Old Testament Struggles

[Nadiine]

GM
I would say no, God hates sin, in the OT they had imperfect animal sacrifice so sin could never be 100% wiped out, now we have Jesus and His sacrifice and we can be made pure in the eyes of God.
Like in the OT (I forget where) some kids made fun of a prophet calling him "old bald head" or something like that, God sent some bears and the bears killed 200 children or something like that. At first I was like wow, that is not cool, but the wages of sin is death and so those children would have a death sentence on them forever, the fact that God did not wipe out all of mankind does not speak to how good mankind is but to how full of mercy our God is. Now with Jesus we do not have to be under a death sentence but can have new life in Him. God still hates sin, now He does not have to kill the person to get rid of it

That's an interesting passage you bring up, some teachers I've heard preaching on that topic said that they weren't "children" (little kids)...
they were basically young teens and what we'd consider something of a gang.
This 'gang' of youths were harrassing him... it was possibly escalating into possible physical harm to him and God stepped in.

I don't know if anyone else has heard that taught before?

 

[Secundulus]

Sec, I have a Question for you,

do you believe that judgment & wrath is the same as the OT, just that Jesus brings it at a later time? (ie. Rev.)?

I believe that the message throughout the Bible is a consistent story.

I don't think that the full judgement and wrath has ever happened.

Israel was judged several times for disloyalty. God executed this judgement first with the Assyrians, then with the Babylonians, and then later with the Romans. But in each case, there was a faithful remnant to carry on. In the latter case, this remnant became known as Christians.

People think that Christians are something different than Israel, but I don't think so. The covenant was never solely about bloodlines. Look at the bloodline of Jesus, which I think was deliberate to make a point. He was descended from David, whose Grandmother was Ruth, a Moabite Priestess, and whose great-grandmother was Rahab, a Caananite prostitute. It has always been about faith. Those who have faith in the one God are included in the covenant; their bloodlines are irrelevant. Israel is the people of the covenant. Jews are the people of the bloodline. Israel and Jews are two different things.

In our case, Christians, we see the same thing that happened to the Jews before. Many Christians, like the Jews before, have become disloyal to God. For example, in the non-Christian forum on this very site there are people perfectly comfortable with being Christian witches. I have been called intolerant for telling then they are in error. At the same time, we have an Anglican Priest who on Fridays goes to the mosque to pray to Allah. Today's examples are legion across the entire Christian spectrum.

Is this any different than worshiping the Golden Calf or in erecting pillars to Ashteroth? I don't think so.

Judgement is coming and I think it has already been going on for a long while.

The Gospel has already been preached to the entire world. It is translated in writing in every human language. Yet people increasingly reject the Gospel in favor of their own individual preference for how they would like God to be. I think that all that is left is to wait on God's own timeline.

But lest any of us become too comfortable in our own righteousness. Jesus prayed, on the night before he died, that we all be one.

""I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me." (John 17:20-21, ESV)

Are we one? Are faithful Catholics, and Orthodox, and Protestants one? No, we are not. Maybe, in the end, some of the fault for the world's apostasy lies with us, for our own hardheartedness in thinking ourselves right and everybody else wrong. We cannot provide a united front, so we have instead become the laughingstock.

I think the time is short. May God have mercy on us.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Can I ask if anyone else struggles to reconcile the "God of the OT" with God? I struggle very badly, so I just stay away from it, by and large. But recently have been thinking about this more, and Jesus Himself quoted the Bible extensively, so it's not something we can just discard. It's not only relevant to Judaism, and I don't think a Christian can just avoid it because it's uncomfortable. I sort of see it as the roots, with the NT being the actual tree. But we can't fully appreciate the tree - more than that, the tree won't flourish - without its roots.

But so without asking about specific parts, am wondering whether anyone else has/has had these same thoughts?

Thank you so much for any answers

I believe we all do at times but its usually based on our own lack of complete knowlege of a situation/language constraint/misunderstanding/ poor interpretation or missing the entire true context.

Let me give a great example - something i struggled with myself some time ago - and a dear friend led me to this writing that put my concern to rest just from understanding a perspective I had not even considered:

Its long but worth it : http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gutripper.html

I hope this blesses you dear sister.

 

[-~Truth_N_Trust~-]

Wow, Secundulus, Great Post!

