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Oldest rock in the world 2 days after creation (embedded age)

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Warden_of_the_Storm

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In God's case, cause-and-effect might help:

1. the Bible
2. time divided into BC & AD
3. organizations such as the Red Cross and Salvation Army
4. hospitals built by Christian organizations
5. Christian artwork, edifices, statuary, and literature
6. IN GOD WE TRUST on our coins
7. UNDER GOD in our pledge of allegiance
8. the Ten Commandments and other literature displayed in public
9. Christmas & Easter
10. symbols on bumper stickers and flags
11. public debates in the name of Christianity
12. crosses and billboards erected to testify of Jesus Christ
13. two major nations founded on His existence
14. martyrs
15. Christians & Jews

Can Jews be included in that list, since all of those other elements are examples of Christianity existing, and Judaism came BEFORE Christianity?
 
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AV1611VET

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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Absolutely!

If you say so.

But as others stated, excluding number 15 (which is a brand new addition), all those are cause and effect for Christianity, not God proper.

Really, as a creationist, the cause and effect for God would really just be everything existing...
 
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truthpls

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Then you have reading skills problems, Nothing in that passage is inconsistent with the theory of evolution.
That is not reading skills. No more than we need an electron microscope to see the nose on your face.



Psalms 8:4
Then I ask, "Why do you care about us humans? Why are you concerned for us weaklings?"

Psalms 8:5
You made us a little lower than you yourself, and you have crowned us with glory and honor.

Psalms 8:6
You let us rule everything your hands have made. And you put all of it under our power

Psalms 8:7
the sheep and the cattle, and every wild animal,

Psalms 8:8
the birds in the sky, the fish in the sea, and all ocean creatures.

When He made man He gave them dominion over the list of creatures above! Evolution says we descended from the creatures. Do not pretend it is some reading error.


The message in the bible is this

Psalms 95:6 -- Oh come, let us worship and bow down; Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker

Fish crawling up from the sea are not our maker. Monkeys in a tree are not our maker. An imagined first lifeform is not our maker. I would guess that even an honest unbeliever would admit that

Why not? The two propositions are not inconsistant

Seriously, did you ever have reading difficulties as a child? Those are lines of POETRY you are quoting.

Does this sound like evolution to you?

Psalms 104:30 -- You send forth Your Spirit, they are created..

Does this sound like it is 'really' talking about stellar evolution to you?

Psalms 136:7 -- To Him who made great lights, For His mercy endures forever;


Psalms 136:8 -- The sun to rule by day, For His mercy endures forever;

Psalms 136:9 -- The moon and stars to rule by night, For His mercy endures forever.
 
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truthpls

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You don't understand the Bible well enough to know whether it's being "dissed" or not.
Psalms 148:5 -- Let them praise the name of the LORD, For He commanded and they were created.

If someone tells us He did not command and boom they were created they would be dissing or contradicting God. The children who gathered around Jesus knew that.
All you seem to be able to do is read it with the comprehension of a fourth grader reading a comic book. It is the inspired word of God after all, you really should try to read it more perceptively.
Here is God speaking Personally

Isaiah 29:16 -- Surely you have things turned around! Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay; For shall the thing made say of him who made it, "He did not make me"? Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?

Apparently the answer to the latter is yes. Some people will say that we have no understanding if we honor God as our Maker.
 
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BCP1928

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That is not reading skills. No more than we need an electron microscope to see the nose on your face.



Psalms 8:4
Then I ask, "Why do you care about us humans? Why are you concerned for us weaklings?"

Psalms 8:5
You made us a little lower than you yourself, and you have crowned us with glory and honor.

Psalms 8:6
You let us rule everything your hands have made. And you put all of it under our power

Psalms 8:7
the sheep and the cattle, and every wild animal,

Psalms 8:8
the birds in the sky, the fish in the sea, and all ocean creatures.

When He made man He gave them dominion over the list of creatures above! Evolution says we descended from the creatures. Do not pretend it is some reading error.


The message in the bible is this

Psalms 95:6 -- Oh come, let us worship and bow down; Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker

Fish crawling up from the sea are not our maker. Monkeys in a tree are not our maker. An imagined first lifeform is not our maker. I would guess that even an honest unbeliever would admit that



Does this sound like evolution to you?

