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Ok, so let me get this straight.

Discussion in 'General Politics' started by miamited, Jun 20, 2019.

  1. Jamsie

    Jamsie Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ted, you raise excellent points as even a brief perusal of our interventions and disregard for Iran dating back 60 plus years or more gives full credence to Iran's mistrust. The nuclear issue was at the center and had been quite adequately addressed by all accounts...and it wasn't as if the US was alone in the negotiations. Is it really any wonder that trust in the US continues down....
     
  2. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi magillacuddy,

    No, I'm not interested in being or becoming some firebrand of change. I'm just looking at the situation and seeing how this has all played out. However, I will readily admit that I'm not one to think of my country, the United States of America as being some great and specially blessed of God nation. We're just another nation on the face of the earth. We do have a huge and powerful military, but that neither makes us great in righteousness or apparently fair in our dealings with other sovereign nations. In many, many ways, the United States of America is a more sinful nation than many other nations.

    BTW despite President Trump's claim that since he took over the 'death to America' chants aren't heard any longer, I just this very day watched a news story with live footage filmed in Iran with a huge banner hanging off of a building saying 'down with America'. I'm not so sure that Mr. Trump, as seems fairly normal for him, is really aware or being truthful with us as to what's going on in the world at large.

    That's my take.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
  3. Magillacuddy

    Magillacuddy From the dark, to the light...

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    Well sure, death to America is like a balm to their soul. Everyone should have some balm and some salve for their soul, Ted.

    I wondered whether obama the healer could have turned Iran into Persia again. Looks like a fail. Maybe he was lying on the world stage, or maybe the mullahs and ayatollahs really are your friends, and the Great Satan is really Trump!

    I'm learning to navigate American liberal minds, you'll have to excuse me if I don't sufficientely comprehend all the subtle notions of such complex minds. Maybe a call to shove Jews into the sea is blinding me at the moment, I can't swim that good.
     
  4. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi magillacuddy,

    Thanks for your response. You wrote:
    Yes, but I fear you missed my point. Let me see if I can be a bit more clear. President Trump has assured us at least a few times that since he began working in the Middle East that we don't hear the people of Iran shouting 'death to America'. So, I fully understand the 'why' that Iranians march in the streets and raise their fists to the sky and shout 'death to America'. They see us as oppressors to their right to live as a sovereign nation with their own dreams and desires and understanding of how the people living within the borders of Iran should be allowed to live. We are making life, and have been for quite some time, very, very difficult for them to live unless they will live under our authority. Unless they acquiesce to our demands as to how they shall live, we are oppressing their freedom to exist as a nation of people who want to live differently than we do, or even to, in some respects, live the same. They want to have and to hold the same weapons that we do because they understand that the United States, or any of the other nations that hold nuclear weapons, could, just as we've already shown we're willing to do in Japan, kill thousands upon thousands of their people with just the push of a button. They want the right to have the same defensive and offensive weapons as many of the other nations upon the earth have.

    Now they even have the additional hatred for us in that we signed off on an agreement, a plan if you will, whereby they could live in relative freedom and enjoy the bounty of free trade and they agreed to curtail their desire for nuclear weaponry. Then our great and morally defunct glorious leader pulled the rug out from under them and began screwing down upon them sanctions that are even worse than what they lived under previous to the agreement. Who isn't going to hate whatever entity would do that to a nation of people?

    We, of course think that they're unstable and shouldn't have control over such power, but they, especially now, look at us and think the same thing of us. They see a leader who gives no weight to already agreed upon matters. A leader who has no qualms in tweeting all over the globe that he's perfectly willing to annihilate them or North Korea or any other nation that doesn't toe the 'American' line. They live under the fear that maybe one day President Trump could wake up and say, "Push the button!" They want to hold that same kind of power and as a sovereign nation, they don't understand why they can't pursue such things just as much as the United States and China and Russia and Pakistan and India do.

