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OEC and Local Flood

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
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As I recall, the ark came to rest in the mountains of Ararat. Mountains are rather tall rocky formations that tower thousands of feet above sea level. Mt Ararat, for example, is just under 17,000 feet high. The ark is thought to have come to rest some 13,000 feet atop the mountain.

Major, major assumption here. How do you know that the Ark is on Mt. Ararat? If you're talking about the 2010 expedition that "found" some wood that dated to 4800 years old, allow me to point you to this blog, written by a creationist no less, that explains exactly why it couldn't be the Ark.

On that topic, having seen the Colorado River at the bottom of the Grand Canyon, seeing how slow and shallow it is and understanding that it couldn't have carved through that rock in a hundred billion years because it simply doesn't have the mass, what would convince me would be the enormous delta at the mouth where all the sediment was deposited. Wait... it doesn't exist. Shoot! Another "scientific" theory shot down!
1) Did you actually hike to the bottom of the Grand Canyon, or did you just look down? Because it's actually still a pretty wild river, despite all the dams. It's also not all that shallow - one spot in the Grand Canyon is about 110 feet deep.

Disaster in Lava - A rapid in the Grand Canyon - YouTube

2) Did I mention the dams? They severely restrict the flow of the river. The video I posted above was from a release event, but that's still significantly lower flow than a un-dammed Colorado River flood. The dams also trap 99% of the sediment coming downstream. Sediment, not water, is responsible for the majority of river erosion (think of it like a belt sander).
 
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freezerman2000

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What makes you think that an omnipotent God would be bound by the natural laws of the world He created? For that matter, why would the Grand Canyon need to be carved at all? It COULD HAVE been carved by receding flood waters, or it could have been created as it is because God wanted it that way. The thing about being omnipotent is that you don't have to follow any laws but your own. You notice that everything was created in it's mature state. Adam was not a baby. The trees were created in bloom. Fish and whales were already adults when they were spoken into existence. If God created a mature world, capable of supporting life, how could there be any evidence of a young world?

The light from a star can take a thousand years to make it to earth, yet the light from that star was visible the instant it was created. Why? Because God made it that way.

1 question:Can God break the very laws that He imposed on His creation? If he can, I'm not sure that He is a God I can truly worship.
He is bound by the very laws He imposed.
BTW, I am an Old Earth TE
 
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Keachian

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1 question:Can God break the very laws that He imposed on His creation? If he can, I'm not sure that He is a God I can truly worship.
He is bound by the very laws He imposed.
BTW, I am an Old Earth TE

I think the problem is more the recognising of the natural as those things which are the consistent acts of God. To limit God to only acting in those ways means that he cannot step into creation as we believe he did ~2000 years ago.
 
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Dieselman

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1 question:Can God break the very laws that He imposed on His creation? If he can, I'm not sure that He is a God I can truly worship.
He is bound by the very laws He imposed.
BTW, I am an Old Earth TE
So your definition of God is an entity incapable of performing miracles, because He is bound by the natural law He created?
So angels, being supernatural and contrary to the laws of physics, do not exist?
So the son of God could not die and rise from the grave because it's not scientifically possible?

You believe in a strange god; impotent, not omnipotent.
 
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Dieselman

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Major, major assumption here. How do you know that the Ark is on Mt. Ararat?
The Bible says "Mountains of Ararat," not any specific mountain.
Sediment, not water, is responsible for the majority of river erosion (think of it like a belt sander).
Then there should be a major delta at the base of the river, which does not exist. Of course, a global flood would have sufficient pressures to carve the canyon as well. In the case of a major receding of water it's more likely to be drawn out into the depths of the ocean.
 
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Keachian

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freezerman2000

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So your definition of God is an entity incapable of performing miracles, because He is bound by the natural law He created?
So angels, being supernatural and contrary to the laws of physics, do not exist?
So the son of God could not die and rise from the grave because it's not scientifically possible?

You believe in a strange god; impotent, not omnipotent.

Could God create everything mature?That is going against the Laws of nature..Laws He imposed.
Show me ONE law of nature that states that it is possible for something to come into existence already mature..Even Christ started life as a baby.He didn't just appear as a fully grown man...Why? It is not part of the natural process. THAT is what I was talking about.
 
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Keachian

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Could God create everything mature?That is going against the Laws of nature..Laws He imposed.
Show me ONE law of nature that states that it is possible for something to come into existence already mature..Even Christ started life as a baby.He didn't just appear as a fully grown man...Why? It is not part of the natural process. THAT is what I was talking about.

