Yes. No.
He is, but it seems he is not doing so. It appears they ceased shortly after the apostolic age. And if the charismatic gifts have ceased as the bible said they would, nowhere does it say they would later return.
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Of the following spiritual gifts, which ones are still available and which ones have ceased?
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Yes. No.
He is, but it seems he is not doing so. It appears they ceased shortly after the apostolic age. And if the charismatic gifts have ceased as the bible said they would, nowhere does it say they would later return.
Guojing
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Philippians 4:6-7 had Paul instructing us to do that, but notice healing was not promised by Paul, but rather "the peace of God"?
I felt it was most interesting that, the immediate sermon that Bill Johnson preached at Bethel, after Beni finally went home to the Lord after her cancer, was about this verse too.
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Can you be more specific? Matthew 13:1-23 says nothing about atheists, especially atheists with a very strong understanding of philosophy, logical reasoning, science, skepticism, etc. How does Matthew 13:1-13 apply to such atheists?
Quoting Merrian-Webster dictionary's definition of "bible" is not a proof. Merrian-Webster was founded in 1831. 2 Timothy is estimated to have been written between 90 and 140 AD (source). You still need to prove that the author of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 had Merrian-Webster dictionary's definition of "bible" in mind. Otherwise, this anachronistic reference is pointless.
How do you determine what is scripture and what isn't?
How about praying to receive/experience charismatic gifts?
14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. (Mark 16:14 ESV)
Non sequitur. Yes, the gifts are distributed according to the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit, but from this it does not follow that charismatic gifts cannot be obtained by asking. Both ideas are not incompatible. There is no logical contradiction between the two. It could very well be the case that a person's free will plays a role in how the Holy Spirit decides to distribute gifts. For example, it could be the case that the Holy Spirit sovereignly decides to grant specific gifts in response to prayer (plus other considerations, which would depend on a case-by-case basis). This would be similar to the concept of synergism (i.e. some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom).
Relevant passages:
- Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy (1 Corinthians 14:1 ESV)
- So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. (1 Corinthians 14:39 ESV)
- 7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! (Matthew 7:7-11 ESV)
- 29 And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30 while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness. (Acts 4:29-31 ESV)
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What about all the testimonies to the contrary?
Why do you think so?
Sure, but this relies on the IF part being true ("if the charismatic gifts have ceased ..."). If they haven't, this remark is irrelevant.
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I would say they fall into the category of the seed falling along the path.... "When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it....". They do not understand the gospel. For them the gospel is foolishness. "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18
Yes it is proof. Paul used the term 'All scripture'. The Bible is the name we give to the whole collection of scripture - ie "All scripture", the same term.
All other dictionaries give that same definition for Bible. If you think their definition is wrong, you'll have to take it up with them.
What was the process of deciding on the New Testament canon? | GotQuestions.org
As I've already said, gifts are not given by asking.
Should Mark 16:9-20 be in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
Scripture says gifts are given to a person at conversion (1 Cor 12:7), not later in their Christian life. I don't see anywhere that says that additional gifts can be later requested and acquired. You can ask for a gift you fancy until you are blue in the face, but if the Holy Spirit has already determined what your gift is, you are not going to get it. That is the whole thrust of the analogy of gifts to body parts in 1 Cor 12. "If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as He wanted them to be". Just as He wanted, not as we want.
When Paul exhorted the Corinthians to "desire" prophecy in Ch14, he wasn't saying that individuals are to request the gift for themselves. If so, he would have commanded that each of them pray to receive prophecy, not "desire" it. Desiring wouldn't be the goal, obtaining would be. No, he was asking them to desire prophecy IN THEIR ASSEMBLY (that is the context of chapter 14) rather than speaking unintelligible foreign tongues which do not edify anyone.
That passage doesn't mean you can ask for anything you fancy and God will give it to you.
That passage says nothing about praying for new gifts....."grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness..."
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- In what sense is the gospel misunderstood by atheists?