    So yes, I think I fully understand 'why' they chant 'death to America'. My point, however, is that once again, the words proceeding from the mouth of our LIC have proven to be false. That he really isn't the great and powerful Oz that he tries to convince us that he is. He is just a mean man who will literally slice open ones throat and cut through the jugular to bring about unending pain and suffering until you acquiesce to his desires and commands. I imagine that most sovereign nations would feel put upon under such circumstances. Donald Trump doesn't know how to play well in the sandbox of nations. He doesn't understand that the human beings, the actual mothers and fathers and businessmen and women of other nations hold the same things dear and have the same hopes and desires as we do. That they have the right to live within their borders, just as we do, as they desire as a people to live.

    But here's the point. Your president is trying to convince you that it's only because of his acumen and savvy business tactics that we don't hear 'death to America' any longer. That just simply isn't true.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
  5. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi magillicuddy,

    You wrote:
    I can agree that Israel's existence is in a precarious place. However, I'm not so much in agreement that Iran is some principal nation in the endeavor to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Presently there are 19 of 21 nations in the Arab league that refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist as a nation and they have been in that position since 1948 when Israel was granted statehood. There were 128 nations across the globe that refused to agree with the U.S.'s move to accept Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel. Suffice to say that Israel has a lot of enemies. Iran is just one of many and in order of their proximity to Israel, are not even their most dangerous enemy.

    Iraq immediately opened the existence of Israel in 1948 with a declaration of war against Israel. They have participated in two wars against Israel. They still to this day, refuse to accept that Israel has a right to exist. Iraq is a much greater threat to Israel than Iran. Some of Iraq's aggression has lessened since the toppling of Hussein, but there again, that was a matter of the U.S. enforcing their will upon a nation. While the aggression has somewhat diminished, it's highly unlikely that the general feeling that Israel is an enemy, has.

    Saudi Arabia has begun work to recognize and work with Israel, but there is a long way to go yet.

    Egypt has worked on being more friendly with Israel since Anwar al-Sadat extended his hand of peace to Begin. However, Egypt has gone to war against Israel in the past.

    The Scriptures tell us that a time is coming when some sort of covenant/agreement will be made with Israel. Most bible scholars consider that this will be some promise of peace for Israel. Based on that, I would expect to see Israel's enemies softening. It's hard to imagine that there could actually be such a covenant if Israel's enemies were still in the blood thirsty, blood letting stage of relations. But that covenant isn't going to last and is actually one of the final prophecies to be fulfilled before the Lord's return. According to the Scriptures, in the very last days, all the nations upon the face of the earth are going to rise up against Israel.

    So, while I appreciate the anxiety that comes from thinking that Israel is going to be pushed into the sea. I think the Scriptures should give you assurance that it isn't going to happen. For those same Scriptures tell us that when all the nations rise up against Israel, God is going to fight for Israel. I'm assured that Israel will never again be removed from the face of the earth, according to the Scriptures.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
  6. Magillacuddy

    Magillacuddy From the dark, to the light...

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    If only the American liberal had the threat of being tossed into the sea.

    I do see that the Jew should count on the American liberal to stand opposed to Israel. I sure do
     
  7. Magillacuddy

    Magillacuddy From the dark, to the light...

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    There is no misunderstanding with you, you are quite clear where you stand.

    The President of the United States of America, not "my President", is not needed for me to see what you are trying to convince me about, Ted.

    And really Ted, no matter how many times you try to laughingly claim they no longer chant death to America, their leaders and mobs still do.

    But hey, at least we know their hopes and desires. Perhaps they will leave you to live, so it's good for you.
     
  8. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi magillacuddy,

    I really have no idea what you're trying to say in response to my post, but I'm sure it all makes sense to you. Listen, I hope that the Lord blesses you in all that you do. I pray that His face would shine upon you. If you are truly living in fear of being pushed into the sea, then I'd offer that your faith is in the wrong thing. God doesn't promise any of us that we won't suffer persecution in this life. In fact, His Son promises us exactly the opposite. That we will face persecution in this life. The difference between those who don't believe and those who do, is that no matter the persecution that we suffer in this life, and our brother Paul should give us a perfect example, the Lord is with us.

