Omnipotence vs Free Will

[Calminian]

Sir, I completely understand your difficulty. I think the primary reason for your feelings is that you are suffering from the feeling of insignificance that we all fall prey to from time to time. The reality is that we cannot affect the outcome in a way that is contrary to what God has ordained. This should, in truth, be a comfort to us, for by this we can know that God has established all that has and will come to pass and sovereignty governs history such that He will meet all our needs, even those of which we are unaware. Rest assured that our prayers are anything but insignificant because God Himself has decreed that they are one of the means by which He manifests some of the most dramatic changes in history.

Our prayers for change should be, primarily, prayers for change in ourselves that lead us to live in submission to God's will. That is certainly significant. We definitely should acknowledge our utter dependence upon God for all things, for we are dependent upon Him. We should ask Him for what we need because, ultimately, He is the One who can and will provide. In a practical sense, our focus in prayer should always be a heartfelt longing to submit to whatever He brings to pass. Like the OT giant of faith, Joseph, and our beloved Apostle Paul, our goal should be contentment in all things.

Just keep in mind there is nothing in the above post an arminian disagrees with. We believe all must pass through the will of God before it happens. We just believe God does so passively. The sovereignty of God is something I cherish and could not live without. God is in control of the future. Nothing will happen that He does not allow. But at the same time, He is not the author of sin. He allows it, but doesn't cause it. That's really the only difference I have with reformationist. Certainly he doesn't believe God to be the author of sin either, but strict determinism seems to logically lead to it. Therefore I personally have to reject that particular logical system.

But we can all agree on one thing. God is solely responsible for those who are saved, and men are solely to blame for their being lost. We simply disagree on which logical system supports that idea the best. For those that believe calvinism does, God bless 'em. For those that think arminianism or something close does, God bless them. We’re all brothers! No one is going to hell if their logic is a little off.

Here's a book recommendation.

Divine Foreknowledge: 4 Views

You have Helm espousing the calvinist position and W.L. Craig espousing molinism (my position). And there are two other positions if you're not satisfied with either of those. It's a great read.

You may disagree with me, but that's no problem. We all agree on the big picture.

 

[tapero]

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[Reformationist]

Just keep in mind there is nothing in the above post an arminian disagrees with.

Glad to hear that but, for the record, I did not respond to contrast the Arminian view.

We believe all must pass through the will of God before it happens. We just believe God does so passively. The sovereignty of God is something I cherish and could not live without. God is in control of the future. Nothing will happen that He does not allow. But at the same time, He is not the author of sin. He allows it, but doesn't cause it. That's really the only difference I have with reformationist. Certainly he doesn't believe God to be the author of sin either, but strict determinism seems to logically lead to it. Therefore I personally have to reject that particular logical system.

I agree that we should reject any system that paints God as the author of sin and my view most certainly does not do so. I am well aware that God permits man to sin, though not with impugnity. I am also well aware that God passively governs even the sinful actions of men, having the authority and power to stop those actions that, for His purposes, He chooses to not stop.

I fail to see where you think what you've said is different than my position.

But we can all agree on one thing. God is solely responsible for those who are saved, and men are solely to blame for their being lost.

Of course.

No one is going to hell if their logic is a little off.

We are saved by grace, not proper logic. I agree.

Thanks for the book recommendation.

God bless

 

[Calminian]

I fail to see where you think what you've said is different than my position.

That's kind of my point. Ultimately arminians and calvinists claim the same position. They just disagree on the logic. Calvinists believe arminianism logically leads to shared credit for salvation, while arminians believe calvinism logically leads to shared blame for damnation. They will and should debate this vigorously. But ultimately they join hands on basic belief.

 

[Reformationist]

That's kind of my point. Ultimately arminians and calvinists claim the same position. They just disagree on the logic. Calvinists believe arminianism logically leads to shared credit for salvation, while arminians believe calvinism logically leads to shared blame for damnation. They will and should debate this vigorously. But ultimately they join hands on basic belief.

Okay. Great. I'm all for a common desire to properly understand God's Word because only those who properly understand God's Word will properly worship Him. That's not to say that no one else will worship Him. That's just an acknowledgement that if we don't recognize God's providential role in the government of history, we won't understand the inestimable value in His rule.