I love the old testament, i find it so rich, so deep. For me, it shows a complete picture of God and His relationship to His people. Like others have said, it forshadows Christ in many ways, as well as showing clearly attributes of God, both Loving and Holy...
I'm not saying there isn't any hard passages, but as an overview of the OT that's ^ how I see it...
Perhaps GreenMunchkin, you could be more specific about which passages you find difficult?

 

[Rhamiel]

Nadiine

That's an interesting passage you bring up, some teachers I've heard preaching on that topic said that they weren't "children" (little kids)...
they were basically young teens and what we'd consider something of a gang.
This 'gang' of youths were harrassing him... it was possibly escalating into possible physical harm to him and God stepped in.

I have heard something like that too, but if they were little kids or teenagers the bible does not say that they were threatening him, just calling him old bald head, I think people want it to look like a gang because in our minds "oh well those gangs, they are a real problem, i wish someone would stop them" so we feel a little better about a bear killing a bunch of kids in a gang, then we do about a bear who kills some kids makeing fun of an old man. They mocked a prophet of God, that is a sin and all sin leads to death, God killed people who touched the ark of the covenate right? so disrespect to things that are holy could lead to death. All sin carries a death sentance, so if God decided to kill a bunch of teens with a bear, He is right and just to do so, now we can have our sins forgiven by Christ, we are made new creations in Him, so we do not have to worry as much about God sending bears after us

 

[-~Truth_N_Trust~-]

I just wanted to say something quickly about this passage from 2 Kings 2:24...

Noticing the passage just before it, the people of the city begged Elisha to heal their city, their water was bad and their ground was barren. God using Elisha healed their city's water with salt at the source - healed forever more. Now, without getting too much into the possible theology in this summarised passage let me just say that water is an important symbollic theme in scripture, especially healed water, and so is salt...
Also, Elisha was a new prophet, Elijah had just been taken to heaven.

So these 'youths' were not just making fun of someone, they were mocking God's prophet, they were degrading and undermining his new office of prophet - after he had just miraculously healed forever the very life of their city!

Anyway, I don't have all the answers, just some quick thoughts on that passage in particular...

 

[Nadiine]

I just wanted to say something quickly about this passage from 2 Kings 2:24...

Noticing the passage just before it, the people of the city begged Elisha to heal their city, their water was bad and their ground was barren. God using Elisha healed their city's water with salt at the source - healed forever more. Now, without getting too much into the possible theology in this summarised passage let me just say that water is an important symbollic theme in scripture, especially healed water, and so is salt...
Also, Elisha was a new prophet, Elijah had just been taken to heaven.

So these 'youths' were not just making fun of someone, they were mocking God's prophet, they were degrading and undermining his new office of prophet - after he had just miraculously healed forever the very life of their city!

Anyway, I don't have all the answers, just some quick thoughts on that passage in particular...

Hey thanks for this background.

God has never taken kindly to people degrading or disrespecting authoratative office. Look at what happened to the people who grumbled against Moses position.
There's a verse on this too:
Exodus 22:28
“You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.
[
a. You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people: The most basic arena for holiness is always the tongue. God cares how we talk about Him and those He has put us into submission to.
]

One thing about the OT, yes it has harsh things in it - but I think we have to understand that our PC culture today is OVERLY soft, immoral and operates on emotion where it didn't used to be like this.
We've changed (ie. have been conditioned) so drastically in the opposite direction, that alot of reality is viewed as horrible when I don't think it is.

We dislike ANY hardship and ANY criticism/correction and are programmed to worldly ideals/perceptions about what love is... so when we see it, we tend to have an aversion towards it.
But all of the ancient world operated this way, it was pretty harsh and brutal overall.

The last thing I think should be pointed out goes towards your explanation above, most people who read the Bible don't know all the background that goes along with it - incl. Greek/Hebrew language & grammar, custom or laws of their day.
So when they read something that sounds harsh, they aren't getting the other side of it.

For instance, it sounds real terrible for God to tell the Israelites to go wipe out the Amalekites - so all we read is that God had them all slaughtered.
But it also says this:
1 Samuel 14:48
He acted valiantly and defeated the Amalekites, and delivered Israel from the hands of those who plundered them.

Judges 10:12
"Also when the Sidonians, the Amalekites and the Maonites oppressed you, you cried out to Me, and I delivered you from their hands.

