Offending Someone

[JesusWalks78]

And another question: If you go by the use of words in your country, and do not really care whether it is correctly understood by the majority of posters who don´t live in your country, why don´t you post in Fijan all the way? As you say, you don´t have a problem with people misunderstanding you - so that would be the easies way of saying what you want to say and leaving the rest to the audience.

If I posted in Fijian all the way, then no one would understand what I was saying.

If I post "Homo" then you and I both know I am refering to a homosexual...its how you receive the information that is of little importance...but we both know what I am talking about.

If I was to say "Boci" which is a very offensive word in my language it would mean absolutely nothing to you and you would no understand at all.

So to recap...if I said Boci you would have no idea. If I said homo you would understand what i was refering to...how you receive that word is up to you.

BTW I havent forgotten your other post....I am just stewing it a little before I make any response...which I may do in PM if that is alright with you as it may carry over a longer life then this thread.

 

[corvus_corax]

Because a swear word is one that is taken as insult by all parties and meant as an insult by the speaker.

That is only true when it is directed as an insult at another person. I dont know about Fiji, but here in the United States, people swear all the time without necessarily directing insults. Swearing is part of the casual language for many people, and is often used without insult or malice.
If you re-read my earlier post, I quite bluntly stated that I usally use the word in question only as an intensifier in a sentence, and not as an insult.

 

[trunks2k]

So to recap...if I said Boci you would have no idea. If I said homo you would understand what i was refering to...how you receive that word is up to you.

And you are posting on a board on which probably most members would consider "homo" to be meant as a pejorative, no matter how many times you claim you don't intend to use it as such. So why continue to use it?

 

[Moonlight Lady]

And you are posting on a board on which probably most members would consider "homo" to be meant as a pejorative, no matter how many times you claim you don't intend to use it as such. So why continue to use it?

I don't think he'll ever understand that that is everyone's point.




And the fact that he could care less... well, that is my point.

 

[quatona]

If I posted in Fijian all the way, then no one would understand what I was saying.

So you do put some effort in helping people to understand you? I find this hard to reconcile with your earlier statements that people misunderstanding you is not a problem for you.

If I post "Homo" then you and I both know I am refering to a homosexual...its how you receive the information that is of little importance...but we both know what I am talking about.

Let´s not talk about me, let´s talk about the American readers. They understand what this word means in their language - the language you use: You are speaking derogatorily about homosexuals. That, by the point of reference you appeal to, is the meaning of this word.

If I was to say "Boci" which is a very offensive word in my language it would mean absolutely nothing to you and you would no understand at all.

Yes, and no one here would take offense. If you intended to insult someone, you would better pick a word that is understood as such. Likewise, if you want to be understood as using a neutral term, you better pick one that is neutral in the language used.

So to recap...if I said Boci you would have no idea. If I said homo you would understand what i was refering to...how you receive that word is up to you.

I don´t seem to understand that line of reasoning. Why is it up to me how to receive a term in one case, but not in another? Particularly if you use a foreign language, it is reasonable to assume that you use it the way it is commonly used. If you use a language of which you know I don´t know it, I can at least clearly conclude that you don´t care for the way I understand your post. Whilst making the concession of posting in a different language indicates to me that you have an interest in being understood, and hence being misunderstood is a problem for you.

BTW I havent forgotten your other post....I am just stewing it a little before I make any response...which I may do in PM if that is alright with you as it may carry over a longer life then this thread.

Yes, sure, that´s fine with me.

 

[quatona]

I don't think he'll ever understand that that is everyone's point.
And the fact that he could care less... well, that is my point.

Then again, we could simply draw the consequences from his carelessness about his own message. If even he himself doesn´t find it worth putting effort in making it understood, why putting any effort in trying to understand it?

 

[JesusWalks78]

That is only true when it is directed as an insult at another person. I dont know about Fiji, but here in the United States, people swear all the time without necessarily directing insults. Swearing is part of the casual language for many people, and is often used without insult or malice.
If you re-read my earlier post, I quite bluntly stated that I usally use the word in question only as an intensifier in a sentence, and not as an insult.

Yeah sorry about that, I didnt realise what you were trying to say.

 

[JesusWalks78]

If you have indeed said something without malice or insult, yet you still unwittingly offend the other person, and in finding this out your immediate response is that you could care less how that person felt, that they should just "get over it".... well, that is in fact showing absolutely no love for your brother.... no love, no compassion, no charity.


And the fact that you don't already know this is my point exactly. Adieu.

You have yet to show that I have "absolutely" no love for my brother.

Untill you do all your putting out is gibberish.

Moce.

 

[JesusWalks78]

And you are posting on a board on which probably most members would consider "homo" to be meant as a pejorative, no matter how many times you claim you don't intend to use it as such. So why continue to use it?

Because I dont use it as a pejorative.

 

[JesusWalks78]

I don't think he'll ever understand that that is everyone's point.




And the fact that he could care less... well, that is my point.

More gibberish.

Please prove that I care less. If I meant to insult I would pick harsher words...istead of a shortened form of a longer version of a name that is acceptable to everyone.

