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When I tell believers about God's victorious love and grace, that God through Yeshua "will draw all men" (John 12:32); "all men to justification of life" (Rom. 5:18,19); "in Yeshua shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22-28); "to head up all in the Yeshua" (Eph. 1:10); "That in the name of Yeshua every knee shall bow...every tongue should be acclaiming that Messiah Yeshua is Adonai, for the glory of God" (Phil. 2:10,11); "Who will have all men to be saved" (1 Tim. 2:4); "We have our hope set on the living God Who is the Savior of all men" (1 Tim. 4:10); "The all is created through Him and for Him" and "Through Him to reconcile the all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross" (Col. 1:16, 20). When I declare God's glorious plan to restore all back to Himself, someone asks, "But what about hell?"
Yeshua never used the English word "hell" and He never used any Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic word meaning what most people believe "hell" means. For years I have asked preachers, "How many times is the word "hell" in the Bible, and how many Hebrew and Greek words are translated "hell" in your King James Bible?" None of them answered the question.
That the King James translators did not understand what "Sheol" and "Hades" meant is proven by the following:
"Out of the belly of hell (Sheol) cried I." (Jonah 2:2) Verse 1:17 tells us he was "in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights." Where was Jonah-in Hell or in a fish? If "Sheol" is translated "unseen" we have no problem. Jonah was in the "belly of the fish" and was "unseen." We know that Jonah was "in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights." (Jonah 1:17) This agrees with the words of Jesus, for He said, "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish." (Matt. 12:40) In the Greek Septuagint, (the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek around 200 B.C.) we find the Greek adjective aionios translated "forever" in Jonah 2:6 in the King James Bible. It is obvious that aionios "forever" cannot mean more than three days and three nights.
There is a problem here.
In 1 Cor. 15:55, the King James' Greek text contains the Greek word "Hades." They translated the Greek word "Hades" into the English word "grave," but they gave an alternative translation "Hell" in the margin. In Rev. 20:13,14, The Greek Text contains the word "Hades" which they translated into the English word "Hell." In the margin they put the alternative translation of "grave." It should begin to appear to the objective reader of the King James Bible that the translators were uncertain as to the meaning of the words "Hades" and "Sheol."PHP:The modern reader of a King James Bible printed in this century will not know this because many of the modern editions of the KJV have removed the marginal readings the original King James contained.
"Hades" occurs 11 times in the King's Greek Text (often misnamed "Textus Receptus"). When we study "Hades," let us remember that according to the KJV, Yeshua was in "Hell." (see Acts 2:27, 31) Obviously Yeshua' soul was not in "hell-fire."
Another Greek word "Gehenna" occurs 12 times in the New Testament; 11 times in the Gospels and one time in the Epistle of James. Yeshua used "Gehenna" about 7 times. Some of the occurrences of "Gehenna" are in parallel passages, that is, they refer to the same event. "Gehenna" is the Greek form of the Hebrew "ge-hinnom." It literally means "valley of Hinnom" Sometimes it is referred to as the "valley of the sons of Hinnom." In the Old Testament "Tophet(h)" also refers to this place. (See Young's Concordance under Hinnom) "Gehenna" is a valley that lays on the west and southwest of Jerusalem. In the valley, Israel offered up its children as a burnt offering to a god who came to be known as Moloch.
In Jeremiah, we hear God speaking to Jeremiah regarding this sacrifice, "And they have turned to Me the back, and not the face;though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not listened to receive instruction. but they set their abominations in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." (Jer. 32:33-35) Jeremiah says this valley would one day be called the "Valley of slaughter." (Jer. 7:30-33) This Scripture had its literal fulfillment in 70 A.D. at the destruction of Jerusalem.
King Josiah, in his days, desecrated this place by tearing down all the idols, crushing or burning them, and burning human bones on them (probably those of the priests who presided over these rituals). A Jew was not allowed to touch anything that touched a dead human being. Please note, it was God's own people who were doing the burning, not God, and He said such a thing never entered His mind. Also note, not one single time in the entire Old Testament was this word "Ge-hinnom" translated "hell."
