Old Calendar v New Calendar

[ClementofRome]

I gotta say that I am still confused....and then I see reference to Old Calendarists? Some Jurisdictions are currently old and some are new? For instance, in another thread I see where some have St. Nicholas tomorrow, whereas, in my parish we celebrated St. Nicholas earlier in the month. What does this do to the date of Christmas?

What does it do to Pascha? (you mean there are then 3 Pascha dates?)

Forgive my inability to understand.

Uncle Clem

 

[choirfiend]

The Old Calendar is 13 days behind the modern secular calendar. Christmas is ALWAYS on Dec 25, but when the Old Calendar is Dec 25, on the modern calendar, it is January 7. Everything EXCEPT the Lenten/Paschal season is displaced like this. The arbitrary naming of days was never a church dogma, so we currently have 2 imperfect calendars, one of which is closer to the way time actually carries on (the New Calendar).

The Lenten/Paschal seasons are set in place by an ecumenical council, determined by lunar calendars, and are completely the same in Old and New calendars. There is one Orthodox Pascha--but when teh date for it is April 19 on the New (secular as well) Calendar, it is April 6 on the Old Calendar--but they happen at exactly the same time.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Just to add to the confusion...

The Finnish Orthodox Church celebrates Pascha on the Same date as the West. Since most Religious Finns are Lutheran, they asked to be able to celebrate it according the Western Calendar so they would more easily be able to celebrate it (days off, etc...) and the Oecumenical Patriarch granted them this oekonomia. It's pretty controversial becuase most Orthodox are pretty sure that if you don't celebrate Pascha after the first full moon close to the vernal equinox after a wolf has singnaled the beginning of spring with a deep throated howl but BEFORE the largest tide of the year hits Mt Athos... your salvation is in Jeopardy. Something like that. lol


Anyway, it's all confusing. I wish we were on Old Calendar, but being ont he New Calendar has it's benefits in the West so... whatever. It's still the Gospel.

John

 

[eoe]

In 2007 of course, it will be moot. The west actually gets it right this year.

 

[irishseventysix]

Both the old and the new coincide on moveable feasts because they're connected to Pascha. So we celebrate Lent, Holy Week, Pascha, Ascension, Pentecost, and the beginning of the Apostle's Fast at the same time.

They differ at the immovable feasts, which would involve the daily saints, Dormition, Nativity, Annunciation, the end of the Apostle's Fast, the beginning of the Liturgical Year, etc. by 13 days.

The fact that we're on different calendars bothers me a little. But it's also noteworthy that because of it, the Liturgy is celebrated on more days of the year.

My Godsister's patron saint is St. John of San Francisco, who reposed on July 2, 1966 in America on the real-world (with which the new calendar coincides) calendar everyone in America uses. Of course, he was on the Old Liturgical Calendar, so according to that, he reposed on June 19th (the day of my patron saint).

So you'd think our new calendar GOAA parish would celebrate him on July 2, right? Nope...we celebrate him on June 19. Of course, on the old calendar, St. John of SF did repose on St. Jude's feast day, so the GOAA may have chosen to connect him with St. Jude...especially since St. Jude figures a little into St. John of SF's story.

But it's still confusing.

 

[ClementofRome]

Thanks. I think that I asked this before and it did not stick. I sort of knew the answers to the calendar question, but I just got thrown in the St. Nicholas thing.

I promise, I will keep trying to "get it!"

 

[MichaelNZ]

The calendar was created by Julius Caesar in 46 BC. However, the mean year was slightly too long, and the vernal equinox kept slipping back. By 1582, the Julian Calendar was 10 days fast. Therefore, Pope Gregory XIII, after consulting his astronomers, declared that the day following 4 October 1582 was to be 15 October, thus fixing the 10 day difference. Since then, the difference between the two calendars has increaed to 13 days.

Because we don't recognize the Pope's authority, the Orthodox didn't accept this new calendar and continued to use the Julian Calendar. However, as just about all of Western Europe adopted the Gregorian Calendar, it became difficult for Orthodox countries to convert the dates. So in 1924, a synod in Istanbul decided to accept the Gregorian Calendar, but they came up with a new method of calculating leap years. The Revised Julian Calendar (as it was called) will be the same as the Gregorian until 2800.

The Churches of Jerusalem, Russia, Serbia, Georgia, Mt. Athos and the Greek Old Calendarists rejected the RJC, but they still use it (or the Gregorian Calendar) for secular life. Easter in all the Orthodox Churches (except Finland) is calculated according to the Julian Calendar.

I think that Christmas should be celebrated on the Old Calendar in all the Orthodox churches. By this time, all the hype of secular Christmas ('Santamas') has died down and we can concentrate on the birth of Christ.

 

[irishseventysix]

I think that Christmas should be celebrated on the Old Calendar in all the Orthodox churches. By this time, all the hype of secular Christmas ('Santamas') has died down and we can concentrate on the birth of Christ.

I like that sentiment, too. That and whatever gifts we do buy would be at After Christmas Sales! Quite a perque, no?

 

[choirfiend]

I prefer to bring my contribution of a focus on the Nativity into my culture rather than seek to remove it from it. Get used to being counter-culture in many ways---but seek more to being culture-sanctifying. For whatever reason, it is never right to try to "fix" the Church, especially in the context of whatever modern "problem" arises in your mind. She operates for different reasons.

 

[irishseventysix]

I prefer to bring my contribution of a focus on the Nativity into my culture rather than seek to remove it from it. Get used to being counter-culture in many ways---but seek more to being culture-sanctifying. For whatever reason, it is never right to try to "fix" the Church, especially in the context of whatever modern "problem" arises in your mind. She operates for different reasons.

