Oklahoma: OK to say dinos co-existed with humans

[dad]

That's correct... it also doesn't address my point.

I am related to my cousin, that does not mean I am my cousin.

No, but we hope your cousin is a human?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Contraction?

Just because history indicates something doesn't necessarily mean God definitively can't exist. However, looking at the historical record, it would indicate strongly against the idea.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Then what do BC and AD stand for?

Before Christ and Anno Domini.... What's your point?

 

[Dave Ellis]

No, but we hope your cousin is a human?

That is correct.... What's your point?

 

[dad]

p.s. We don't know God is true, and history would indicate God is not real.

Millions upon hundreds of millions do and did know though. History saw Rome kill Jesus, and then bite the dust. They saw Israel go into captivity when they left Him. They saw Jerusalem destroyed and their temple after the killed the messiah. They saw Babylon fall, and Medo Persia and Greece. They saw nation after nation rise and fall according to how they responded to God and His people.

Your God did not exist during the times of the Egyptian Old Kingdom,

Yes that was after the flood.

and once he was invented, he was confined to a fairly small region of the middle east.

God chose a nation to work out from, to eventually encompass the earth.

That's not consistent with the idea of a God who created everyone, as it would logically follow that every civilization on earth would have had knowledge of him at all times.

False. They did have knowledge but went deep into sin, and far from Him.

Another strawman.... I never said God must pop out of a puddle, I said that would be one good method to demonstrate he exists. ANY method that could be used to verify his existence would do.

So puddle popping is a good method in your mind. OK. Forget history and prophesy and miracles etc....Dave wants a puddle...wahhh.

Reading testimony or observations can't do that. We don't know who these people are, or if they actually saw or experienced what they were writing.

Yes we know who they were and the death of them and others showed that they meant it.

They could have been mistaken, they could be lying, or they could be attributing something to God which was unexplainable to them at the time (i.e. a bolt of lightning).

No, Jesus fulfilled hundreds of scriptures no chance they were lying.

If God was observable then, God should be observable now, where is the direct evidence?

We see through a glass darkly now. No angels on the shoulder, generally either. The people that saw Lazarus rise from the dead still disbelieved later. It is a shrill con to yell for a sign. The issues are deeper. We had signs coming out the wazoo for millennia now.

There are no confirmed examples of fulfilled prophecy,

Were you born yesterday, or just never looked into it??

nor miracles.

Nor last week?!

There is no evidence that Christ rose from the dead, or even existed at all. And there's no evidence for your Creation myth.

What year is it? Year of our Lord, 2013. History was affected big time. No silly armchair revision matters.

Of course, just as the limits of reality are that which is real.

Wow. Ya think??

If Man is only 5-6,000 years old, Evolution is not required for our survival as we currently exist. We are well adapted to many climates on earth.

Evolution hardly exists anymore in this state! It was needed a man and beast spread out from Eden. The world was not all habitable. Why do you think God needed a garden??

Likewise, if I was a creator, I could easily ensure that setup will never change, and therefore man will never have any need to evolve.

So you would lock in this temporary state. Thankfully you are not God!

I don't believe Sin exists in the real world.

All is a bed of roses then, and people are good and kind and it is peace and laughter and plenty for all. OK.

Don't get me wrong, there are some bad people in the world, who commit horrible acts. However sin is violating God's law, which I think is nothing more than a figment of Christian's imaginations.

Well the figment sure has been running wild since Eden.

Maybe if the choir is made up of people who sing like Roseanne. However if we're talking about real history, there are some minor parts of scripture which are valid, however none of the supernatural aspects are supported.

Well when many see their friend and relative in some cases risen from the very very dead, that does support more than business a present state usual.

 

[dad]

That is correct.... What's your point?

If you admit your cousin is human, then don't call worms and monkeys kinfolk.

 

[TLK Valentine]

If you admit your cousin is human, then don't call worms and monkeys kinfolk.