In Yeshua' day, this valley was a city dump very much like modern dumps-always being filled, and therefore always having something for the fire to consume and worms to eat. ("where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.) It was a place fit only for waste. Should a Jew, God's "chosen" people ever be given a burial in "Gehenna," it would be the most humiliating thing that could ever happen to him. It would be like saying that one's life here on earth was completely worthless, fit only for the dump. For Yeshua to tell a religious Jew, such as a Pharisee, that his life, his religious works, his devotion to God were fit only for the city dump, was to insult him in the worst possible way. Jews went to great efforts to make their funerals great events. Some even hired professional "mourners" to cry at their funeral. Herod was going to have the leaders of Israel killed on his day of death so that Israel would mourn on his death. This is the kind of mentality Jews had regarding their life and they way they should leave this world. Even today, one will hear Jews say that the most important thing a person owns is his name. They will go to great lengths to keep their name alive. They will name buildings, start foundations, etc., to keep their name alive. Many, who no longer believe in a resurrection feel this is the only way they can stay alive beyond the grave-to have their name remain in the minds of future generations.
Returning to "Gehenna," one can walk through this valley even today and return unscathed by its fires and untouched by the worms (maggets) which actually consumed a good part of the religious Priestly community of Israel in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Their bodies were piled up and their blood ran down into this very valley which Jesus prophesied would be the disgraceful burial place for hundreds of thousands of Jews of that very generation Yeshua was speaking to.
Whatever this valley represented in the Old Testament must be carried over to the New Testament. Nowhere in the Old Testament is this place translated "Hell" and nowhere in the Old Testament is there a hint that this place referred to a place of eternal punishment after death. The word which Yeshua referred to most often which the King James Bible unfortunately chose to render "hell," in the New Testament, but did not do so in the Old Testament, is this word "Hinnom" or Ge-hinnom (valley of Hinnom) or "Ge-ben-hinnom" (valley of the sons of Hinnom) which was transliterated into the Greek as "gehenna." A thorough study of this place in the Old Testament will dispel much myth regarding its significance. The Scriptural references for such a study are: Josh. 15:8; 18:16; 2 Kings 9:7; 15:3,4; 23:10, 36, 39; Ez. 23:37,39; 2 Chr. 28:3; Lev. 18:21; 20:2; Jer. 7:30-32; 19:2-6; 32:35. Remember, this place is never referred to as "Hell" in the Old Testament. References to this very same place in the New Testament are: Matt. 5:22; 5:29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15; 23:33; Mark 9:43; 9:45; 9:47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. It should be mentioned that most of these references come from Yeshua' mouth and every reference to this word "gehenna" was addressed to God's own people, not to the nations around Israel.
The Greek word "tartarus" occurs one single time in the entire Bible and it is found in 2 Peter 2:4. It is the place where sinning messengers (angels) are reserved unto judgment.
The English word "Hell" occurs 54 times in the King James Bible, and is a translation of 4 Hebrew and Greek words. Not one of the words has a meaning even closely related to the meaning theologians have given the English word "Hell." Many Bibles translated in the last one hundred years do not contain the English word "Hell." Almost all of them have found no justification for translating "Sheol" into "Hell." Therefore, almost all English Bibles do not contain any references to our modern concept of "Hell" in the Old Testament. From Genesis to Malachi, "Hell" has disappeared as a result of better translating. Many Bibles have eliminated the word entirely.
Returning back to the subject of "Hell," we have found that the Hebrew word "Sheol" should never have been translated "Hell." The Jews today, whose Bible consists of the Old Testament do not translate it "Hell" because in no way does "Sheol" correspond with the images and doctrines the church associates with the word "Hell." The Greek word "Hades" is the equivalent of "Sheol" and has the same meaning.
The Greek mythological place the Greeks called "Tartarus" occurs one time in the Biblical text to denote a holding place for messengers (angels) "til" judgment which indicates an eventual release from this place.
Yes, but as Isaiah says... it is the fire that does not extinguish... and once you put other scriptures with this... it makes more sense... just as we see now, so shall we see it when it happens, fire consumes....this is not going to be a painful burning bush story forever. We can be like Daniel's friends and be in the midst of the fire, but it will not consume us, nor will it be painful experience. The wicked are consumed, reduced to ashes as scripture says.