If that is what you're talking about, calling it Last-thursdayism/omphalos hypothesis is more fitting to your argument.
 
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RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
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The Bible says "Mountains of Ararat," not any specific mountain.
So why so specific about the elevation then? From what I've read, it could also be translated as "hills," which don't have to be very high at all. In short, your argument that it couldn't be a local flood because the Ark wound up at 13,000 feet is bogus. No one has any idea where the Ark really landed, or at what elevation.

Then there should be a major delta at the base of the river, which does not exist. Of course, a global flood would have sufficient pressures to carve the canyon as well. In the case of a major receding of water it's more likely to be drawn out into the depths of the ocean.
As I pointed out in my first post (the one you quoted was my second), the Colorado River does, in fact, have a delta. It's not quite so large and spread out as the Mississippi delta due to several factors that I can explain if you're interested, but it is still there. Check it out on Google Earth if you don't believe me. Or just read progmonk's link.
 
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Dieselman

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In short, your argument that it couldn't be a local flood because the Ark wound up at 13,000 feet is bogus.
I have no idea at what elevation the ark landed, only that the mountains were covered, so if a mountain was 13,000 feet high then the water was 13,000 feet deep. The mountains could well have been 8,000 feet high prior to seismic activity after the flood, but the point made is that they were covered by water, regardless of elevation. The flood was global. It killed all land creatures not on the ark. Presumably the intent was to get off the boat, so it would make sense that it would rest fairly high up in the mountains instead of in a valley somewhere.

Does the ark still exist? Maybe. Rumored sightings are intriguing, but I sincerely doubt we will ever know. Finding the ark would get seriously close to proving that God is real, and removing the element of faith removes our pathway to salvation. My guess is that the ark was dismantled for shelter, but I wasn't there and apparently Noah didn't mention it.
As I pointed out in my first post (the one you quoted was my second), the Colorado River does, in fact, have a delta. It's not quite so large and spread out as the Mississippi delta due to several factors that I can explain if you're interested, but it is still there.
Yes it does. I had to go back and check my sources, since I read the explanation I based my post on several years ago. The question it seems is not the existence of the delta but the magnitude. Even given that most of it has eroded since the dams were built, it still doesn't account for the magnitude of material that must have been removed. Neither does gradual erosion account for sheer vertical walls, which would have to be cut by a tremendous flow of water over a short period of time.

Regardless, though I did say "great delta," I'd forgotten there was much of anything there at all. There certainly is, and before long it will probably dissolve into history with much of the other information that will leave our questions permanently unsolved. In the end, it depends whether you believe God's version or man's version. Personally, I believe God.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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I have no idea at what elevation the ark landed, only that the mountains were covered, so if a mountain was 13,000 feet high then the water was 13,000 feet deep. The mountains could well have been 8,000 feet high prior to seismic activity after the flood, but the point made is that they were covered by water, regardless of elevation. The flood was global. It killed all land creatures not on the ark. Presumably the intent was to get off the boat, so it would make sense that it would rest fairly high up in the mountains instead of in a valley somewhere.
You missed my point, in that, since you don't know where, or at what elevation, the Ark came to rest, you cannot use your evidence for a global flood. Consider the flooding of the Black Sea, which is one of the more likely candidates for what became known as the Biblical Flood: it has a maximum depth of about 7200 feet, so something that began at the bottom of that basin before it was flooded would rise up into the surrounding mountains as the water from the Mediterranean poured in. Large water level rise, and yet still a local flood.

Yes it does. I had to go back and check my sources, since I read the explanation I based my post on several years ago. The question it seems is not the existence of the delta but the magnitude. Even given that most of it has eroded since the dams were built, it still doesn't account for the magnitude of material that must have been removed. Neither does gradual erosion account for sheer vertical walls, which would have to be cut by a tremendous flow of water over a short period of time.

1) As you said, the delta has been sediment-starved for about 80 years now due to the dams. You'd be surprised at what wave action can do in 80 years.

2) Before being dammed, the Colorado delta covered ~7800 square kilometers. In comparison, the Mississippi delta covers 12,000 square km. That's not all that big of a difference, especially considering the differences in water quantity and drainage area between the two rivers.

3) I don't know which Grand Canyon you visited, but the walls really can't be called sheer and vertical. Portions are, but the canyon itself is up to 18 miles wide (and only a little more than a mile deep). The steep sections are simply due to the weathering characteristics of the rocks.

4) Geologically, 17 million years (about what it took to cut the Grand Canyon) is a short time, but I've never heard anyone who doesn't work with deep time say that.
 
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