Why not? We can call you kinfolk -- that alone should tell you where the bar is set.

 

[quilbilly]

If you admit your cousin is human, then don't call worms and monkeys kinfolk.

Your cousins cousins grandfathers mothers father is still related to you abd an examination of the DNA would show it.

 

[super animator]

Just because history indicates something doesn't necessarily mean God definitively can't exist. However, looking at the historical record, it would indicate strongly against the idea.

That's assuming that the idea of god is constant throughout history.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Millions upon hundreds of millions do and did know though. History saw Rome kill Jesus, and then bite the dust. They saw Israel go into captivity when they left Him. They saw Jerusalem destroyed and their temple after the killed the messiah. They saw Babylon fall, and Medo Persia and Greece. They saw nation after nation rise and fall according to how they responded to God and His people.

Argument from popularity fallacy... And if you want to argue that civilizations fall when they turn from God, how do you explain China which has endured for pretty well all of recorded history, and has never had a large Jewish or Christian following?

Yes that was after the flood.

Actually, no it wasn't... Going by Biblical genealogy the flood would have happened somewhere in the 5th or 6th dynasties in the Egyptian Old Kingdom. Yet for some reason nobody in Egypt seemed to notice they had been killed in a massive flood and continued their civilization with no problems.

God chose a nation to work out from, to eventually encompass the earth.

That's absurd, if everyone was a descendant of Adam and Eve, why would God need to choose a nation? Everyone would have known about him, and if somehow they had forgotten, that knowledge would be reintroduced at the time of Noah.

False. They did have knowledge but went deep into sin, and far from Him.

Which is also contradictory to history. For example we know for sure the native Americans had no concept of Christianity before the Europeans arrived.

So puddle popping is a good method in your mind. OK. Forget history and prophesy and miracles etc....Dave wants a puddle...wahhh.

Hey, you came up with the idea... If you don't like the fact it's more reliable than what you consider to be evidence, that's your problem, not mine.

Yes we know who they were and the death of them and others showed that they meant it.

Can you show those stories are anything more than religious myth?

No, Jesus fulfilled hundreds of scriptures no chance they were lying.

Funny thing the Jews follow the same scripture you do, and they don't think he fulfilled anything.

We see through a glass darkly now. No angels on the shoulder, generally either. The people that saw Lazarus rise from the dead still disbelieved later. It is a shrill con to yell for a sign. The issues are deeper. We had signs coming out the wazoo for millennia now.

Care to name a sign that I can confirm is true?

Were you born yesterday, or just never looked into it??

I've looked deeply into it

Nor last week?!

?

What year is it? Year of our Lord, 2013. History was affected big time. No silly armchair revision matters.

I suggest you brush up on your history.... The Anno Domini system for dating years was not developed until the 6th century, and our current calendar was developed by Pope Gregory in the 16th century (hence, Gregorian Calendar). The people who figured out where year 1AD is lived centuries, if not millennia after Jesus was supposed to have lived.

Wow. Ya think??

Apparently you haven't grasped that concept yet, so I figured I'd point it out for you.

Evolution hardly exists anymore in this state! It was needed a man and beast spread out from Eden. The world was not all habitable. Why do you think God needed a garden??

If God was all powerful, he didn't need a garden. If he wanted to he could have had Adam living a comfortable life on the surface of the sun.

So you would lock in this temporary state. Thankfully you are not God!

Well, we happen to exist in a temporary state as it is.

All is a bed of roses then, and people are good and kind and it is peace and laughter and plenty for all. OK.

Well the figment sure has been running wild since Eden.

You should go into business selling strawmen, you seem to have an overstocked inventory.

Well when many see their friend and relative in some cases risen from the very very dead, that does support more than business a present state usual.

And it would be great if we knew of a person like that.

 

[Dave Ellis]

That's assuming that the idea of god is constant throughout history.

Well, I hear Christians all the time telling me that God is perfect and unchanging.