I lost track, which side is this verse supporting?Hebrews 10:27
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
I lost track, which side is this verse supporting?
Okay, that seems logical. I think that sentence literally means "She was angry until the day she died, then we buried her in a deep grave". Is that what you mean?If I said: "Her anger burned fiery hot to the depths of the grave." Is that literal? If it is not logical in real life, then it is a parable.
or Sodom and Gomorrah is our example.Okay, that seems logical. I think that sentence literally means "She was angry until the day she died, then we buried her in a deep grave". Is that what you mean?
I think the literal meaning of "but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fiery indignation, whichshall devour the adversaries" is that the judgment will result in their destruction. Is that what you mean?
I think the Nephilium are the demons, which are different from the fallen angels. You rarely hear of fallen angels wanting to invade bodies, but that is all demons seek. So much so that they would prefer to invade pigs, and fear the judgment day.
IT could also be that demons, devils, and evil angels take longer to be consumed by the flames.
I was going with the thought that if Satan takes the longest to be consumed, cause he is able to walk the hot coals, the his offspring should have some of the same capabilities.Hey Vis,
Messiah teaches that demons are the unclean spirits. So yes, you are correct. There is no place in any scripture that speak of angels that do not already have their own corporeal form (read: physical body). There is no place in all of scripture that speaks of unclean spirits or demon as having their own body. The only place in scripture that teaches of spirits that survive their flesh and remain on earth is in Enoch and in the Brith Chadashah. So the plain meaning of the text is clear. Demons are disembodied spirits that seek to possess living creatures including humans.
As far as how long they take to be consumed by fire, I haven't a clue. There is no clear reference in scripture. My guess is as long as He wants it to take. :shrug:
Okay, that seems logical. I think that sentence literally means "She was angry until the day she died, then we buried her in a deep grave". Is that what you mean?
I think the literal meaning of "but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fiery indignation, whichshall devour the adversaries" is that the judgment will result in their destruction. Is that what you mean?
I was going with the thought that if Satan takes the longest to be consumed, cause he is able to walk the hot coals, the his offspring should have some of the same capabilities.
Based on the language of information posted I surmise that viz cut copy pasted from another's works.Isn't it rather interesting that the place where people met under a roof and therefore "covered," (hall) and the place where people are "six feet under" and therefore "unseen," come from the same word? A church and a grave yard therefore have much in common.
We have found then, that the modern English word "Hell" was originally not a specific region for those eternally damned, as theologians would term it, but a common everyday word which basically meant "covered up" and therefore often "unseen." This word was useful to describe a number of different things.
But as with "Hades," and "Gehenna," a superstitious religious priestcraft used these normal everyday words and concocted images to hold people in their power. They used their deceptive power-hungry minds to tell the ignorant what was in the "unseen" place of the grave (hell).
They created a goddess in charge of affairs in "hell." She was called "Hel." The hole in the ground became a huge underground empire of which she was ruler. The word with a little "h" became a place with a capital "H."
This information I am bringing forth is not hidden away in some ancient monastery. It can be found in almost any book on word origins, regular dictionaries, and encyclopedias. But when Christians have been taught to stick their heads into a "hole" or "hall" called our "church building" and not to look at anything which does not conform to "their" teachings, it leaves most Christians in "gross darkness"-in other words in a "hell" of their own.
A quick tour through the Norse and Germanic mythologies of the goddess Hel and her domain Hell should be a wake up call to any person whose mind is still functioning. The Encyclopedia Britannica tells us of "Hel":
"Hel or Hela, in Scandinavian mythology, goddess of the dead, a child of Loki and the giantess Angurboga, dwelt beneath the roots of the sacred ash, Yggdrasil (q.v.), and ruled the nine worlds of Helheim. In early myth all the dead went to her: in later legend only those who died of old age or sickness; she then became synonymous with suffering and horror." It is common knowledge to anyone who has studied church history even just a little bit, that the Roman Catholic church made it a practice to absorb the pagan traditions of the nations which it tried to covert. She, the Roman Catholic church, by the power she claimed, just Christianized them. From this practice, believers have inherited all the superstitions of the world. Under the word "Hell" they incorporated the mythologies of the Romans, Greeks, Babylonians, Egyptians, Teutons, Druids, and only God knows what else.