- In what sense is it foolishness for them?
- Can you share an example of a typical misunderstanding by atheists and how this misunderstanding could be corrected?
- Do you believe that, by correcting these misunderstandings, an atheist would obtain faith?
This is a text-book example of the well-known fallacy of equivocation.
- 2 Timothy 3:16 talks about "every scripture that is inspired ..." without delimiting a canon (see commentaries here 2 Timothy 3:16 Commentaries: All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;)
- In contrast, dictionaries such as Merrian-Webster talk about "a set of scriptures that are conventionally believed to be inspired".
Merrian-Webster dictionary presents this definition of "Bible": the sacred scriptures of Christians comprising the Old Testament and the New Testament
2 Timothy 3:16 says nothing about an "Old Testament" and a "New Testament". 2 Timothy 3:16 does not have 19th century's conventions in mind.
At best from 2 Timothy 3:16 you could make this case: If a text is inspired by God, then it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
This is a conditional statement (IF -> THEN, if inspired, then useful). Therefore, in order to prove that 2 Timothy 3:16 and Merrian-Webster dictionary are talking about the same thing, you would need to:
- clarify what specific manuscripts you mean by "Old Testament" and "New Testament",
- prove that those manuscripts are divinely inspired,
- prove that no other manuscripts are divinely inspired.
Very briefly, the article presents 3 reasons:
- Apostolic Authority
- Orthodox Doctrine
- Broad-Based Acceptance
Do you find these arguments compelling? Do you really claim to be sure that these manuscripts are divinely inspired based on apologetic arguments? Yes? No? Why?
Do you trust arguments from apologetics after all?
What are arguments for the divine inspiration of the longer ending of Mark (Mark 16:9-20)?
- Do You Pray for Spiritual Gifts? Here are Two… | Zondervan Academic
- Why We Must Earnestly Desire Spiritual Gifts
- How does God distribute spiritual gifts? | GotQuestions.org
The word "conversion" is nowhere to be found in 1 Cor 12.
Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. (1 Corinthians 14:13 ESV)
There is no reason to think that the same idea could not be extended to other spiritual gifts, especially when Paul explicitly exhorts Christians to earnestly desire them.
From Why We Must Earnestly Desire Spiritual Gifts:
What Does Earnestly Desiring Spiritual Gifts Look Like?
Earnestly desiring the spiritual gifts looks like desiring them.
For the most part, the Bible is not a how-to manual. It holds out treasure to us and bids us to seek it out (Proverbs 2:4–5). Desire is the test, for desire fuels the quest. That is a key to understanding much in the Bible.
What do you do when you really want something? You don’t wait around for someone to deliver it nicely packaged, fully assembled, and ready-to-use. You go looking for it. You start asking questions of knowledgeable people. You read and watch and listen to a lot of information. You ask, seek, and knock (Matthew 7:7). If you really, really want it, you consider it worth the hard work of figuring things out and working till you get it.
That’s what earnestly desiring spiritual gifts looks like. But here are a few things for starters:
Begin with the Bible. Soak in 1 Corinthians 12–14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. Read the book of Acts over and over until it ruins you for your worldly comfort and pursuits and fuels your desire to experience the reality of the kingdom you read there.
Pray. If you’re ruined for anything less than knowing the fullness of the Spirit and seeing the kingdom of God advance, your discontent and desperation will drive you to pray the kind of prayers the Lord loves to answer.
Consume Sound Teaching and Testimonies. These will fuel your desire as well as increase your knowledge. To find more helpful resources, type “Spiritual Gifts” into our search box. And read and listen to men like Sam Storms, Wayne Grudem, D.A. Carson, Tope Koleoso, and Terry Virgo who skillfully handle the Word and are personally experienced in the spiritual gifts.
