Omniscience causal

quatona · Feb 25, 2006

Hi, Lilly, long time no see!
Please don´t forget in all these hypotheticals that atheists don´t believe in Gods.

Lilly of the Valley said:
So you are saying God determines what we will do?

No, he did not say this. He said that it is determined, if it can be foreknown.
You are the one making claims about Gods, and we are the ones who merely draw conclusions from your claims, hypothetically accepting your claims were true.
Your claim #1: Everything is foreknown by God. Conclusion #1: Since foreknown actions must be determined, there is no choice in them. (Note, that we haven´t yet talked about who has determined them. Just that the fact that they are foreknown (by whomever) indicates that there is no choice. It does not even necessarily mean that there has to be a determining person/entity.
Your claims #2,3,...: God has created everything, God is omnipotent...
Conclusions #2: God must be the one who has determined things, because according to your claim there is noone who can have determined it so that God could know it.

That God wants us to do the things we choose?

I don´t make any assumptions about the desires of your God (and I am pretty sure neither does Natro). We are just looking at your claims and point out the logical implications they have.

God knowing it doesn't mean He is controling it or even wants it.

If we are not the ones who control it (as is indicated by the fact that it is foreknown) and God isn´t the one either (by virtue of your assertion), whom would you suggest for the controlling entitiy?

If someone does something that you don't want and they have the option of doing that, then that is free will/choice.

Someone has to break it to you, so it can as well be me: a choice requires at least two options.

Natro · Feb 25, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
So you are saying God determines what we will do? That God wants us to do the things we choose? God knowing it doesn't mean He is controling it or even wants it. If someone does something that you don't want and they have the option of doing that, then that is free will/choice.

Nope I am not saying that God determined what happens I am saying even god doesn't have freewill since his own knowledge prove freewill never existed.

Lilly of the Valley · Feb 25, 2006

quatona said:
Hi, Lilly, long time no see!
Please don´t forget in all these hypotheticals that atheists don´t believe in Gods.

No, he did not say this. He said that it is determined, if it can be foreknown.
You are the one making claims about Gods, and we are the ones who merely draw conclusions from your claims, hypothetically accepting your claims were true.
Your claim #1: Everything is foreknown by God. Conclusion #1: Since foreknown actions must be determined, there is no choice in them. (Note, that we haven´t yet talked about who has determined them. Just that the fact that they are foreknown (by whomever) indicates that there is no choice. It does not even necessarily mean that there has to be a determining person/entity.
Your claims #2,3,...: God has created everything, God is omnipotent...
Conclusions #2: God must be the one who has determined things, because according to your claim there is noone who can have determined it so that God could know it.

I don´t make any assumptions about the desires of your God (and I am pretty sure neither does Natro). We are just looking at your claims and point out the logical implications they have.

If we are not the ones who control it (as is indicated by the fact that it is foreknown) and God isn´t the one either (by virtue of your assertion), whom would you suggest for the controlling entitiy?

Someone has to break it to you, so it can as well be me: a choice requires at least two options.

The problem is, there is a choice, God simply knows the choice that you are going to make freely. Him knowing it doesn't mean that you aren't having freedom in choosing.

What exactly do you mean by controling? Controling choices?

There are two options: Serve and obey God or serve and obey your own will. Life and death, you choose one. It's that simple.

ImmortalTechnique · Feb 25, 2006

him knowing means that there IS no choice. if the outcome is known, then there is only one possible outcome. no choice.

:æ: · Feb 25, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
The problem is, there is a choice, God simply knows the choice that you are going to make freely. Him knowing it doesn't mean that you aren't having freedom in choosing.

Your claim is incoherent. Let's flesh it out:

First, define choice. A choice is the independant selection of one probable future out of several valid probable futures. For example, at breakfast you might have the choice to drink milk or orange juice. Before you have made your choice, the probable futures "I'm drinking milk" and "I'm drinking orange juice" are each equally valid if not equally probable. That means either option CAN happen.

If there was no milk but only orange juice, it would be nonsensical to say you had a choice between milk and orange juice. There is only one option.You don't "choose" among only one option. The probable future "I'm drinking milk" cannot happen. It has a probability of exactly ZERO.