Psalms 104:30 -- You send forth Your Spirit, they are created..

Does this sound like it is 'really' talking about stellar evolution to you?

Psalms 136:7 -- To Him who made great lights, For His mercy endures forever;


Psalms 136:8 -- The sun to rule by day, For His mercy endures forever;

Psalms 136:9 -- The moon and stars to rule by night, For His mercy endures forever.
It's interesting that you pick the Psalms for your argument, which are poetry. Perhaps you favor them because you like poetry. What other poetry do you like? What other poems do you like to read as if they were modern historical narrative?
 
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truthpls

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I'd suggest that a persons inner experience of the Divine with in the physical is what gives us things of the spirit.
The bible suggests this


1 Corinthians 2:14
Now the natural man does not receive the things from the Spirit of God — to him they are nonsense! Moreover, he is unable to grasp them, because they are evaluated through the Spirit

Is it any wonder that men using just the natural cannot grasp creation?

Accepting beliefs that are religious in nature is very different critter. They may or may not point towards the spiritual, but about that's it.
Yes the flesh is different from the spirit. Yes the natural is different from the spiritual. We should not accept the beliefs based solely on the natural over the beliefs God told us to accept.
 
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truthpls

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It's interesting that you pick the Psalms for your argument, which are poetry. Perhaps you favor them because you like poetry.
God speaking though some men is like poetry. That does not mean it is a lie.
 
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BCP1928

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Psalms 148:5 -- Let them praise the name of the LORD, For He commanded and they were created.

If someone tells us He did not command and boom they were created they would be dissing or contradicting God. The children who gathered around Jesus knew that.
Science does not deny that God commanded.
Here is God speaking Personally

Isaiah 29:16 -- Surely you have things turned around! Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay; For shall the thing made say of him who made it, "He did not make me"? Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?
Shall the thing made not say, "here is how my maker formed me."
Apparently the answer to the latter is yes. Some people will say that we have no understanding if we honor God as our Maker.
No, some people will say that person who honors a God who lives in a magical book, a God who can't do anything that isn't literally written there, some will say that person who honors that God lacks understanding.
 
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BCP1928

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God speaking though some men is like poetry. That does not mean it is a lie.
It becomes a lie for those, like you, who insist that it must be taken as literal narrative, You are the one calling the Bible a lie. You are the one calling the Gospel of Christ a lie. You are the one calling the faith of millions of Christians a lie. Why are you doing it? I can only think of evil reasons.
 
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truthpls

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Science does not deny that God commanded.
It denies He spoke and it was made
Shall the thing made not say, "here is how my maker formed me."
Yes, when God gave the story to us Himself and confirmed it in a multitude or ways in the rest of Scripture. At the very least one should not say, 'Hath God said He created you and the universe? What really happened is that you descended from worms and monkeys and that the sun came from an explosion in space etc' You do know who that sounds like?
No, some people will say that person who honors a God who lives in a magical book,
Others would say that calling His word to man that Jesus confirmed and honoured and fulfilled some 'magic fable' or 'magical little book' was the opposite of honouring Him
a God who can't do anything that isn't literally written there,
No one suggested He could not do anything at all. Be honest. One thing He does not do i lie, like the spirit behind naturalonlydunnit so called science.
some will say that person who honors that God lacks understanding.
We already saw such accusations in this thread.
 
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truthpls

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It becomes a lie for those, like you, who insist that it must be taken as literal narrative
Isaiah 45:12 -- I have made the earth, And created man on it. I; My hands; stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded.

Are you going to tell the one who said this it is not a literal narrative (true)?

What you seem to be saying is that the bible can take a hike if it disagrees with the natural only dunnit science'?
, You are the one calling the Bible a lie.
Believing the very words of God Himself talking is not a lie. You hold up the natural only derived concepts of where it all came from as the ultimate truth and call the bible a lie for what it says that you cast away as false
You are the one calling the Gospel of Christ a lie.
I'll let that whopper slide for now. I guess we'll take it that you are angry and just mouthing off.
You are the one calling the faith of millions of Christians a lie. Why are you doing it? I can only think of evil reasons.
Disrespecting and disbelieving God and Scripture should not be the 'faith' of millions of Christians.