What most people don't know is that the Amalekites were stalking the Israelites during the Exodus from Egypt and picking off the weak and old people who were lagging behind.
(this page excerpt explains part some of it)

In Deuteronomy 25:17-19, Moses illuminates Exodus' simple report that the Amalekites attacked Israel with the additional fact that they did not attack the army of Israel.
Rather, said the man of God, Amalek "smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God."
So, the whole truth is that while the account in Exodus is accurate in saying that the Amalekites attacked Israel, the Exodus information is incomplete.
For, exhibiting their two constant and outstanding characteristics, the Amalekites actually attacked only those who were too weak to keep pace in the desert with their stronger brothers. They attacked the stragglers, those in Israel who were too ill, too weak, or too young to protect themselves, perhaps even women and children. Until Joshua led the counter-attack, there must have been a terrible slaughter of innocent, feeble souls (Ex.17).
This was the famous battle which Israel won because Aaron and Hur helped Moses hold up his rod when his arms grew tired.

So if you don't hear of the evil that people have done, judgment can seem like overkill. People don't know (or take the time to know) the backgrounds or why God had taken people out.

The people God had destroyed were trying to wipe out Israel. I'd say God took preemptive measures to protect her in some cases in order to get Israel into the Promise land. God knows who needs to be removed and why, I trust all His actions becuz they're based on perfect knowledge.

 

[Cris413]

Hey thanks for this background.

God has never taken kindly to people degrading or disrespecting authoratative office. Look at what happened to the people who grumbled against Moses position.
There's a verse on this too:
Exodus 22:28
“You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.
[
a. You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people: The most basic arena for holiness is always the tongue. God cares how we talk about Him and those He has put us into submission to.
]

One thing about the OT, yes it has harsh things in it - but I think we have to understand that our PC culture today is OVERLY soft, immoral and operates on emotion where it didn't used to be like this.
We've changed (ie. have been conditioned) so drastically in the opposite direction, that alot of reality is viewed as horrible when I don't think it is.

We dislike ANY hardship and ANY criticism/correction and are programmed to worldly ideals/perceptions about what love is... so when we see it, we tend to have an aversion towards it.
But all of the ancient world operated this way, it was pretty harsh and brutal overall.

The last thing I think should be pointed out goes towards your explanation above, most people who read the Bible don't know all the background that goes along with it - incl. Greek/Hebrew language & grammar, custom or laws of their day.
So when they read something that sounds harsh, they aren't getting the other side of it.

For instance, it sounds real terrible for God to tell the Israelites to go wipe out the Amalekites - so all we read is that God had them all slaughtered.
But it also says this:
1 Samuel 14:48
He acted valiantly and defeated the Amalekites, and delivered Israel from the hands of those who plundered them.

Judges 10:12
"Also when the Sidonians, the Amalekites and the Maonites oppressed you, you cried out to Me, and I delivered you from their hands.

What most people don't know is that the Amalekites were stalking the Israelites during the Exodus from Egypt and picking off the weak and old people who were lagging behind.
(this page excerpt explains part some of it)


So if you don't hear of the evil that people have done, judgment can seem like overkill. People don't know (or take the time to know) the backgrounds or why God had taken people out.

The people God had destroyed were trying to wipe out Israel. I'd say God took preemptive measures to protect her in some cases in order to get Israel into the Promise land. God knows who needs to be removed and why,

I trust all His actions becuz they're based on perfect knowledge.

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.

 

[MrJim]

I would guess some of what GM speaks about are the accounts in Joshua where all the people of a city (Ai, Jericho ['cept Rhahab], etc), even women and children, were slayed. It doesn't demonstrate the love and mercy and compassion we normally attribute to God and what we read in the Gospels. That God ordered it is not disputed~rather it just demonstrates a mysterious side that, while we can sit back and "enjoy" God getting those evil people, are they anymore evil than we are? Were Jericho children more evil than my boys? Different time, different working, same God~thankful we live under a New Deal

 

[Cris413]

I would guess some of what GM speaks about are the accounts in Joshua where all the people of a city (Ai, Jericho ['cept Rhahab], etc), even women and children, were slayed. It doesn't demonstrate the love and mercy and compassion we normally attribute to God and what we read in the Gospels. That God ordered it is not disputed~rather it just demonstrates a mysterious side that, while we can sit back and "enjoy" God getting those evil people, are they anymore evil than we are? Were Jericho children more evil than my boys? Different time, different working, same God~thankful we live under a New Deal

I don't think there are many who "enjoy" the destruction of another.

I mean...we're not just talking about earthly destruction but spiritual destruction as well.

