said:No thought is involved and you think your making a choice but in reality there is only 1 choice and it was set way befor you came into existance, and noone can do anything about it. The fact is that the choice would be a illusion, it may seem real but it is not realy real no matter how real you think it is, because God proved it wasn't ever real. God didn't destroy freewill by knowing 100% what will happen. God proves there was never freewill by knowing 100% what will happen.
No infact he in the same boat as everyone else. He can't have freewill since with him all knowing proving that it never existed, which means His will is also not free since all freewill doesn't exist. And its worst for him since even if he wants to change what will happen he can't because he knows he won't.Lilly of the Valley said:So God wants people to go to hell?
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