Old Testament Struggles

[GreenMunchkin]

Can I ask if anyone else struggles to reconcile the "God of the OT" with God? I struggle very badly, so I just stay away from it, by and large. But recently have been thinking about this more, and Jesus Himself quoted the Bible extensively, so it's not something we can just discard. It's not only relevant to Judaism, and I don't think a Christian can just avoid it because it's uncomfortable. I sort of see it as the roots, with the NT being the actual tree. But we can't fully appreciate the tree - more than that, the tree won't flourish - without its roots.

But so without asking about specific parts, am wondering whether anyone else has/has had these same thoughts?

Thank you so much for any answers

 

[blueguy]

I know what you mean about trials with the Old Testament, I had struggle too. Good part is Jesus came and freed us from the old law.
I also view the OT as a history book.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Something we have to accept. Their conditions were different than ours, and if you read the book of Revelation, well..

 

[Nadiine]

Can I ask if anyone else struggles to reconcile the "God of the OT" with God? I struggle very badly, so I just stay away from it, by and large. But recently have been thinking about this more, and Jesus Himself quoted the Bible extensively, so it's not something we can just discard. It's not only relevant to Judaism, and I don't think a Christian can just avoid it because it's uncomfortable. I sort of see it as the roots, with the NT being the actual tree. But we can't fully appreciate the tree - more than that, the tree won't flourish - without its roots.

But so without asking about specific parts, am wondering whether anyone else has/has had these same thoughts?

Thank you so much for any answers

Well as I understand it, it's Jesus who gave the OT Law, and there are epiphanies of Christ in the OT.


Also, Christ came to fulfill that OT Law in order to bring grace. Christ upheld the Law and the Prophets fully as truth. (All Jesus was changing of the Law when He came as Messiah was the penalty of sin (condemnation). He was promoting the whole point of the entire Law which was love of God and one another. That was the purpose of that Law.
God doesn't change - He's the same yesterday as He is today. The only difference is that we're under a grace covenant.

The bigger problem we see today is people recreating a New Test. God that is opposite the OT God. Most people work to try to remove His attributes of justice, holiness and wrath - as if He doesn't get angry.

He's simply saving His anger/condemnation for the Tribulation period when He'll unleash His harsh judgment on the rebellious world at that specific time. And at the time of the final judgment when all evil will be punished and sent to the Lake of Fire.

I truly believe that God thinks and feels the same way He did back in the OT, but that since He brought us under the grace covenant, He is not acting on them until later.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Gotta try and see how it fits together, otherwise we'll become modern day marcionites.

 

[Nadiine]

Gotta try and see how it fits together, otherwise we'll become modern day marcionites.

hmmm, what's a marcionite Ishida?

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Marcion was a guy who thought the God of the OT and NT were different Gods. (This is 2nd-3rd Century I believe.) He essentially considered the OT useless and edited the gospels and letters of Paul to support his theology. (He threw out Luke too, I think.) So your problems aren't new. If you're interested, there's bound to be something on wikipedia. XD

 

[Carolyn H]

I like the Major and minor prophets...but Leviticus and Numbers are KILLERS!!!!!! Deuteronomy reminds me why I need JESUS!!! I enjoy topical studies using OT and NT side by side!

 

[MrJim]

I spend minimal time in the OT~it's a record of God working through the Old Covenant and much/most of it is obsolete beyond the historical aspect. How God operated through that time is beyond anything I can control or even understand (especially the genocide) so I focus upon the Savior and work from there.

 

[Rhamiel]

Hi GM, I never really had problems with the OT, I know Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law and we do not have to keep the 5,000 OT laws (or however many there were) like not mixing meat and milk, or not wearing two types of cloth mixed together.
At the same time the stories of the OT show timeless Truths about our God, I love the book of Job and the part in First Kings with Elijah. I know you don't have this in your Bible, but the book of Tobit is also really good.
God is just, so if you see something in the OT that bothers you then you know that there is something in your heart, a small flame of rebelion (awww i hope I do not sound to harsh) All of His works are good and just

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I'm sure there is something available to read about this, considering I cited the example of Marcion, I'm certain theologians haven't decided to dodge this issue 2000 years. (And of course pray about it. Raise your concerns with the Lord. He allows us to call him Father, right? We don't mean any disrespect, we're just curious as we know who he is and what he has done.)

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Hi GM, I never really had problems with the OT, I know Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law and we do not have to keep the 5,000 OT laws (or however many there were) like not mixing meat and milk, or not wearing two types of cloth mixed together.
At the same time the stories of the OT show timeless Truths about our God, I love the book of Job and the part in First Kings with Elijah. I know you don't have this in your Bible, but the book of Tobit is also really good.
God is just, so if you see something in the OT that bothers you then you know that there is something in your heart, a small flame of rebelion (awww i hope I do not sound to harsh) All of His works are good and just

Not harsh even a tiny bit

You're right about the rebellion, though, I think. But even that... resistant to it. But it's true - God is always just, and always right. So if we don't like something, it's not an indictment of Him, but of us. It's just, did He change His methods? Am not phrasing that right. But it's like, when we strayed too far the first time, there was the flood. But eventually, He gave us Christ, and He changed everything. So what happened? Why that change?

I'm sure there is something available to read about this, considering I cited the example of Marcion, I'm certain theologians haven't decided to dodge this issue 2000 years. (And of course pray about it. Raise your concerns with the Lord. He allows us to call him Father, right? We don't mean any disrespect, we're just curious as we know who he is and what he has done.)