 

[super animator]

Well, I hear Christians all the time telling me that God is perfect and unchanging.

But their ideas are not.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Well what if there was no decay in the far past and what we see is not age or decay recorded, but just stuff that is here in this present state where decay exists?

Then it is an incredible coincidence that the dots fall on that line.

Fall in line with WHAT, though is the question.

No, not fall in line. Fall on the line. All of those dots, which should be randomly distributed if there is no connection between them to radioactive decay over time, fall on a line in the plot. Either they fall on that line for a reason, or it is an incredible coincidence.

Do me the small kindness of clicking the links in my previous post and looking at those graphs. Look at the dots. Look at the line. The standard scientific understanding predicts that the dots should fall on a line. They do fall on a line. This is a confirmed prediction. You asked for a specific prediction. I have provided one. It is up to you to offer an alternative explanation.

 

[dad]

Argument from popularity fallacy... And if you want to argue that civilizations fall when they turn from God, how do you explain China which has endured for pretty well all of recorded history, and has never had a large Jewish or Christian following?

They do now and are on the rise! All history tells the story cover to cover.

Actually, no it wasn't... Going by Biblical genealogy the flood would have happened somewhere in the 5th or 6th dynasties in the Egyptian Old Kingdom. Yet for some reason nobody in Egypt seemed to notice they had been killed in a massive flood and continued their civilization with no problems.

False. Your dating cannot be supported!!!!!

That's absurd, if everyone was a descendant of Adam and Eve, why would God need to choose a nation? Everyone would have known about him, and if somehow they had forgotten, that knowledge would be reintroduced at the time of Noah.

Because the world had to be destroyed for it's extreme wickedness. The world that started to be after that was also wicked. God needed a people apparently to work with.

Which is also contradictory to history. For example we know for sure the native Americans had no concept of Christianity before the Europeans arrived.

They also had cannibalism and slavery and lots of wickedness. You are looking at the after they went far from God part.

Hey, you came up with the idea... If you don't like the fact it's more reliable than what you consider to be evidence, that's your problem, not mine.

Expecting God Almighty to pop out of a puddle is just plain silly. If that is your idea of reliable, while sluffing off prophesy miracles and history, I think that you are unrealistic.

Can you show those stories are anything more than religious myth?

Have you reason to doubt Paul or Mary or Jesus, or Peter existed?

Funny thing the Jews follow the same scripture you do, and they don't think he fulfilled anything.

They do not think such a thing based on knowledge.

I suggest you brush up on your history.... The Anno Domini system for dating years was not developed until the 6th century, and our current calendar was developed by Pope Gregory in the 16th century (hence, Gregorian Calendar). The people who figured out where year 1AD is lived centuries, if not millennia after Jesus was supposed to have lived.

So? That is still centuries before you!

If God was all powerful, he didn't need a garden. If he wanted to he could have had Adam living a comfortable life on the surface of the sun.

Hey, God did what He did, your job is not second guessing, from the standpoint of ignorance.

 

[dad]

Then it is an incredible coincidence that the dots fall on that line.

They only connect in imaginary time.

No, not fall in line. Fall on the line. All of those dots, which should be randomly distributed if there is no connection between them to radioactive decay over time, fall on a line in the plot. Either they fall on that line for a reason, or it is an incredible coincidence.

The plot is based on what exactly?

Do me the small kindness of clicking the links in my previous post and looking at those graphs. Look at the dots. Look at the line. The standard scientific understanding predicts that the dots should fall on a line. They do fall on a line. This is a confirmed prediction. You asked for a specific prediction. I have provided one. It is up to you to offer an alternative explanation.

Is this the line you mean?

Tell us about the meaning of the dots then?

 

[Dave Ellis]

They do now and are on the rise! All history tells the story cover to cover.

The percentage of Christians in China range between 0.75 and 4% of the total population depending which source you refer to. Its hardly a thriving Christian society.... Their rise is attributable to free market economic reforms which have introduced substantial wealth into the country.