    The historical account of Paul offers us a terrible glimpse of the persecution that a believer might face. Death in this life is most certainly a real possibility, but for the believer, we understand that for us there is no sting in death. We go to a far, far greater place and a most glorious and wonderful reward when we leave this life upon the earth. Our goal is not safety and security in this life, but rather in the next.

    So, you can think of me as being some liberal American, but I believe I would be better classified as a believer in the one true God who is not dependent on safety in this life as some promise that God has given me. I'm going to die!!!! I'm a sinner!!!! I know that I'm going to die. Whether it be by being pushed into the sea or gassed in some block room full of poison gas. Whether it be by some fiery automobile accident or just lying in my bed one night breathing my last, I know without doubt that I'm going to die unless Jesus should return to the earth in the next 10-15 years. Even then there is no guarantee that I'm not going to die before that time. So, I fully expect to die. When I read of the deaths of the first apostles, I know that God hasn't promised any of His children some peaceful and quiet death in bed.

    It is claimed that the apostle John was boiled in oil before he was cast to the Isle of Patmos. Much like Daniel and his friends, God didn't allow him to die in that circumstance. Paul was bitten by a poisonous viper and God didn't allow him to die in that circumstance either. But, they did all die and for the most part, they died violent deaths. Jesus told Peter that his death would come at the hands of men who would take him where he didn't want to go.

    BTW you wrote a response to my post:
    You really don't understand at all what this entire group of my posts have been saying. I'm the one whose been trying to convince everyone that Iran still does chant 'death to America' despite the fact that our president says that they aren't. You really aren't getting this.

    Further, your understanding that I don't stand with Israel is completely wrong. Israel is God's chosen people. I stand with Israel as God's chosen people.

    God bless you,
    In Christ, ted
     
  9. Magillacuddy

    Magillacuddy From the dark, to the light...

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    I have no idea what you are trying to say when you claim on the one hand, Iran is now nice, and on the other hand you are saying you are trying convince everyone the opposite. Which is it Ted?

    I think what you tried to say is that Jews shouldn't mind being driven into the sea or nation's calling for their death...because Jesus promised no one an easy go of it. Is that what you are saying Ted?

    What you and a few others don't get is that I didn't vote for President Trump, so anyone walking by who questions your ideas is a "Trump supporter"

    You can clarify yourself, not a problem. So you say you stand with Israel. Ok. What does that mean to you? Do you listen to what Israel actually wants, or do you decide what is best for them?
     
  10. Ringo84

    Ringo84 Separation of Church and State expert

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    It's not about "solid leadership". It's about tough talk and bluster that pleases chickenhawks and keeps money in the coffers of defense contractors.

    By any measurable standard, a toddler would be a better leader than Donny.
    Ringo
     
  11. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi magillicuddy,

    Thanks for your response. You responded:
    Look I have no idea where you got the idea that I thought Iran was nice. My point is just that Iran is a sovereign nation and as such has as much right to the technology of the world and the freedom to live as they'd like to live, within reason of course, without the U.S. bullying them into submission. My point is that looking at the present leader of the U.S., he has been more threatening than anyone else on the face of the earth in the last couple of years. He's threatened to obliterate N. Korea and now he's threatening to obliterate Iran. I can't imagine that world leaders aren't more worried about Donnie Trump's finger on the nuclear button than any other world leader.

    Knowing this, I can understand Iran being anxious and feeling that it's not quite fair that the U.S. and China and Russia and Pakistan and India all get to play in the nuclear weapon sand box and they don't. How is that fair is all I'm asking and who died and made the U.S. the dictator of any sovereign nation's ability to have nuclear weapons...if we do?

    So, I'm going to encourage that you work on your reading comprehension and go through and reread my posts. Then come back to this thread and copy and quote exactly what you think that I said that infers that I think that Iran is nice. As I said in my last response to you is that all I'm interested in helping people see is that our President is a liar. He has repeadted crowed about how we no longer hear 'death to America' in Iran. I never said that. President Trump did and I think I was clear on that point in my original post on this subject. However, if you disagree that that's not what I said, then just copy quote where you found in any of my writings that I said that we no longer hear 'death to America' in Iran.