You're right, Ish. We're allowed to ask Him that. Hmm. Haven't ever done that, really. S'good advice, thank you

 

[MrJim]

It's just, did He change His methods?

Yup~doesn't mean He changed~simply created a better covenant with some different rulez

 

[Nadiine]

Marcion was a guy who thought the God of the OT and NT were different Gods. (This is 2nd-3rd Century I believe.) He essentially considered the OT useless and edited the gospels and letters of Paul to support his theology. (He threw out Luke too, I think.) So your problems aren't new. If you're interested, there's bound to be something on wikipedia. XD

oh thanks for explaining that. Interesting.

I truly believe that in our world today we put man on a pedestal in many ways, as if God is messing up and we seem to have all the love & we could atually teach God a thing or 2 about what love and discipline is all about.

It's my belief that if God continued to judge man as He did in the OT, this world wouldn't continue getting so far out of hand (in rebellion)
This verse is interesting:

Isaiah 57:11
“ And of whom have you been afraid, or feared, That you have lied And not remembered Me, Nor taken it to your heart?
Is it not because I have held My peace from of old That you do not fear Me?

The OT instills a fear of God that we should all have - reverance for who He is & what He expects of us. The lack of God showing His judgment and wrath causes us to lose fear and humility. (imo).
Today we see more of the attitude (under grace) that God is like our best buddy that we slap on the back & high-5.

Plus it's full of all kinds of helpful teachings in warfare today - reading how the spirit world operates, principles in battle against our enemy, things that cause our downfall, importance of obedience to God and so many other things.

Lots of great stuff for us to learn there.
Anyways, thanks for that info.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Yup~doesn't mean He changed~simply created a better covenant with some different rulez

Hmm. See, that confuses me a little. And we're not *supposed* to understand it all, but why would He change His methods?

 

[Secundulus]

Last year I took two Old Testament seminary courses. The first was simply a survey of the OT and the latter a study of OT Theology.

My conclusion is that the message Jesus preached is perfectly consistent with the message given to Moses and entirely consistent with everything the prophets taught.

The covenant he offered was the same covenant offered to the Jews on Sinai.

It is fortunate for me that my studies led to this conclusion. Otherwise, I would have been led to doubt Christianity's claims.

Many people have trouble with the judgement part of the OT where God ordered the destruction of various tribes. Why do we have trouble with this? In the Gospels, Jesus preached Judgement. In Revelation, Jesus revealed judgement that exceeds even that of the flood.

Jesus is the God who offers unconditional love and mercy to the people of the covenant.

Jesus is the God who first offered this to the Jews through Moses on Sinai.

But, Jesus is also the God who declared himself Commander of the Army of God when he physically appeared to Joshua.

" When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us, or for our adversaries?" And he said, "No; but I am the commander of the army of the Lord. Now I have come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?" And the commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, "Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so." (Joshua 5:13-15, ESV)


I would encourage everyone to carefully read and study the OT. Once you realize the consistency between that and the NT your faith will be greatly strengthened.

 

[MrJim]

Hmm. See, that confuses me a little. And we're not *supposed* to understand it all, but why would He change His methods?

Gal 3:13 –Gal 3:14 NKJV
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),
that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Good News Indeed

 

[Nadiine]

Last year I took two Old Testament seminary courses. The first was simply a survey of the OT and the latter a study of OT Theology.

My conclusion is that the message Jesus preached is perfectly consistent with the message given to Moses and entirely consistent with everything the prophets taught.

The covenant he offered was the same covenant offered to the Jews on Sinai.

It is fortunate for me that my studies led to this conclusion. Otherwise, I would have been led to doubt Christianity's claims.

Many people have trouble with the judgement part of the OT where God ordered the destruction of various tribes. Why do we have trouble with this? In the Gospels, Jesus preached Judgement. In Revelation, Jesus revealed judgement that exceeds even that of the flood.

Jesus is the God who offers unconditional love and mercy to the people of the covenant.

Jesus is the God who first offered this to the Jews through Moses on Sinai.

But, Jesus is also the God who declared himself Commander of the Army of God when he physically appeared to Joshua.

" When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us, or for our adversaries?" And he said, "No; but I am the commander of the army of the Lord. Now I have come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?" And the commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, "Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so." (Joshua 5:13-15, ESV)


I would encourage everyone to carefully read and study the OT. Once you realize the consistency between that and the NT your faith will be greatly strengthened.

 

[Nadiine]

Sec, I have a Question for you,

do you believe that judgment & wrath is the same as the OT, just that Jesus brings it at a later time? (ie. Rev.)?

 

[Rhamiel]

GM

So if we don't like something, it's not an indictment of Him, but of us. It's just, did He change His methods?

I would say no, God hates sin, in the OT they had imperfect animal sacrifice so sin could never be 100% wiped out, now we have Jesus and His sacrifice and we can be made pure in the eyes of God.
Like in the OT (I forget where) some kids made fun of a prophet calling him "old bald head" or something like that, God sent some bears and the bears killed 200 children or something like that. At first I was like wow, that is not cool, but the wages of sin is death and so those children would have a death sentence on them forever, the fact that God did not wipe out all of mankind does not speak to how good mankind is but to how full of mercy our God is. Now with Jesus we do not have to be under a death sentence but can have new life in Him. God still hates sin, now He does not have to kill the person to get rid of it