Omnipotence vs Free Will

[Jesi]

Ok, I have another question that completely gives me a headache whenever I think about it.

If God is omnipotent, how do we have free will? All-knowing means he knows everything, including what we will choose in every instance of our lives. Nothing surprises him, nothing happens that he has not allowed to happen.

When someone dies in a car wreck, people say "Well it was God's will". When someone kills themself, is that not also God's will?

Is God's will only the accidents that we can't explain any other way?

Or do all things, good and bad, flow equally from his will?

If we have free will, and thus God does not know what we will choose at any given moment, how can he be omnipotent? How can he know the future? How can we trust him?

Omnipotence and free will simply cannot exist together, in my mind.

Can anyone explain how that works?

 

[seajoy]

God knows everything...even the dumb stuff we decide to do for ourselves.

He could have created puppet humans, I suppose...but in His Almighty wisdom, He gave us a free will.

 

[Jesi]

God knows everything...even the dumb stuff we decide to do for ourselves.

He could have created puppet humans, I suppose...but in His Almighty wisdom, He gave us a free will.

you didn't answer my question at all.

If he knows what we are going to do, then how can you call it free will? We chose it, yes, but he knew ahead of time, he orchestrated it.

 

[seajoy]

you didn't answer my question at all.

If he knows what we are going to do, then how can you call it free will? We chose it, yes, but he knew ahead of time, he orchestrated it.

You mean...I didn't answer it the way you wanted me to.

 

[Jesi]

You mean...I didn't answer it the way you wanted me to.

I'm not trying to coerce you, I am trying to understand.

How can omnipotene and free will coincide?

 

[seajoy]

I'm not trying to coerce you, I am trying to understand.

How can omnipotene and free will coincide?

He allows us to do the things we do. Yes, He could change things if He wanted to, but in His infinite wisdom, He allows things as He sees fit.

I know many things God allows make no sense to me, but it's not my place to decide how things should go. That's where faith comes in.

 

[looksgood]

I'm not trying to coerce you, I am trying to understand.

How can omnipotene and free will coincide?

Your confusing omnipotent for forcing ones will. God gave us the choices and we make the choise. He already knows yes...but that does not mean he wants us to make the choises we do. Yet He will not stop us from disobeaing His will.

Gods will has never been for us to die. Yet we made the choice.

 

[Jesi]

Your confusing omnipotent for forcing ones will. God gave us the choices and we make the choise. He already knows yes...but that does not mean he wants us to make the choises we do. Yet He will not stop us from disobeaing His will.

Gods will has never been for us to die. Yet we made the choice.

If God knows what we are going to choose before we choose it, and everything happens according to God's divine plan, then that means we are simply pawns.

We aren't really making choices, we just have the illusion of choice. God has already laid out the choices, he already knows what we will choose, and he has laid out the consequences.

I am not confusing omnipotence with forcing wills. If it's in his plan, if he wrote the choices and the results, then they are HIS choices, not ours.

I am interpreting this wrong?

 

[looksgood]

If God knows what we are going to choose before we choose it, and everything happens according to God's divine plan, then that means we are simply pawns.

We aren't really making choices, we just have the illusion of choice. God has already laid out the choices, he already knows what we will choose, and he has laid out the consequences.

I am not confusing omnipotence with forcing wills. If it's in his plan, if he wrote the choices and the results, then they are HIS choices, not ours.

I am interpreting this wrong?

God knew the end from the begining yes. God layed out the choices yes. God layed out the consequenses yes.

God planed for our choices. Not planed our choice but planed FOR our choice since He already knew what it would be.

 

[FrAnthony]

Ok, I have another question that completely gives me a headache whenever I think about it.

If God is omnipotent, how do we have free will? All-knowing means he knows everything, including what we will choose in every instance of our lives. Nothing surprises him, nothing happens that he has not allowed to happen.

When someone dies in a car wreck, people say "Well it was God's will". When someone kills themself, is that not also God's will?

Is God's will only the accidents that we can't explain any other way?

Or do all things, good and bad, flow equally from his will?

If we have free will, and thus God does not know what we will choose at any given moment, how can he be omnipotent? How can he know the future? How can we trust him?

Omnipotence and free will simply cannot exist together, in my mind.

Can anyone explain how that works?

I get a kick out of this too when people say something is "God's Will". You are talking about a few different things, that's don't necessarily touch all the time.