I feel the same way when I consider all the "nice" people that will endure (or not) the Great Tribulation. Worse still...all the "nice" people that will not enter the Kingdom. And some of those "nice" people who are not covered by the blood of the Lamb...I love dearly

Heartbreaking...but who am I to judge God? Why is one taken and one left?

If we think about it...it's not just OT accounts that weigh heavily on our hearts...but current events and NT teaching that should prompt us to boldly proclaim Christ Jesus whenever and to whomever we can.

I don't think it enjoyable at all, in the heart of any Christian, who understands (as much as we're capable) the depth of the consequences of sin and rebellion toward God...those who are also bent on the destruction of His children.

And I'm quite certain...this grieves God...in equal measure, at the very least, to the love He has for His creation.

...just my personal thoughts

 

[Nadiine]

I would guess some of what GM speaks about are the accounts in Joshua where all the people of a city (Ai, Jericho ['cept Rhahab], etc), even women and children, were slayed. It doesn't demonstrate the love and mercy and compassion we normally attribute to God and what we read in the Gospels. That God ordered it is not disputed~rather it just demonstrates a mysterious side that, while we can sit back and "enjoy" God getting those evil people, are they anymore evil than we are? Were Jericho children more evil than my boys? Different time, different working, same God~thankful we live under a New Deal

Well, I don't have any joy in God judging with His wrath.
But what is the bottom line of this? We think more highly of humanity than we should.
We aren't considering God's view of our true condition - and how evil it is to reject our Creator who DIED for us so we could live.
You're right, we're all deserving of His judgment - without His grace, we'd all be wiped out.
But this is what we deserve... that's hard for us to accept.

Evil is a cancer that spreads everywhere and takes over, I've heard some Pastors preach that it's basically a form of "culling" evil on the earth when God has acted to remove whole nations for their evil.

We tend to read about Jericho - but we didn't see the attrocities and evil's they committed against God or His people or on other human beings, or what they're future may have been had they been left.

(in general)- If we don't give God the benefit of trust in Him and adjust ourselves to HIS thoughts and ways as true and right, then we essentially judge God and decide we're more loving and righteous than He is.

That's a very dangerous position to put ourselves into and it's one that many Christians and nonChristians hold to often without realizing it.
When that continues to be fed, people start doubting and questioning more and eventually opposing their faith.

In those cases, I believe it's best to get some commentaries or books on ancient customs of Biblical days and read up on what the people were doing who were judged by God.
In my apologetics book by Dr. Norman Geisler, he goes into some of that background and its really helpful to know that stuff.

 

[MrJim]

Well, I don't have any joy in God judging with His wrath.
But what is the bottom line of this? We think more highly of humanity than we should.
We aren't considering God's view of our true condition - and how evil it is to reject our Creator who DIED for us so we could live.
You're right, we're all deserving of His judgment - without His grace, we'd all be wiped out.
But this is what we deserve... that's hard for us to accept.

Evil is a cancer that spreads everywhere and takes over, I've heard some Pastors preach that it's basically a form of "culling" evil on the earth when God has acted to remove whole nations for their evil.

We tend to read about Jericho - but we didn't see the attrocities and evil's they committed against God or His people or on other human beings, or what they're future may have been had they been left.

(in general)- If we don't give God the benefit of trust in Him and adjust ourselves to HIS thoughts and ways as true and right, then we essentially judge God and decide we're more loving and righteous than He is.

That's a very dangerous position to put ourselves into and it's one that many Christians and nonChristians hold to often without realizing it.
When that continues to be fed, people start doubting and questioning more and eventually opposing their faith.

In those cases, I believe it's best to get some commentaries or books on ancient customs of Biblical days and read up on what the people were doing who were judged by God.
In my apologetics book by Dr. Norman Geisler, he goes into some of that background and its really helpful to know that stuff.

Granted the evils committed were bad~there is that and more going on now but no one suggests the perps children be executed too. That's the only point I'm trying to make on the subject. God doesn't have us go out and eradicate a people anymore. I'm not saying what He ordered was wrong~only that He is working through His people differently now.

 

[Nadiine]

Cris:

And I'm quite certain...this grieves God...in equal measure, at the very least, to the love He has for His creation

Nobody should like it

Ezekiel 33:11
"Say to them, ' As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

God almost always gives people plenty of time & opportunity to repent before His judgment falls.
He'd often send a prophet -- but the people would try to kill them (or succeed at it )

 

[Nadiine]

Granted the evils committed were bad~there is that and more going on now but no one suggests the perps children be executed too. That's the only point I'm trying to make on the subject. God doesn't have us go out and eradicate a people anymore. I'm not saying what He ordered was wrong~only that He is working through His people differently now.