Meet a Need. The spiritual gifts are not fireworks for our oohs and aahs. They are mainly given as means to extend love and the grace of God to others. Taking steps for the sake of Christ to love others whose needs extend beyond our capacities puts us (and them) squarely in the path of God’s grace. When we’ve asked God to help us walk on water, we must then get out of the boat.
Earnestly desiring the spiritual gifts looks like desiring them.
For the most part, the Bible is not a how-to manual. It holds out treasure to us and bids us to seek it out (Proverbs 2:4–5). Desire is the test, for desire fuels the quest. That is a key to understanding much in the Bible.
What do you do when you really want something? You don’t wait around for someone to deliver it nicely packaged, fully assembled, and ready-to-use. You go looking for it. You start asking questions of knowledgeable people. You read and watch and listen to a lot of information. You ask, seek, and knock (Matthew 7:7). If you really, really want it, you consider it worth the hard work of figuring things out and working till you get it.
That’s what earnestly desiring spiritual gifts looks like. But here are a few things for starters:
Begin with the Bible. Soak in 1 Corinthians 12–14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. Read the book of Acts over and over until it ruins you for your worldly comfort and pursuits and fuels your desire to experience the reality of the kingdom you read there.
Pray. If you’re ruined for anything less than knowing the fullness of the Spirit and seeing the kingdom of God advance, your discontent and desperation will drive you to pray the kind of prayers the Lord loves to answer.
Consume Sound Teaching and Testimonies. These will fuel your desire as well as increase your knowledge. To find more helpful resources, type “Spiritual Gifts” into our search box. And read and listen to men like Sam Storms, Wayne Grudem, D.A. Carson, Tope Koleoso, and Terry Virgo who skillfully handle the Word and are personally experienced in the spiritual gifts.
Meet a Need. The spiritual gifts are not fireworks for our oohs and aahs. They are mainly given as means to extend love and the grace of God to others. Taking steps for the sake of Christ to love others whose needs extend beyond our capacities puts us (and them) squarely in the path of God’s grace. When we’ve asked God to help us walk on water, we must then get out of the boat.
What about the request for healing, signs and wonders?
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30 while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.
They are praying for more manifestations of the sign gifts. This is the polar opposite of the attitude of cessationists.
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@swordsman1 - looking forward to the next round of rebuttals
You know what, I think I'm going to leave it there. It seems to me this is becoming just a game of one-upmanship, about who trips the other person up on all sorts of different subjects - which is not good and I can't really be bothered with it to be honest.
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You know what, I think I'm going to leave it there. It seems to me this is becoming just a game of one-upmanship, about who trips the other person up on all sorts of different subjects - which is not good and I can't really be bothered with it to be honest.
As you said to JAL on the other thread: "I'll take that as an admission of defeat."
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We are not commissioned to convince atheists of the truth of God's Word or the Gospel. Our role is to declare the Gospel whether they choose to believe it or not. If we share the Gospel with atheists and they choose not to believe it, there is no failure on our part. We have done what we are commanded to do.
Also, the unbelieving Pharisees saw all the miracles of Christ, and these did not convince them, and they put Jesus to death. Not even the raising of Lazarus from the dead inspired faith in Christ in them. They not only plotted to put Jesus to death, but Lazarus also.
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The problem with modern application of the spiritual gifts is that there is a lot of teaching and speech-making about them, and much arguing on the threads in the forum, but not much demonstration of the true gifts. All the NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) prophets were proved wrong when none of them have been able to predict any of the significant national and world events that have occurred in the last three years. Most of the prominent healing evangelists, in spite of the preaching and promises, are unable to produce any evidence of verified healing of serious disease or disability through medical records. And the Bethel school of supernatural ministry had to close because most of the staff and students contract Covid. All the examples of tongues that I have seen by the Glory of Zion circus performers and Prosperity male and female preachers sound nothing like articulate languages to me, but rather just random, unconnected sounds copied from each other. And "word of knowledge" preachers are seen getting their information about people from social media on their iPads which they are holding. Benny Hinn, Todd White, Kenneth Copeland and Bill Johnson know that they cannot fulfill their promises of healing; that is why they avoid having serious patients and disabled folk on their stages for prayer. They divert their really sick and disabled folk to other rooms so they don't have to show the people that they can't demonstrate any real healing for them.You know what, I think I'm going to leave it there. It seems to me this is becoming just a game of one-upmanship, about who trips the other person up on all sorts of different subjects - which is not good and I can't really be bothered with it to be honest.