    In the meantime, I only hope that you'll take my advice and understand the position you are arguing against before you make such a foolish mistake as you're making now.

    God bless you,
    In Christ, ted
     
  12. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi again magillicuddy,

    You also wrote:
    You really do like to draw out inferences that just aren't there, don't you? I never said that anyone shouldn't mind being persecuted, but born again believers should expect that they will be. It was practically a promise that Jesus made to us. I then stated that we're all going to die. How we die in this life isn't really the important issue. The Scriptures tell us that for the born again believer, there is no sting in death. Do you have any idea what that means? We shouldn't fear death. It's going to come. None of us are promised that we're just going to draw our last breath while we sleep peacefully in our beds. The evidence that we have of the first apostles is that most of them died a martyr's death. They were put to death for their faith and we shouldn't be surprised if we suffer that same fate. However, I also made the point that I believe that the Scriptures tell us that Israel will never again be wiped from the face of the earth and so worrying that you're going to be pushed into the sea would indicate to me that you may not rightly understand the Scriptures and the future of Israel.

    People are all the time saying that global warming is going to destroy the earth if we don't get a handle on it. I believe that there is the possibility that global warming may cause more flooding or bad weather, but it is not going to destroy the earth. God has been pretty clear that it's going to be by His hand that the earth is destroyed. His Son is going to come down from heaven and every nation upon the earth is going to rise up in battle against him. Trust me please, that can't happen if we destroy the earth by global warming. There won't be any nations to rise up against the Son of God and the son of man.

    You then responded:
    You really concluded that I thought you voted for Trump from this post?:

    BTW you wrote a response to my post:
    You really don't understand at all what this entire group of my posts have been saying. I'm the one whose been trying to convince everyone that Iran still does chant 'death to America' despite the fact that our president says that they aren't. You really aren't getting this.


    I'll repeat again that you draw odd inferences that are pretty much of your own imagining. I suppose because it's what you want me to have said. It's what you want to hear my words say. I remember asking a teacher when I was in middle school if I could go to the bathroom. She said no, and I got up to leave the room. She stopped me and asked if I had heard what she said and I responded that I did. She said to me that no, I had heard what I wanted to hear.

    Finally, you questioned my sincerity when I said that I stood with Israel.
    I do stand with Israel. Do I mean that to be that everything that they do is right? No. Not anymore than I think that the U.S. does everything right. The Jews of Israel 2,000 years ago crucified their own Savior, although it had to be. It was God's plan that His people would consummate His plan of salvation upon the earth. They are His people. He used them to write down His Scriptures. He used them to bring in salvation just as the angel prophesied to Daniel. Israel is God's people and they always have been and they always will be. They are the apple of His eye. However, that doesn't mean that they're perfect and they will only be forgiven their sin by trusting in Jesus. So, a lot of Israel will be lost, just as the Scriptures declare. But I do support Israel's right to exist as a nation and I even believe that their existence today is fulfillment of old covenant prophecy given to Ezekiel and recorded for us in his writing that we now show as chapter 4. I also believe that God wants us to proselytize Israel in the very same way that Paul and many of the first apostles did. But God absolutely loves Israel and so do I!

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
  13. Magillacuddy

    Magillacuddy From the dark, to the light...

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    Not really "arguing" anything with you Ted.

    I already had the sense you think it unfair that Iran can't have nuclear weapons.
     
  14. Magillacuddy

    Magillacuddy From the dark, to the light...

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    Again you do not make yourself clear. I asked you specifically whether you listen to what Israel wants, or you decide you think you know what is best for them. That answer, you made clear enough to me.

    The main reason you are having a tough time communicating is because you dance too much.

    Does Iran and its leaders chant death to America or not?

    If so, and they claim they are ready for war with the big bad Great Satan, then surely you believe it unfair that Iran cannot have nuclear weapons...

    Sorry Ted, that is what you just affirmed to me. I know it sounds weird when I restate it. Perhaps you can restate it yet again, this time keep the paragraphs down to one.
     
  15. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    I see what we are up against.
    M-Bob
     
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