While the Scriptures correctly translated have nothing to say about the modern theological concept of "Hell," nor do they speak of "eternal punishment," they do have much to say about "judgment."
Those who believe in "hell" as a place of punishment (although the two words never appear together in the Scriptures, even in mistranslations) do not seem to remember the verse which says Jesus' soul was in "hell" three days and three nights. For what was He being punished? In the KJV at 1 Cor. 15:55, the word translated "grave" in the text is changed to "hell" in the margin, and at Rev. 20:14-15, the word "hell" in the text is changed to "grave" in the marginal reading! Apparently the translators could not make up their minds which word should be used. The word in the text used by the translators of the KJV is hades, meaning "unseen." It means neither "grave" nor "hell."
The evangel, or gospel, contained GOOD NEWS, for that is the meaning of the Greek word euaggelion, good news "which shall be to ALL people" (Luke 2:10). There is little "good news" in condemning the majority of humanity to eternal damnation, or punishment and saving just a few. It is noticeable that those who are so eager to condemn others to "hell" eternally do not include themselves, their families, or their friends in such a fate. Most, however, object to the idea that God loves ALL of mankind. Instead, they believe God loves only those whom He calls, but not the sinners.
Excellently precise.Ah true. But there is fire and then there is His fire...
Thank you for thisDo you know that 'fire' is synonymous with desire? God's desire is like a consuming flame. God's will.
Eating is synonymous with taking in the teaching. - 'Eat this bread, for this is my body'.
And baptizing in water (cleansing the skin) synonymous with our own cleansing of the inside, what is beneath the skin. It is all symbolic.
The smoke that rises for the ages - a witness to what has been 'burned' - the work.
The forbidden fruit - the knowing of wrongdoing and yet pursuing to 'eat' of that tree regardless.
The wheat and the tares - the wholesome thought (good to 'eat of') and the unprofitable thought, which carries no nourishment or makes no 'bread'!.
The trampling of their ashes underfoot - the willful glee when their perishable parts are burned and perished!
Jesus, in the gospel of Thomas, calls desire itself the thing that will 'burn their souls' and fetter them with its bondage, as they succumb to its impulses, like a bit in the mouth leads by its pull.
Jesus says in the same book, 'know yourself, because if you know yourself, you will realize that you all are chilren of God, but if you do not know yourself, you live in poverty, because you are the poverty'.
He says that we all have God within us, so we should honour the God within us. And sinning, is dishonoring.
Jesus says in this same book, those who are alone and who anguish themselves are the ones who will find the kingdom.
Jesus always says 'the first become last' and 'the high become low'. 'When you make the inside like the outside, the outside like the inside, and the high like the low and the low the high, the male and female one so that they are neither male nor female, and put a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot and an image in place of an image, then you will find it'.
Thus, being shown unto ourselves, through our own anguish, we find the truth.
God's desires are neverending. Thus his flame burns eternal; a loving desire.
Our desires on Earth are fleeting, impulse, lusts. Thus they will die with us amidst God's flame. The saved of the Earth are those who bring themselves to relinquish desire before death.
'For I have come to bring a fire on the earth, and oh how I guard it while it kindles'.
this isn't a fire of destruction as we see destruction, but a fire of right-desire and right-will.
those who find it and BAPTIZE themselves in it (clean the inside of the cup rather than just the outside) will be separated, pitted against their brothers and fathers, at odds.
Simply because some must come first. Then last; all by our own will.
Jesus is talking about enlightenment.
For I am the light of the world, and none go to the father's (kingdom) except via me!'
'For those who try to hold on to their self will lose their life, but those who let go of their self for my cause, shall discover it!'
No-one should let what they think is hell be the only reason for faith, then it is not faith. It is still fear of a law of death and destruction, revenge and eye for eye.
Jesus, with God's will, sacrificed himself without ever taking revenge. That is God's idea of justice.
'For God has kept mankind in disobedience that he may have mercy on all'
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