TOUCHE.

 

[ThePilgrim]

Just to add to the confusion...

The Finnish Orthodox Church celebrates Pascha on the Same date as the West. Since most Religious Finns are Lutheran, they asked to be able to celebrate it according the Western Calendar so they would more easily be able to celebrate it (days off, etc...) and the Oecumenical Patriarch granted them this oekonomia. It's pretty controversial becuase most Orthodox are pretty sure that if you don't celebrate Pascha after the first full moon close to the vernal equinox after a wolf has singnaled the beginning of spring with a deep throated howl but BEFORE the largest tide of the year hits Mt Athos... your salvation is in Jeopardy. Something like that. lol


Anyway, it's all confusing. I wish we were on Old Calendar, but being ont he New Calendar has it's benefits in the West so... whatever. It's still the Gospel.

John

Actually, they celebrate it on that day because the government forced them to.

 

[Ilian]

Actually, they celebrate it on that day because the government forced them to.

I believe to gain official recognition, and thereby state support, they did have to adhere to the same calendar as the state Lutheran church. Moscow Patriarchate parishes in Finland, which do not have official state support, continue to use the Julian Calendar.

I actually believe the Finns have it right (assuming one has to use a calendar different than the church calendar). Having the fixed and movable feasts on different calendars in my opinion does not make sense. It does strange things for instance like on certain years deprecating the Apostles Fast to something like two days.

The best solution in my opinion however is to simply remain on the traditional church calendar.

 

[jckstraw72]

it is never right to try to "fix" the Church, especially in the context of whatever modern "problem" arises in your mind. She operates for different reasons.

isnt that what the people who imposed the New Calendar tried to do, to fix a "problem?"

 

[rusmeister]

Ah, an old favorite topic of mine...

It sure messes up my life. A cultural American deep in the OC (old calendar) heartland of Russia...
I could just be old calendar, but on Dec 24th, my thoughts turn to Christmas Eve, home, and my own childhood, and for me, that's Christmas. Fasting through that depresses me, so we celebrate Western Christmas. After that, the spirit of the fast is gone (and there's New Year on Jan 1st, which Orthodox Christians are not supposed to celebrate, but many (I'll dare say even most) do anyway, including us. The effect on Eastern Christmas (Jan 7th) is deleterious. I wish we were all on one calendar, and that that calendar had Christmas before New Year.

Oh, here's an OC site I use to coordinate the English language and my local church calendar:
http://cgi.duke.edu/~aa63/menologion/menologion.cgi

 

[theoforos]

The Finnish Orthodox Church celebrates Pascha on the Same date as the West.

That's funny, I just replied to a post about this on a Finnish Orthodox board and then I come here and see you guys discussing us... Someone over there asked if we should go back to using the Julian calendar for Pascha, and I said my opinion was that we should because all the other Orthodox are using Julian Paschalion and we are supposed to be celebrating Pascha together (although some years like in 2007 we will, no matter what calendar). I don't know if the authorities would oppose to that any more, the things were a bit more tense in the 1920s when Finland had recently gained independence and suddenly the Orthodox found themselves as representantives of the religion of the former mother country in the middle of a large and to some extent hostile Lutheran majority. But as I said, I don't think it would be a problem any more. Of course, there are some benefits with using the same calendar for Pascha as the majority, not the least the fact that pretty much everyone has Friday and Monday off, so you don't have to ask for any special favor to get those days off. But if I were to decide I'd still opt for celebrating Pascha always on the same date as the rest of the Orthodox.

 

[ufonium2]

New Year on Jan 1st, which Orthodox Christians are not supposed to celebrate, but many (I'll dare say even most) do anyway, including us. http://cgi.duke.edu/~aa63/menologion/menologion.cgi

Do you mean Old Calendar Orthodox aren't supposed to? Because I've been to a New Year's party at a priest's house, with several clergy from various jurisdictions in attendance.

 

[templetoes]

I suppose that would depend on how it is celebrated. At the moment the Gregorian 1st January is during a fast period so that would limit the choice of canapes. However I wouldn't see any problem in noting the secular new year using the secular, Gregorian, calendar. The ecclesiastical new year is on the 1st of September - that is a day to observe and pray on new beginings.

ICXC NIKA

 

[copticorthodoxy]

Old calendar Christmas is more spiritual , 25 Dec became more commercial

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Old calendar Christmas is more spiritual , 25 Dec became more commercial

I guess that's why I would prefer it... call it escapism, but it would be nice for Christmas to be a Feast Day again and not a Holiday. Does that make sense? But, in Russia, I am sure it is commecialized too even though theirs is on 7 January. So, it's not about the date, it's about being separate from the surrounding culture. So it's not about the OC being better thant he NC in this case... it's just about it being different enough to escae the commercial Christmas season of the western Dec 25th.

I plan to recognize Jan 7th in my household like others have mentioned (Ilian I think?) even though by then we are in Theophany, I believe. Will I go to hell for that?

John

 

[Ilian]

But, in Russia, I am sure it is commecialized too even though theirs is on 7 January.

Historically Christmas wasn't as big of a deal there. It may be getting more commercialized, but I doubt it is anything approaching what it is like here.

I plan to recognize Jan 7th in my household like others have mentioned (Ilian I think?) even though by then we are in Theophany, I believe.

Our church is actually on the Old Calendar, so the 7th is Christmas for us.