OK what do we think about ghosts?

[Amber the Duskbringer]

None of the Gospel accounts are actually eyewitness accounts either. I'm afraid I'm with Bultmann on that one.

Fair enough

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Judging by the amounts of mods and admins looking at my account I just want to clarify that I do infact accept Jesus Christ. In case that was cast into doubt by this thread or any other.

 

[Timothew]

None of the Gospel accounts are actually eyewitness accounts either. I'm afraid I'm with Bultmann on that one.

Isn't John an eyewitness account? He was with Jesus after the resurrection. (1 John 1:1,2,3; which we have seen with our own eyes...we have seen it and testify to it...we proclaim to you what we have seen and heard)

 

[Timothew]

Also see John 21:24

John claims to have been there and saw and testifies to what he saw.

 

[artybloke]

John's Gospel? The one written at the end of the 1st Century you mean? Probably, like all the other Gospels, by someone from a church that was possibly associated with the disciple John, rather than by John himself?

No.

 

[Timothew]

John's Gospel? The one written at the end of the 1st Century you mean? Probably, like all the other Gospels, by someone from a church that was possibly associated with the disciple John, rather than by John himself?

No.

I'm over my head, but...

Internally, the book claims to be written by an eyewitness.
also, the date is not set in stone. There are other opinions.

Conservative scholars consider internal evidences, such as the lack of the mention of the destruction of the Temple and a number of passages that they consider characteristic of an eyewitness,[47][48] sufficient evidence that the gospel was composed before 100 and perhaps as early as 50–70: in the 1970s, scholars Leon Morris and John A.T. Robinson independently suggested earlier dates for the gospel's composition.[49][50][51]
The noncanonical Dead Sea Scrolls suggest an early Jewish origin, parallels and similarities to the Essene Scroll, and Rule of the Community.[52] Many phrases are duplicated in the Gospel of John and the Dead Sea Scrolls. These are sufficiently numerous to challenge the theory that the Gospel of John was the last to be written among the four Gospels[53] and that it shows marked non-Jewish influence.[54]

(admittedly wiki, but this shows there are other date claims. John should not be rejected as an eyewitness just because some believe he didn't write the gospel.)

 

[artybloke]

I wouldn't trust a 'conservative scholar' further than I could chuck him.

 

[Timothew]

I wouldn't trust a 'conservative scholar' further than I could chuck him.

Nor I a liberal. It seems we are at an impasse.
Inhale this but do not touch. What you do not smell is Iocaine Powder, one of the most deadly poisons known to man.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Nor I a liberal. It seems we are at an impasse.
Inhale this but do not touch. What you do not smell is Iocaine Powder, one of the most deadly poisons known to man.

:3 So we shall turn this thread into a Princess bride quote off eh?

Anybody want a peanut?

 

[artybloke]

Nor I a liberal. It seems we are at an impasse.
Inhale this but do not touch. What you do not smell is Iocaine Powder, one of the most deadly poisons known to man.

'Conservative scholars' were actually much more responsible for me becoming a liberal than the liberal arguments. They were all so full of special pleading, if and buts and and 'it might have been possible thats' that frankly, I just got so frustrated with them I began to see it as nothing but cognitive dissonance.

 

[woodpecker]

arty what is your reasoning for posting on this "moderate" thread,...your replies seem to be that of non-believer, why have you come over here to just call us mentally ill, or gullible fools.

God speaks to his children through visions and dreams, God allowed my grandfather to visit me in my dream...who are you to claim otherwise.

You do not have the Holy Spirit, and if you do, you are not open to all the gifts the Spirit can provide.

you have a very unpleasant attitude, very self righteous and judgmental.

 

[Johnnz]

Argy likes taunting Christians. He has his own faith - reason, but not that well thought through in some areas. He is harmelss enough and is good at challenging the sillier stuff that some post. Just don't get baited.

John
NZ

 

[artybloke]

You do not have the Holy Spirit

And you do know I could report you for that?