Now, suppose that God knows in advance that you will drink orange juice at breakfast. God's knowledge is supposed to be infallible. Infallible means that there is ZERO probability of the knowledge being false. This can only mean that the future of "I'm drinking milk" has exactly ZERO probability as well. If we were to suppose that "I'm drinking milk" had a 25% probability, then that would mean we think there is a 25% chance that God's knowledge of "I'm drinking orange juice" is false. Yet we have already decided that God cannot be wrong, so we cannot suppose any non-zero probability for the milk.

In this case, it is no different than if there was no milk in the first place. There is ZERO probability that you will drink milk in your future, because God already knows you'll drink orange juice. When a person does not have at least two valid probabilities to select from, he does not have a choice, so it is incoherent to say that God knows in advance the free choices one will make.

What exactly do you mean by controling? Controling choices?

Rather, limiting options to only 1, thereby making choice meaningless.

There are two options: Serve and obey God or serve and obey your own will. Life and death, you choose one. It's that simple.

But if God already knows the outcome, the alternative has ZERO probability, which is the same as saying that there is no alternative. When a person has no alternative, one cannot cannot say he has a choice.

Natro · Feb 25, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
The problem is, there is a choice, God simply knows the choice that you are going to make freely. Him knowing it doesn't mean that you aren't having freedom in choosing.

What exactly do you mean by controling? Controling choices?

There are two options: Serve and obey God or serve and obey your own will. Life and death, you choose one. It's that simple.

If he knows 100% whats going to happen then there is no freedom of choice... Since anyone knowing 100% of whats going to happen proves that there is not freedom of choice.

Even if God doesn't control the choice directly it still means there is no freewill. That freewill never existed.

No you just percieve two options the only real option is what God knows what will happen.

Lilly of the Valley · Feb 25, 2006

Natro said:
If he knows 100% whats going to happen then there is no freedom of choice... Since anyone knowing 100% of whats going to happen proves that there is not freedom of choice.

Even if God doesn't control the choice directly it still means there is no freewill. That freewill never existed.

No you just percieve two options the only real option is what God knows what will happen.

Okay, God knows what will happen, but in Him knowing you choose it. What you choose He knows. The fact that you are making a choice freely is the free will. Him knowing in no way interferes w/ that.

CCGirl · Feb 25, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
So you are saying God determines what we will do?

If he is all knowing, then yes, he has determined what we will do.

That God wants us to do the things we choose?

If he already knows ahead of time what you will or will not do, how is that a choice? That is an illusion of choice, since the outcome has already been predetermined by god.

God knowing it doesn't mean He is controling it or even wants it.

But he already determined our "choices" long before we existed. How is that not controlling our "choices"? What do you think it means?

Natro · Feb 25, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
Okay, God knows what will happen, but in Him knowing you choose it. What you choose He knows. The fact that you are making a choice freely is the free will. Him knowing in no way interferes w/ that.

No lilly you act not choose.(you may think you choose but you realy and truely are not choosing). You are acting out what he knows not choosing to do what you will do. You can not have someone knowing 100% of what will happen or it proves there is no freewill. In fact its the only way to prove there is no freewill.

CCGirl · Feb 25, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
Okay, God knows what will happen, but in Him knowing you choose it. What you choose He knows. The fact that you are making a choice freely is the free will. Him knowing in no way interferes w/ that.

That makes no sense!!! If the outcome is predetermined by god, what are my choices? I may choose to believe I am making a choice, but in reality it has been decided for me already.

Illusion!

Natro · Feb 25, 2006

CCGirl said:
If he is all knowing, then yes, he has determined what we will do.

But he already determined our "choices" long before we existed. How is that not controlling our "choices"? What do you think it means?

No god is not determined what will happened either, because him knowing does not mean he plans out what happens. Even he does not have freewill. If God knows everything that will happen then freewill is a Myth. It never existed.

Lilly of the Valley · Feb 25, 2006

Natro said:
No lilly you act not choose.(you may think you choose but you realy and truely are not choosing). You are acting out what he knows not choosing to do what you will do. You can not have someone knowing 100% of what will happen or it proves there is no freewill. In fact its the only way to prove there is no freewill.

So when faced w/ a decision...you aren't choosing? For example: You have to choose pie or cake. You choose pie. Did you not just make a choice?