God's Will - This is the same as saying "the way God intends". It is related to figuring out how we are suppose to use the gifts (nature, life, freedom, etc.) of God. We can use them like we are told to use them, or we can choose not to do that...there are consequences either way as with all things.

Omnipotent - This just means that God is outside of time and space as we know it (a "mystery"). He is in all places at all times all the time, and this has nothing to do with Free Will.

Free Will - Our ability to make choices. Just because God knows what we will do, does not mean that He forces us to to do it. Rather, in true Love, allows us to do live freely even if it goes against "God's Will".

When something tragic happens, we often hear people grieving and/or confused say "it was God's Will". This means little more than "I don't know how to explain that". It's not really accurately used most of the time I've heard people say it.

 

[Calminian]

Omnipotent - This just means that God is outside of time and space as we know it (a "mystery"). He is in all places at all times all the time, and this has nothing to do with Free Will.

Not to argue, but I think you may be confusing this term with omnipresence. God is also atemporal (according to most theologians, anyway). Omnipotence simply means God is all powerful.

 

[Calminian]

How can omnipotene and free will coincide?

Omnipotence and freewill really don't have much to do with one another. The fact that God is all powerful, does not mean He is not free to chose where He uses this power. God can certainly chose to give agents freedom and most theologians agree He at least did so in the case of Adam and Lucifer. If God has freewill Himself, then He is free to give it to others.

Regarding omniscience, this is also not a problem for freewill (incompatibilistic freewill), but does require some deep thinking. The fact that God knows something will happen, does not mean it must happen, but merely that it will happen. If God is truly omniscient, then it is He that must know what will happen. If we chose otherwise, then God must know that instead. The necessities are on God's knowledge, not on the actions of the free agent. It's God that must know what will happen, not the agent that must do what God knows. It's a bit of a mind twister, but it can be grasped. Keep thinking. Good questions.

If this is an issue you're really interested in, I highly recommed W. L. Craig's book, The Only Wise God.

 

[Calminian]

"If God is truly omniscient, then it is He that must know what will happen. If we chose otherwise, then God must know that instead."

I'm still confused. If God already knows what will happen, doesn't that mean the action is guaranteed to happen? Let's say God knows I will pick door number 2 out of 3. Freewill should let me choose 1, 2, or 3. But then God would be wrong and not omniscient. I'm then forced to pick door 2 so God is correct, and therefore did not truly have a choice in the matter.

Let's just take a step back and move on to more precise terms. What we are actually talking about here is exhaustive definite foreknowledge (EDF) which is probably not an exact synonym for omniscience. That aside, if God truly has EDF (which I believe He does), then He must necessarily know what a free agent will chose. This in no way means His knowledge caused the choice, i.e., that the agent must have done, what God knew. The necessity is on God's EDF, not on the agent's choice.

Per your example, if you chose to pick door 2, then God must have known you would have. Had you chosen otherwise, God by necessity would have known that instead. The constraints are on His knowledge, not the agents actions.

A good way to understand this is by our knowledge of the past. Let's say I was watching a repeat telecast of Deal or No Deal. Because it is a repeat, I know definitely that the man will turn down $200,00 (at least on the telecast) and eventually end up with $5. Does my knowledge of this mean he had no choice in the matter? Does the fact that I knew it mean he must have chosen badly? Or was it my knowledge that must have been in accordance with what actually would happen on the repeat episode? I think it is obvious the latter is true. Hope that helps.

 

[Rafael]

How does God knowing something force Him to act upon it? What you are unwittingly doing is being God yourselves by telling God that He must act upon His foreknowledge when it is His will to let man choose between good and evil.
Because He has the power over life and death, He can change all things to His will in the end, even when we or others do evil and deicide to disobey Him. Until that time, He waits and sees after those who love Him,making all things work together for them
You would limit God's power over His own will when you say that because He has the ability to know the future, that He has to even use that power. What if He only looks at what He wants to just like you or I, deciding for Himself? Is that so unusual?

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2Peter 3:9 ¶ The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

 

[Calminian]

" Per your example, if you chose to pick door 2, then God must have known you would have. Had you chosen otherwise, God by necessity He would have known that instead. The constraints are on His knowledge, not the agents actions."