 

[quatona]

Because I dont use it as a pejorative.

Please describe your feelings when being misunderstood as being derogatory.

 

[trunks2k]

Because I dont use it as a pejorative.

Then don't complain if people think you are using it as a pejorative. You are responsible for making yourself clear to the people you are communicating with. You have been told by several people how the word will be taken by most of the people reading this board. So you have no room to complain if people take your use of the word in a way you did not intend.

But I'll say it again. By using the word "homo" you are doing nothing but a disservice to your own position. Why you would choose to use "homo" where a different, shorter word would achieve your intended goal and not confuse your intentions is beyond me. But to each their own.

 

[JesusWalks78]

So you do put some effort in helping people to understand you? I find this hard to reconcile with your earlier statements that people misunderstanding you is not a problem for you.

People misunderstand me whether I speak in english or not.

Let´s not talk about me, let´s talk about the American readers. They understand what this word means in their language - the language you use:

I speak english, the quens english...they speak American which while english at its core is different.

You are speaking derogatorily about homosexuals. That, by the point of reference you appeal to, is the meaning of this word.

Then it is an American problem.

Yes, and no one here would take offense. If you intended to insult someone, you would better pick a word that is understood as such.

I would the word gay here is the derogatory word...along with other such as poofter, poo jabber to name a few that I have heard.

I have never and will never refer to a homo in that manner. I find that offensive. I do not find the word homo offensive and neither do the homos in Fiji (well the ones I deal with, and thats alot of them).

Likewise, if you want to be understood as using a neutral term, you better pick one that is neutral in the language used.

The term is neutral to me, so why should I not use it?

I don´t seem to understand that line of reasoning. Why is it up to me how to receive a term in one case, but not in another?

Because you wouldnt understand at all what a Boci is...but when I say homo you know who I am refering to. Its not up to you to receive one and not the other...you cant receive one because it isnt a language you understand.

Particularly if you use a foreign language, it is reasonable to assume that you use it the way it is commonly used.

Correct...and the term homo is commonly used in Fiji as a non derogatory word.

If you use a language of which you know I don´t know it, I can at least clearly conclude that you don´t care for the way I understand your post. Whilst making the concession of posting in a different language indicates to me that you have an interest in being understood, and hence being misunderstood is a problem for you.

no it isnt a problem...I say what I say...how you receive it and if you want to get al;l upset about it...well thats up to you.

 

[JesusWalks78]

Please describe your feelings when being misunderstood as being derogatory.

Why should there be any emotions.

What do you mean emotions...I am not an emotional kind of guy.

 

[JesusWalks78]

Then don't complain if people think you are using it as a pejorative.

I dont...I am merely pointing out that insult is in the intent.

You are responsible for making yourself clear to the people you are communicating with.

I do...when I say homo do you understand I am talking about homosexuals?

You have been told by several people how the word will be taken by most of the people reading this board. So you have no room to complain if people take your use of the word in a way you did not intend.

I wont.

But I'll say it again. By using the word "homo" you are doing nothing but a disservice to your own position.

What position is that?

Why you would choose to use "homo" where a different, shorter word would achieve your intended goal and not confuse your intentions is beyond me. But to each their own.

I did use the word gay on this bord...but it is a derogatory term in Fiji, not so much in the forman language....but in the informal language on the street in the homes etc so I was never very comfortable using it.

 

[quatona]

Why should there be any emotions.

What do you mean emotions...I am not an emotional kind of guy.

Just for the record: I didn´t say emotions, I said feelings.
I don´t consider myself a particularly emotional guy either, but e.g. when I notice my methods don´t fit my purpose, I will change something. That´s why I find feedback from the persons I deal with helpful, and don´t handwave it away with a "well that´s their problem". I consider it my problem, because my methods are not successful.

 

[quatona]

People misunderstand me whether I speak in english or not.

If that is the premise and the cop-out you escape to anyways - why do you speak at all?

I speak english, the quens english...they speak American which while english at its core is different.

So you speak a different language. In which case what you have said about using Fiji words applies here, too.

Then it is an American problem.

What would you describe as the problem?
In my book the speaker is the active person. He demonstrates an intention, a goal, a purposes by speaking. If he doesn´t succeed in it, he has a problem.
If there is a conflict between two persons, both have a problem, always.

I would the word gay here is the derogatory word...along with other such as poofter, poo jabber to name a few that I have heard.

Then I would recommend you not to use it where you are. But you are somewhere else when posting on an international forum.

I have never and will never refer to a homo in that manner. I find that offensive. I do not find the word homo offensive and neither do the homos in Fiji (well the ones I deal with, and thats alot of them).

I think you would have to make up your mind:
- Are there terms that are per se offensive?
- If no, who decides whether a term is offensive?
Since language is a means of contact (and not of remaining isolated), it would be a good idea to get over the "I don´t mean it as such, and therefore it isn´t, and the rest is none of my business" attitude. It simply doesn´t do justice to what communication is about and how it works.

The term is neutral to me, so why should I not use it?