CCGirl · Feb 25, 2006

Natro said:
No god is not determined what will happened either, because him knowing does not mean he plans out what happens. Even he does not have freewill. If God knows everything that will happen then freewill is a Myth. It never existed.

This is also my position! I was arguing the OP only!

CCGirl · Feb 25, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
So when faced w/ a decision...you aren't choosing? For example: You have to choose pie or cake. You choose pie. Did you not just make a choice?

You may "believe" you made a choice, but since what you were going to do is already known by god, you are left with that Illusion!

quatona · Feb 25, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
The problem is, there is a choice, God simply knows the choice that you are going to make freely.

Freely of what?
God doesn´t know your actions "simply", he knows them before you make them. Which leaves no space for chosing. It does leave space for perceiving options and choices, though.

Him knowing it doesn't mean that you aren't having freedom in choosing.

You would have to explain the inconsistency of an action being foreknown (i.e the only thing that can happen) and freedom of chosing in order to make this statement something else than a mere affirmation of your belief, which has no logical basis, imo.

What exactly do you mean by controling? Controling choices?

You were the one who brought up the term. What did you mean? I was assuming you meant being the determining agens and responded accordingly.

There are two options: Serve and obey God or serve and obey your own will. Life and death, you choose one. It's that simple.

That´s the preaching part, no?
I am - at least in this discussion - merely interested in the logical implications of actions being perfectly foreknown. This question has nothing to do with Gods for me.

Lilly of the Valley · Feb 25, 2006

quatona said:
Freely of what?
God doesn´t know your actions "simply", he knows them before you make them. Which leaves no space for chosing. It does leave space for perceiving options and choices, though.

You would have to explain the inconsistency of an action being foreknown (i.e the only thing that can happen) and freedom of chosing in order to make this statement something else than a mere affirmation of your belief, which has no logical basis, imo.

You were the one who brought up the term. What did you mean? I was assuming you meant being the determining agens and responded accordingly.

That´s the preaching part, no?
I am - at least in this discussion - merely interested in the logical implications of actions being perfectly foreknown. This question has nothing to do with Gods for me.

You choose freely of having to choose a specific thing. For example: You have a choice of pie or cake. You don't have to choose either the pie or cake. It's up to you which. Now, w/ God, He knows which you will choose (that's been established), but you are still choosing it out of what you want...are you not? Thus, His knowing isn't making you chose which, He merely knows which one you will.

quatona · Feb 25, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
You choose freely of having to choose a specific thing.

In the discussion whether I h ave a choice or not , the wordings "you choose freely" and "having to choose" are begging the question.

For example: You have a choice of pie or cake.

Again you are begging the question. I don´t have a choice in the scenario of my action being foreknown.

You don't have to choose either the pie or cake. It's up to you which. Now, w/ God, He knows which you will choose (that's been established), but you are still choosing it out of what you want...are you not? Thus, His knowing isn't making you chose which, He merely knows which one you will.

You are simply begging the question by calling my action a choice.
Given your claim that it is foreknown, it is not a choice, although I perceive two options (cake or pie). I also perceive plenty of options from which the wind can "choose to" blow, yet I don´t assume the wind to "choose" its direction.
And, again, I am not saying that your God makes me take the pie, but that it is determined what I will take (under the premise that it is foreknown).
If my action is perfectly known ahead of time, choice on my part is impossible. I cannot choose that which is perfectly known not to be my action.

BigCedar · Feb 25, 2006

Hello,

So if God has determined you will choose pie, where does the possibility of choosing cake come in?
It would only seem to you that a choice was made.
This does not equal free will.

Lilly of the Valley · Feb 25, 2006

There are big errors in this. Because lets go on the assumption that there is a God. Okay, well, He said that He wills all man to be saved. Thus, If Him knowing beforehand our actions determined it and we had no choices then He's be basically wanting and willing the people that go to hell to go there, when He clearly said He wants all men to be saved. So it just doesn't work.

quatona · Feb 25, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
So when faced w/ a decision...you aren't choosing? For example: You have to choose pie or cake. You choose pie. Did you not just make a choice?

No, I just took the pie. Whether it was my choice or not is the very point of this discussion.

So, when a leaf is faced w/a decision...it isn´t choosing? For example: The leaf has the choice to remain on the tree or to drop to the ground. It chooses to drop to the ground. Did it not just make a choice?

Omniscience causal

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