I'm sure you've had a very important experience. Is it from God? I've no idea.

But I've seen so much of the church get side-tracked into demon-hunting and other silliness. The devil of most peoples' imagination is as much an invention of the medieval church & Hollywood as it is anything else. It's not even particularly biblical.

 

[Gospel Trafficker]

But I've seen so much of the church get side-tracked into demon-hunting and other silliness. The devil of most peoples' imagination is as much an invention of the medieval church & Hollywood as it is anything else. It's not even particularly biblical.

First things first, the devil is of no imagination. He is as real as you and I. Just saying!

Here is a paradigm shift in deliverance that God has shown me that I thought would be relevant here at this point and time.

"WE WILL GET MORE DONE RESTING AT THE CROSS AND THE FINISHED WORKS OF THE CROSS THEN FIGHTING, SCREAMING, AND PLEADING THE BLOOD AGAINST EVERY DEMON AND AILMENT WE COME ACROSS!"

Remember, the battle is won already by Jesus! This is why when we see Jesus healed, saved, delivered, made whole in the scripture, it is actually all the same word (Greek; SOZO) If we are saved, then we are healed, and delivered as well. Enough of the demon busting, ghost hunting, exorcism fanatics. STAND IN THE SHADOW OF THE CROSS!

I hope this wasn't to off topic! But it was needed!

 

[Timothew]

But I've seen so much of the church get side-tracked into demon-hunting and other silliness. The devil of most peoples' imagination is as much an invention of the medieval church & Hollywood as it is anything else. It's not even particularly biblical.

That's a good reason to question everything.

I won't go demon-hunting with ya arty,
www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6Uq5VHGuPA&NR=1

 

[Gospel Trafficker]

But I've seen so much of the church get side-tracked into demon-hunting and other silliness. The devil of most peoples' imagination is as much an invention of the medieval church & Hollywood as it is anything else. It's not even particularly biblical.

Quick question Arty, Was Jesus sidetracked in casting out demons? Was God sidetracked in allowing the devil to torment Job? Were the apostles sidetracked in casting out demons? Were the Jews who were casting out demons in Jesus name sidetracked? How can you say this is not biblical?

This is not meant to challenge your intellect, but that is a tall claim. I think you should offer evidence if you wish to claim the casting out of demons not biblical.

 

[Gospel Trafficker]

One last thing I would also like to ask...Was God talking to Himself where God speaks to the Devil. Zechariah 3:2 shows God rebuking Satan when Satan opposed one of God's high priests. Matthew, Mark, and Luke record Jesus' speaking to Satan during 40 days of intense temptation. This is to also include Gods conversation with him in Job. The devil is by no means imaginative, otherwise God was crazy!!!! Where would that leave the rest of God's Word? We would all be living a lie, and the Christianity you claim to be "seeking" would by definition be illogical, therefore making you no better off. Where is the logic in that?

​

 

[salamacum]

So whatdo we think about ghosts?

 

[artybloke]

Quick question Arty, Was Jesus sidetracked in casting out demons? Was God sidetracked in allowing the devil to torment Job?

The second example is a story, meant to illustrate a very sophisticated philosophical dialogue about suffering not meant to be taken literally. If taken literally, God comes out of the story as not the most moral character in the world - someone who takes bets with the devil? Is that the kind of God you believe in? I've said before I think the first, if it happened and isn't just legendary, is probably mental illness.

Taking everything literally leads up lots of blind alleys. None of the rest of your examples seem to be literal events, rather symbolic events/stories.

Oh, and in case you ask, no, God didn't write the Bible.

 

[ebia]

I wouldn't trust a 'conservative scholar' further than I could chuck him.

Except, of course, that John Robinson was about as far from being a conservative as one gets.

Of course anyone who only reads scholarship he agrees with, whichever way around, can only reinforce his own preconceptions.

On the authorship of John's Gospel I recommend Richard Bauckham's Jesus and the Eyewitnesses.