Here is God Himself speaking about things like naturalonlydunnit

Jeremiah 10:11 -- Thus you shall say to them: "The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens."
 
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dlamberth

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The bible suggests this


1 Corinthians 2:14
Now the natural man does not receive the things from the Spirit of God — to him they are nonsense! Moreover, he is unable to grasp them, because they are evaluated through the Spirit

Is it any wonder that men using just the natural cannot grasp creation?
What your wanting to be accepted are your religious beliefs. The thing is, science has opened a wide window into Creation as God Created it which just do no line up with your religious beliefs.
We should not accept the beliefs based solely on the natural over the beliefs God told us to accept.
Or so you believe. But God's Creation, as Created by God is right there for all to see. It's not at all hidden.
 
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BCP1928

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Isaiah 45:12 -- I have made the earth, And created man on it. I; My hands; stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded.

Are you going to tell the one who said this it is not a literal narrative (true)?
Of course it's not. I don''t believe He meant it as a literal narrative. It is obviously figurative language; science doesn't even come into it.
If you think I'm wrong you can prove it. From the original Hebrew, of course, with contemporaneous literary examples.

Believing the very words of God Himself talking is not a lie. You hold up the natural only derived concepts of where it all came from as the ultimate truth and call the bible a lie for what it says that you cast away as false
Now you're lying about me. Nothing to do with science, as far as I am concerned. I don't care that much about science, But I sincerely believe, as I believe Christ is my Savior, that your literal inerrancy is a degenerate corruption of God's inspired word, regardless of whether it disagrees with science or not.
I'll let that whopper slide for now. I guess we'll take it that you are angry and just mouthing off.
No, you should face up to it honestly.
Disrespecting and disbelieving God and Scripture should not be the 'faith' of millions of Christians.
Disbelieving you might be the best thing thing for their faith.
Here is God Himself speaking about things like naturalonlydunnit

Jeremiah 10:11 -- Thus you shall say to them: "The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens."
Naruralonlydunnit is a figment of your imagination.
 
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truthpls

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What your wanting to be accepted are your religious beliefs.
I posted some verses with God Himself talking first person. I do not see that as 'my religious beliefs'
The thing is, science has opened a wide window into Creation as God Created it which just do no line up with your religious beliefs.
It shut the window on God actually and sits in the dark with the natural only fiddling with it.
Or so you believe. But God's Creation, as Created by God is right there for all to see. It's not at all hidden.
Nor is it a mystery or something other than what a child sees, or a bird!

Here is God from heaven talking personally again.

Jeremiah 27:5
With my great strength and powerful arm I made the earth and all its people and every animal.

Evolution never made them, the natural processes did not make them. He did.
 
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dlamberth

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I posted some verses with God Himself talking first person. I do not see that as 'my religious beliefs'

It shut the window on God actually and sits in the dark with the natural only fiddling with it.

Nor is it a mystery or something other than what a child sees, or a bird!

Here is God from heaven talking personally again.

Jeremiah 27:5
With my great strength and powerful arm I made the earth and all its people and every animal.

Evolution never made them, the natural processes did not make them. He did.
These are all your religious "beliefs. But the spiritual is something one personally experiences. For instance a person can personally experience the Divine with in God's Creation. The thing is, to personally experience God's Hand in Creation is way different than"believing" God said something. Or perhaps a person could experience the infinite Creating hand of God within the power of Life that permeates all of existence. That's when it gets spiritual.
 
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AV1611VET

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If you say so.

But as others stated, excluding number 15 (which is a brand new addition), all those are cause and effect for Christianity, not God proper.

Really, as a creationist, the cause and effect for God would really just be everything existing...

But here's the sixty-four dollar question:

Which came first? God, or the aforementioned effects?
 
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AV1611VET

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Or so you believe. But God's Creation, as Created by God is right there for all to see. It's not at all hidden.

Is that why science makes mistakes right and left?

If God's creation is "not at all hidden," then why does science change with the weather?
 
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dlamberth

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Is that why science makes mistakes right and left?

If God's creation is "not at all hidden," then why does science change with the weather?
Contrary to being hidden, whether we like it or not the weather effects every single bit of this Creation. It's not at all hidden. Sometimes science even finds the effects of the weather in an area that happened many million of years ago.
 
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