This is the grace covenant we're under yes.
If it weren't for Christ, I shudder to think where many nations would be right now.

But His judgment is still coming - it's just delayed
1 Peter 4:18
Now “ If the righteous one is scarcely saved,Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

I still think our main problem is thinking too highly of ourselves.

To me, 1 Pet. 4:18 just shows me how far removed we are from God's ways anymore as our world spins into relativism & emotionalism.
God ends up being judged as the evil one and man is the compassionate saint.

 

[Simon_Templar]

This is one that never really bothered me.

I can understand why people have problems with this but I'm just the kind of person that it doesn't bother me.
I have often thought I was born in the wrong century though In many ways I'd have been more comfortable in the ancient world, or the middle ages.

A somewhat clieched saying, but true none the less is "Jesus Christ is in the Old Testament concealed, and in the new testament revealed." The two can't really be seperated. I think it would be very hard to really understand one without the other and also, if you ignore one in favor of the other, you will probably end up with a inaccurate view of God

 

[Cris413]

Thanks for the Scripture! Exactly!

Cris:

Nobody should like it

Ezekiel 33:11
"Say to them, ' As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

God almost always gives people plenty of time & opportunity to repent before His judgment falls.
He'd often send a prophet -- but the people would try to kill them (or succeed at it )

 

[Simon_Templar]

Granted the evils committed were bad~there is that and more going on now but no one suggests the perps children be executed too. That's the only point I'm trying to make on the subject. God doesn't have us go out and eradicate a people anymore. I'm not saying what He ordered was wrong~only that He is working through His people differently now.

I think people just make too many assumptions about this kind of thing.

For example, we assume that those people are like people today. Consider the fact that God gave them 400 years for their evil to become complete, basically 400 years for them to earn the wrath that was too come.

Our society is pretty bad right now... but imagine what it could be like if we were basically left to ourselves for 400 years to stew in our evil.

The level of corruption involved there was something that I don't think we really understand. It was so bad that even the land itself and the animals were corrupted.

It was essentially as bad as it was before the flood, except it was localized to that specific region instead of the entire world.

 

[Nadiine]

I think people just make too many assumptions about this kind of thing.

For example, we assume that those people are like people today. Consider the fact that God gave them 400 years for their evil to become complete, basically 400 years for them to earn the wrath that was too come.

Our society is pretty bad right now... but imagine what it could be like if we were basically left to ourselves for 400 years to stew in our evil.

The level of corruption involved there was something that I don't think we really understand. It was so bad that even the land itself and the animals were corrupted.

It was essentially as bad as it was before the flood, except it was localized to that specific region instead of the entire world.

Exactly.

And how many verses do we see where God states that people were crying out to Him for justice in the land becuz there was none for them.

People were plundered and even the court systems were unjust and didn't provide justice for them.
So what is God to do as 100 years go by and people are crying out to God for justice and help.... ignore them? He had to take action.
But imagine how people felt when they cried out to God in their lifetime, but God didn't set things right & they never saw it becuz God acted hundreds of years later....
they could have thought God didn't answer their prayers & cries. He did, it was much later due to His mercy.

He sends prophets & instead of listening they attack them and plot to kill them (sometimes succeeding)...

This is what I meant by 'culling' earlier.... I truly do believe that God culled evil nations to preserve people from evil in the long run. Sin begets sin and it compounds.

 

[MrJim]

I think people just make too many assumptions about this kind of thing.

For example, we assume that those people are like people today. Consider the fact that God gave them 400 years for their evil to become complete, basically 400 years for them to earn the wrath that was too come.

Our society is pretty bad right now... but imagine what it could be like if we were basically left to ourselves for 400 years to stew in our evil.

The level of corruption involved there was something that I don't think we really understand. It was so bad that even the land itself and the animals were corrupted.

It was essentially as bad as it was before the flood, except it was localized to that specific region instead of the entire world.

Still, killing the children?

Guess maybe there was some genetic corruption sorts of things we don't know about-who knows?

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Still, killing the children?

Guess maybe there was some genetic corruption sorts of things we don't know about-who knows?

Yeah, it's always the killing of the children that I can't reconcile. We grown ups... well, we make our own beds. But I don't understand all the first born being killed, for example.