False. Your dating cannot be supported!!!!!

I'm using your dating!

Because the world had to be destroyed for it's extreme wickedness. The world that started to be after that was also wicked. God needed a people apparently to work with.

And assuming your god is timeless and all knowing, he must have known when he created the world that the world would devolve into extreme wickedness. The fact he went through with the plan regardless means he either intended for it to happen, or he's inept.

They also had cannibalism and slavery and lots of wickedness. You are looking at the after they went far from God part.

Christians also had slavery.... In fact the Christians enslaved many of the Native Americans, then brought even more slaves over from Africa! Come on!

If you went back and visited the Aztecs in 1450, they had absolutely no concept of the God you worship.

Expecting God Almighty to pop out of a puddle is just plain silly. If that is your idea of reliable, while sluffing off prophesy miracles and history, I think that you are unrealistic.

I don't expect God to pop out of a puddle, however if he did, I would have to accept it as true.

As for all the other stuff, I sluff off all that stuff because none of it is reliable. The same reason you reject all the holy texts of other religions is why I reject yours. You must be able to demonstrate some good reason why we should think it's real.

Have you reason to doubt Paul or Mary or Jesus, or Peter existed?

Yes, I do.

They do not think such a thing based on knowledge.

Neither do you

So? That is still centuries before you!

What's your point? My point was that our current calendar dates from over 1500 years after Jesus was supposedly born. Yet, you're using it as some kind of evidence to suggest he lived.

If we had set out calendar based on the birthday of Thor, does that make Thor real too?

Hey, God did what He did, your job is not second guessing, from the standpoint of ignorance.

It's not the standpoint of ignorance, if God is all powerful, then he doesn't need a garden. It's simple logic.... Adam could have lived anywhere.

 

[dad]

The percentage of Christians in China range between 0.75 and 4% of the total population depending which source you refer to. Its hardly a thriving Christian society.... Their rise is attributable to free market economic reforms which have introduced substantial wealth into the country.

Says you. I have heard unofficial estimates of 300 million born again believers there. But the story does not lie in the number of believers only. For all I know, the Anti Christ might have one country fight another so that all will be weak but him. There are many possibilities. But when a nation like Britain or the US has believed to a national extent, and later backslides, I think they lose the blessing of God.

I'm using your dating!

No, I never dated your dynasties. Focus.

And assuming your god is timeless and all knowing, he must have known when he created the world that the world would devolve into extreme wickedness. The fact he went through with the plan regardless means he either intended for it to happen, or he's inept.

I suspect that if God did not pick a people and give His words to man, the inevitable end result of wickedness would have been a lot faster.

He knew mankind would resort to Gomorrahism in the end also. But He still corrected mankind with Sodom and Gomorrah being burned by fire from heaven, which slowed down the process exponentially.

Christians also had slavery.... In fact the Christians enslaved many of the Native Americans, then brought even more slaves over from Africa! Come on!

Mankind had slavery, and still does and will in the future to a great degree. Believers in a society are not above all things that sin produces. The sin laws and sin ways of a nation are shared by many believers to some extent.

If you went back and visited the Aztecs in 1450, they had absolutely no concept of the God you worship.

When people leave God they forget God.

I don't expect God to pop out of a puddle, however if he did, I would have to accept it as true.

Others might say you went insane, and that what you saw was a delusion. Better to have His word and prophesy and miracles.

As for all the other stuff, I sluff off all that stuff because none of it is reliable. The same reason you reject all the holy texts of other religions is why I reject yours. You must be able to demonstrate some good reason why we should think it's real.

That debate will not be solved in this thread. People are welcome to their beliefs. Just do not call it science.

Yes, I do.

Show the reasons then.

Neither do you

Yes, I do. I do not deny that Jesus was to come a certain year in a certain way in a certain town, die a certain way, and etc etc.