God bless

 

[Calminian]

Okay. Great. I'm all for a common desire to properly understand God's Word because only those who properly understand God's Word will properly worship Him. That's not to say that no one else will worship Him.

I think it goes without saying that whoever's wrong in this debate will be missing out on something. The significance of this will probably vary from individual to individual.

That's just an acknowledgement that if we don't recognize God's providential role in the government of history, we won't understand the inestimable value in His rule.

I also agree with this. Both systems acknowledge a sovereign God who knows the beginning from the end. Both realize all things work together for the good of those who love Him. God is in complete control and has set His parameters on just how far evil can go. Both agree He guides history without coercion. As you mentioned both acknowledge that God is often sovereignly permissive in what He ordains. I find great comfort in all of this. I know many other arminians do also.

 

[The Virginian]

you didn't answer my question at all.

If he knows what we are going to do, then how can you call it free will? We chose it, yes, but he knew ahead of time, he orchestrated it.

Knowledge of something is quite another thing than actively acting upon a choice. If He orchestrates it, then He also orchestrates rape, murder, suicide, drug addiction, theft, lies, slander, gluttony, homosexuality, despair, hopelessness, child pornography, anger, bitterness, jealousy,. etc., etc., etc... This also means that God is a liar, and unjust for the above things are what He says He hates, and will punish us for involvement in such activities.
Consider also: If in point of fact we actually do not have "free will", then why bother stepping into time in the Incarnation for the purpose of the redemption of man, and the destruction of the works of Satan. Something to consider as we consciously come to the time of preparation for Easter!

 

[ignight]

Ok well I might get slamed for saying this but Im going to.
I think God Choses not to know the Futer so we will have free will. That doesnt mean he has no clue what we are going to do, I think he knows us well enough to have an idea....... But think about it... We cant love God without freewill but if He know it all ahead of time where is our choise... and opps he knew ahead of time who was going to hell. this argument could go ethier way. Anyone who doesnt agree with me please dont bash me aganst a wall. If I am wrong God knew I was going to say this and it is all a part of his plan.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Jesi, God is all-knowing, He knows our past, He knows our present, and He knows our future. When God looks at us, He sees all about us: He is God. When He looks at us He can see what we have chosen, and what we will choose. God gave us His Commandments for our own GOOD, His Holy Law will reward all our good deeds, and it will repay our bad deeds. We will follow our own inclinations, and we will reap the consequences. God has told us about His Laws, and it is up to us, to follow them, ignore them, or even go against them. I say this humbly and kindly, Jesi, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Reformationist]

Knowledge of something is quite another thing than actively acting upon a choice. If He orchestrates it, then He also orchestrates rape, murder, suicide, drug addiction, theft, lies, slander, gluttony, homosexuality, despair, hopelessness, child pornography, anger, bitterness, jealousy,. etc., etc., etc... This also means that God is a liar, and unjust for the above things are what He says He hates, and will punish us for involvement in such activities.

Did God orchestrate every single event that brought the OT saint Joseph to the height of power in Egypt or did He simply "have knowledge of it?"

Consider also: If in point of fact we actually do not have "free will", then why bother stepping into time in the Incarnation for the purpose of the redemption of man, and the destruction of the works of Satan. Something to consider as we consciously come to the time of preparation for Easter!

What does your free will, or lackthereof, have to do with God's purpose and plan to redeem His elect through a propitiatory sacrifice? Is it that you think the obedience of Christ only has significance if it revolves around your silly free will?

Where you err is in arguing from the premise that "free will" refers to man's ability to make choices. The ability to make choices is "volition," and we all recognize that such an ability must be a constituent element of our creation. The question we face on that issue isn't, "does man make choices" but, rather, "why does man make the choices he does?"

God bless

 

[smile]

Please remember this is not a place of debate. If you wish to, take it elsewhere.

 

[MethodMan]

Any discussion of Open Theism will now cease!

 

[threekids]

I don't think we can confuse God's will with natural consequences of sin. God doesn't will any of His children harm. But, when the consequences of our choices, or the consequences of living on this planet full of sin, take place, God can then turn the bad results into blessings for those open to recieve them. Maybe it took the consequences to either get our attention or to put in place other courses of events.
If God's will was done sin never would have occured and we wouldn't be asking these questions.