I understand the Cessationist position, because although I am a "restorationist" as far as the gifts are concerned, over the more than 50 years as a Christian, I haven't seen much demonstration of them in spite of all the teaching from platforms, pulpits and books about the gifts. That is the "elephant in the room" for me. I think the answer is that there are so many phonies and fakes pretending to manifest the gifts, that the water is so muddied, the genuine cannot be seen.
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I could quite easily carry on with the rebuttals, but as I said it seems to be turning into a game of one-upmanship. If you want to declare yourself the winner, that's fine by me.
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I don't see it as a game. I was actually seeing progress in our discussion. We were now diving deeper into (1) your epistemology on how you determine what is scripture and what isn't (while simultaneously rejecting apologetics as unconvincing), (2) how an atheist, in your view, would be able to transition into faith and (3) the validity of praying for spiritual gifts.
But if you see it as a game and are tired of it, well, there isn't much I can do about it.
Good game, well played (or ggwp, as they would say in the gaming lore).
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I came looking for you because you might appreciate this. In the early hours of the morning I had a revelation! I was prayerfully meditating concerning the prophetic and examining what Paul said about it, and what he didn't say. I know that you don't accept that the gift of prophecy is active today, but that is not important right now.You know what, I think I'm going to leave it there. It seems to me this is becoming just a game of one-upmanship, about who trips the other person up on all sorts of different subjects - which is not good and I can't really be bothered with it to be honest.
I got thinking about the Kansas City Prophets who evolved into the NAR and how they have set themselves up as the five-fold ministry of NT Prophet for today. As I thought about them, it appeared to me that they were acting as "pastoral" prophets as described in 1 Corinthians 14 and that the office of NT Prophet was somehow different.
Then it came to me that John the Baptizer was a Prophet to the Jews and called them to repentance. I wondered that the NT Prophet could be someone whose office is to call the Church to repentance. We surely need someone like John the Baptizer to speak out against these false prosperity teachers and prophets who are corrupting large areas of the Church. I then viewed a sermon by David Wilkerson. Then I realised that here was a true NT Prophet calling out the Church to repent, believe the Gospel and come out from the world to walk in holiness before the Lord. I then thought of Leonard Ravenhill who wrote "Why Revival Tarries" and saw the same call for repentance. Just before I viewed Paul Washer, and he was the same. These men have convinced me that the office of NT Prophet, along with the Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher are still active in today's church. It showed me that the NAR's claim of the Prophetic office is a fraud because they are prophesying nonsense and are not fulfilling the Scriptural role of NT Prophet.
We need men of God to rise up and preach conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment to come, to bring unction in the pulpit so there is action in the pew. We need men like Elijah, and Micaiah who stood up against falsehood and idolatry even at the risk of their own lives. This is why I now believe that the NT Prophet is still active in our modern body of Christ. We badly need them if the Church is going to be the body of Christ it should be.
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Although they have done a good job of calling out sin and false teaching in the Church, I wouldn't classify David Wilkerson and the others you mention as true prophets. A true prophet would be someone who hears God speak actual words in a dream or a vision (Num 12:6, Num 24:16, Isa 6:8, Ezek 1:28, Ezek 2:1-3, Isa 6:8, ) who then passes the message onto the intended recipient(s). The process is described in 1 Sam 3 when the boy Samuel started prophesying, and throughout scripture prophecies are prefixed with something like "Thus says the Lord....", followed by the precise words God spoke. If the Lord didn't really say those words then scripture is lying. And that same process is also true of NT prophecy (Acts 21:11, Acts 22:14, Rev 1:10-11). I see nowhere in scripture where prophecy is described as having a strong feeling, or an inward impression, or God laying something on your heart. You don't have to be a cessationist to see that the vast majority of supposed prophecies today do not match the biblical description of prophecy, and the tiny minority that do claim their prophecies were received audibly are no doubt deluded.