What's your point? My point was that our current calendar dates from over 1500 years after Jesus was supposedly born. Yet, you're using it as some kind of evidence to suggest he lived.

People closer to the facts of early history accepted the facts of the gospel enough to set the calendar by it, no less.

If we had set out calendar based on the birthday of Thor, does that make Thor real too?

Yes. A real demon. Now you know.

It's not the standpoint of ignorance, if God is all powerful, then he doesn't need a garden. It's simple logic.... Adam could have lived anywhere.

he said He planted a garden. No logic needed. Proverbs mentions a habitable part of the earth at the beginning. That indicates not all of it was habitable. Evolving ability was needed.

 

[essentialsaltes]

They only connect in imaginary time.

No, the actual today-measured values when plotted, fall on a line.

Is this the line you mean?

Tell us about the meaning of the dots then?

Yes, that is one of the two plots. This shows the ratios of different isotopes found in lunar samples. Each dot represents a different lunar rock from Apollo samples. The dot plots the ratio of one pair of related isotopes on one axis, against the ratio of a different pair of related isotopes on the other.

If the ratios are simply contents of the rock, like an ingredient list, with no meaning related to age, then we would expect the ratios to vary randomly, and the plot would be random dots.

If the ratios are the result of radioactive decay over time, then this assumption predicts that the dots will lie along a line. They do.

The slope of the line represents the age, under the usual assumptions.

The other interesting coincidence is that a similar plot for meteorites using yet other isotopes, also has the samples falling on a line. And that line's slope corresponds to the same age as the lunar samples.

These are predictions of the standard scientific assumptions, and they are verified. And they agree with each other.

More Background

The existence of these isochron lines in measured ratios of different samples is a brilliant example of a successful confirmed prediction of radiometric dating.

 

[dad]

No, the actual today-measured values when plotted, fall on a line.



Yes, that is one of the two plots. This shows the ratios of different isotopes found in lunar samples. Each dot represents a different lunar rock from Apollo samples. The dot plots the ratio of one pair of related isotopes on one axis, against the ratio of a different pair of related isotopes on the other.

If the ratios are simply contents of the rock, like an ingredient list, with no meaning related to age, then we would expect the ratios to vary randomly, and the plot would be random dots.

If the ratios are the result of radioactive decay over time, then this assumption predicts that the dots will lie along a line. They do.

The slope of the line represents the age, under the usual assumptions.

In other words under the assumption of a same state past! Apparently you miss the whole point here. Whether you put the pattern in a set of dots or as imaginary ages, it still represents the same thing...stuff in a rock that is now decaying at a certain rate.

You seem to have thought I would not expect all rocks in the former state to have a certain pattern. False.

Much ado about nothing.

The other interesting coincidence is that a similar plot for meteorites using yet other isotopes, also has the samples falling on a line. And that line's slope corresponds to the same age as the lunar samples.

No coincidence. It is a pattern! You have interpreted the pattern as ages, because you believe that decay and this state always existed.

These are predictions of the standard scientific assumptions, and they are verified. And they agree with each other.

Of course a pattern exists. No relation to a same state past of decay in the past that you have shown.

The existence of these isochron lines in measured ratios of different samples is a brilliant example of a successful confirmed prediction of radiometric dating.

Nah...it is a shell game. Obfuscation. Confusing the issue. The pattern can be predicted using the present state, I could accept that. What the pattern represents deppends entirely, of course on what state the material existed in. That you do not know.


That is how it is.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The pattern can be predicted using the present state.

How do you predict it? I've shown how the conversion over time of multiple independent isotopes into their daughter isotopes would predict a linear relationship in the ratios. On what do you base your prediction of this linear relationship?

So far all you've said is that the rocks must have been in some past state that ultimately produces the presently observed state. That is not a prediction. That is just the obvious statement that the rocks had some sort of past. You have to come up with some mechanism that explains why the current linear pattern exists. Otherwise, the fact that all those dots lie on that line is an incredible coincidence.