Wouldn't that just mean God's knowledge changed the instant I made the choice? That seems like it would be current knowledge instead of foreknowledge. Only future omniscience causes the paradox. I don't think you knowing a past even makes the paradox either, for the same reasons.

This may be closer than you think, but true EDF means that God knew our decision from eternity past (i.e. logically prior to time). Thus while God's knowledge is temporally prior to our actions, our actions are logically prior to God's knowledge.

I'm not quite following the point where you don't reveal the foreknowledge. Let's say God knows without a doubt tomorrow at 4pm you will eat a sandwich, but doesn't tell you. You are still bound to eating that regardless because otherwise God would be wrong. Just because the foreknowledge isn't revealed, freewill does not exist. It would mearly be the illusion of freewill.

This is still not quite right. There certainly is a lack of freedom, but not on the agent's part. In the case of God's EDF of libertarian decisions, it is God that is not free to know otherwise. If God truly has EDF and humans truly have libertarian freedom in some areas, then God is the one who is actually not free to know anything other than what they will choose.

A good question might be, is God free to know of any future libertarian decision He chooses?? Or is He constrained to only know what will actually be chosen?? If both EDF and libertarian free will (LFW) exist, then God's knowledge of those choices is not free? God was not free to choose what He knew about the future in regard to my eating the sandwich. He was constrained to only know what I would choose—to eat it. He could not have chosen to know otherwise. If he truly gave the choice to me, He had no choice in what He knew. Make sense?

 

[Rafael]

" If you only saw certain things, you'd be more of a mystic with a crystal ball than an omnicient being.

Only by your definition. I doubt you or any man understands the many unseen dimensions of this universe enough to define much of anything at this point when it comes to such power. We still theorize about time and eternity and what it may or may not be relative to, but at least, at this point, admit it probably does exist as possible and having application to God's omniscience. Perhaps we will, if we submit ourselves to teaching, learn more of what that word describing God's omniscience means, if we let Him in our minds, without restriction of narrowing out what He can or cannot do with His own power. I don't see any knowledge of man placing much definition to God's powers in creation other than demonstrating more their own power of imagination that would narrow God's will to Him only doing what we (man) think He ought to be able to do.
Yes, it is hard for us to wrap our minds around time, eternity, and God's power over them that would bring about omniscience.

 

[Calminian]

"Make sense?"

No, i'm sorry, but I'm still not understanding this, and not because I'm not trying. I'll try to lay out as simply as i can my best understanding of the concept

1) If God knows what I will do tomorrow, that action is unavoidable, or God becomes wrong
2) Omniscience claims infallibility
3) If that action is unavoidable, I cannot choose to do something else
4) If I cannot choose to do something else, I have no freewill.

That's okay. It's not an easy subject to grasp and there are many christians that would side with you on this one, from Augustine to the Reformers to Jonathan Edwards to countless modern theologians. But just so you know, I'm rejecting premise 1.

It is God's knowledge that is constrained (unavoidable) not the free agents decision. It is God that is not free to know otherwise in the case of future knowledge of libertarian decisions.

 

[FrAnthony]

Not to argue, but I think you may be confusing this term with omnipresence. God is also atemporal (according to most theologians, anyway). Omnipotence simply means God is all powerful.

Good grief! That's what I get for trying to fly through my response...my eyes must have been crossed when I read "omnipotent" (vs. "omnipresent"). Thanks for catching that for me and noting the correction.

 

[calidog]

Ok, I have another question that completely gives me a headache whenever I think about it.

If God is omnipotent, how do we have free will? All-knowing means he knows everything, including what we will choose in every instance of our lives. Nothing surprises him, nothing happens that he has not allowed to happen.

When someone dies in a car wreck, people say "Well it was God's will". When someone kills themself, is that not also God's will?

Is God's will only the accidents that we can't explain any other way?

Or do all things, good and bad, flow equally from his will?

If we have free will, and thus God does not know what we will choose at any given moment, how can he be omnipotent? How can he know the future? How can we trust him?

Omnipotence and free will simply cannot exist together, in my mind.

Can anyone explain how that works?

Just that He is the creater/designer.

His will is that all should come to repentance, but all don't, but He already knew that.

 

[Calminian]

Good grief! That's what I get for trying to fly through my response...my eyes must have been crossed when I read "omnipotent" (vs. "omnipresent"). Thanks for catching that for me and noting the correction.

No problem. I usually interchange omnipotence and omniscience. Too many omnis.