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I agree with you that the majority of those who call themselves Prophets are nothing of the sort. All you have to do is to analyse the prophecies on Youtube to see that their prophecies are "nothing burgers" that don't say anything intelligible, especially in that gather where people are waving coloured flags and a guy who looks like Santa Claus gives a dramatic prophecy that says nothing.
The example for me for a true NT Prophet is John the Baptizer. He never had any visions or anything mystical. He called the Jews to repentance. I know that the OT prophets received the direct word of God in different ways. We can apply a hard and fast formula. Isaiah saw the Lord high and lifted up, Exekiel had visions, Jeremiah received the word in his heart. There is no record that Elijah or Micaiah had visions or how they received the word.
It is the content of their preaching that determines whether they are Prophets or not. The characteristic of a Prophet is that their message is one of calling a nation (Israel) or the church to forsake their idols, repent and turn back to the Lord. The NAR prophets don't do that therefore they cannot be true prophets. My conclusion about them is not based on the definition of one random word in 1 Corinthians 13 ("perfect") given a meaning that is totally different from every other mention of perfection in the Bible, that purports that the gift of prophecy has ceased. A more reliable way of evaluating whether a person is a Prophet or not is based on more certain criteria, and people like Leonard Ravenhill and Paul Washer better fit the criteria than the Kansas City prophets and the many other self-styled prophets we see on Youtube.
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John the Baptist was a prophet because he proclaimed the coming Messiah and specifically identified Jesus as that person. How did he get that information? John tells us that God verbally told him and quotes the exact words God said, just like all the other prophets....
John 1:33 the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’
Isaiah received his prophecies verbally...
2 Kings 19:6 This is what the Lord says: "Do not be afraid of what you have heard....
2 Kings 19:20 This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: "I have heard your prayer concerning Sennacherib king of Assyria...
2 Kings 20:1 This is what the Lord says: "Put your house in order...
Isaiah 8:5-6 The Lord spoke to me again: “Because this people has rejected....
etc
etc
Ezekiel received his prophecies verbally...Ezek 1:28-2:1 When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking. He said: “Son of man, I am sending you to the Israelites,.....
Ezek 5:5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: "This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her.
Ezek 6:1-3 The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, set your face against the mountains of Israel; prophesy against them and say: ‘You mountains of Israel,
etc
etc
What verse are you referring to when you say Jeremiah received the word in his heart? All I can see is God speaking verbally to him...Jer 1:7 But the Lord said to me, “Do not say, ‘I am too young.’ You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you.
Jer 2:1 The word of the Lord came to me: “Go and proclaim
Jer 3:11 The Lord said to me, “Faithless Israel is more righteous than unfaithful Judah. Go, proclaim this message....
etc
etc
God spoke verbally to Elijah...
1 Kings 18:1 the word of the Lord came to Elijah: “Go and present yourself to Ahab....
1 Kings 19:13 Then a voice said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”
1 Kings 21:17 Then the word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite: “Go down to meet
2 Kings 1:15 The angel of the Lord said to Elijah, “Go down with him;
etc
etc
God spoke verbally to Micah....
Micah 1:1-2 The word of the Lord that came to Micah of Moresheth during the reigns of Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah—the vision he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem. "Hear, you peoples, all of you,
Micah 2:3 Therefore, the Lord says: “I am planning disaster against this people,
Micah 3:5 This is what the Lord says: “As for the prophets who lead my people astray,
etc
etc
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You obviously haven't read what Paul said: "How will they hear without a preacher, and how can someone preach unless they are sent?"
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