What do you want to communicate when using it? Is your message understood? If the answer to the second question is "no" (and it is in this case, else this entire discussion wouldn´t have come about), there is a gap between your goal and the result. When finding myself in such a situation I tend to consider changing my methods. Ymmv.

Because you wouldnt understand at all what a Boci is...but when I say homo you know who I am refering to. Its not up to you to receive one and not the other...you cant receive one because it isnt a language you understand.

The american posters here don´t understand you Fijan "Queens English". That´s why the problem we discuss is there.

Correct...and the term homo is commonly used in Fiji as a non derogatory word.

But we are not on the Fiji Islands, but on an international message board with a vast majority of American posters.

no it isnt a problem...I say what I say...

If all you want is say something (without any further interest like the message being understood) - why don´t you go out to the woods and talk to the trees?

how you receive it and if you want to get al;l upset about it...well thats up to you.

Don´t be funny. I am not upset, and I don´t want to be all upset. Do you see anything in my posts indicating this? Where? I need to know such things because I for one don´t like to be misunderstood.

My concern is not so much your use of these words, but the complete lack of interest in communication while being on a board exactly dedicated for this purpose, the complete lack of interest in what happens to your message, and the complete lack of interest in the persons opposite, that you keep affirming for a couple of pages now. It appears to be paradox to me.

 

[JesusWalks78]

Just for the record: I didn´t say emotions, I said feelings.
I don´t consider myself a particularly emotional guy either, but e.g. when I notice my methods don´t fit my purpose, I will change something. That´s why I find feedback from the persons I deal with helpful, and don´t handwave it away with a "well that´s their problem". I consider it my problem, because my methods are not successful.

If I say "Homo" do you know who I am talking about?

 

[JesusWalks78]

If that is the premise and the cop-out you escape to anyways - why do you speak at all?

Because I can.

Because I can communicate...like when i say homo youknow what I am talking about.

Why do you speak at all?




So you speak a different language. In which case what you have said about using Fiji words applies here, too.

What would you describe as the problem?

Taking insult, where none is intended.

In my book the speaker is the active person. He demonstrates an intention, a goal, a purposes by speaking. If he doesn´t succeed in it, he has a problem.
If there is a conflict between two persons, both have a problem, always.

Lets say that I wanted to say that homosexuals all liked the colour blue.

I could say "Homos like the colour blue"

The content is the same (no derogatory intent). Yet the americam will see it and want it to be changed....when really there is nothing to be changed.

Then I would recommend you not to use it where you are. But you are somewhere else when posting on an international forum.

I could also say that the Americans should not get to make the rules as to what is insulting or not on an international board., based on American culture.

I think you would have to make up your mind:
- Are there terms that are per se offensive?
- If no, who decides whether a term is offensive?
Since language is a means of contact (and not of remaining isolated), it would be a good idea to get over the "I don´t mean it as such, and therefore it isn´t, and the rest is none of my business" attitude. It simply doesn´t do justice to what communication is about and how it works.

Lets say a person picked up a knife and planned to kill his spouse and carried out his plan.

Lets look at the man who accidentaly ran over a kid (by accidentally I mean he had no intentionor plan).

In both scenarios someone got killed. Yet in only one was there intent and the other there was not. Would you class them both in the same way...I wouldnt?

So intent is everything.

What do you want to communicate when using it?

The term refers to homosexuals.

Is your message understood?

Yes when I use it, people know who I mean.

If the answer to the second question is "no" (and it is in this case, else this entire discussion wouldn´t have come about), there is a gap between your goal and the result. When finding myself in such a situation I tend to consider changing my methods. Ymmv.

Whats Ymmv?

Secondly my intent is to communicate in a way that every one understand my words...everyone understands that homo is another word for homosexual, so understanding is not the problem.

The american posters here don´t understand you Fijan "Queens English". That´s why the problem we discuss is there.

Fijian is Fijian...the queens english is the proper english spoken in Britain.

But we are not on the Fiji Islands, but on an international message board with a vast majority of American posters.

So why do they get to make rules with there countries culture? Are the Americans more special that the Fijians?

If all you want is say something (without any further interest like the message being understood) - why don´t you go out to the woods and talk to the trees?

The message is understood...I refer you back to the Homos like blue example.

Its what they add to the message that is the problem.

Don´t be funny. I am not upset, and I don´t want to be all upset.

If your not upset, then why are you posting so much about it?

My concern is not so much your use of these words, but the complete lack of interest in communication while being on a board exactly dedicated for this purpose, the complete lack of interest in what happens to your message, and the complete lack of interest in the persons opposite, that you keep affirming for a couple of pages now. It appears to be paradox to me.

I am not touchy feely, nor am I overly PC...i say what i say, people understand it, if they didnt they wouldnt get upset about it. So the understanding and the communication exist.

 

[Adriac]

I am not touchy feely, nor am I overly PC...i say what i say, people understand it, if they didnt they wouldnt get upset about it. So the understanding and the communication exist.

Except it doesn't. You have given many, including myself, the impression that you do not respect homosexuals—[wash my mouth]an impression which continues despite the fact that you have stated that no disrespect is intended.

Clearly there is some error in communication here, be it accidental or deliberate.