Obedience Motivated by Love, Not Law

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If we are perfect and complete in Christ, then what good is the law?

"...we know that the law is good..." (1 Tim. 1:8 KJV)

"is good" is a predicate. But "is good" standing along it is not a predication about anything, anyplace, or anyone.

Why abolish something or someone that is good?
 
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RobertPate

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"...we know that the law is good..." (1 Tim. 1:8 KJV)

"is good" is a predicate. But "is good" standing along it is not a predication about anything, anyplace, or anyone.

Why abolish something or someone that is good?
We know that the law is good, because it brings us to Christ, Galatians 3:24.

We know that the law is good, because it reveals the righteousness of God and the righteousness of Christ, Romans 3:22.

But the law is not made for the righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, 1 Timothy 1:9.
 
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For_Faith

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We know that the law is good, because it brings us to Christ, Galatians 3:24.

We know that the law is good, because it reveals the righteousness of God and the righteousness of Christ, Romans 3:22.

But the law is not made for the righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, 1 Timothy 1:9.

Justified (adjective)

Let's take a closer look at that word. Here is what I found when I googled the word.

1.
having a good or legitimate reason
done for a good or legitimate reason
marked by a good or legitimate reason

Usage in a sentence...
"the doctors were justified in treating her"
My Question:
The doctors were justified by whom? The speaker? The thinker? The judge?

2. THEOLOGY
declared or made righteous in the sight of God.

My Question:
a. Who declared someone or anyone righteous in the sight of God?
b. Who made someone or anyone righteous in the sight of God?

"justified by faith"

No doubt that in using the preposition "by", the writer is showing a relationship between justified and faith.

I should also add that justified is related to faith.
 
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RobertPate

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Justified (adjective)

Let's take a closer look at that word. Here is what I found when I googled the word.

1.
having a good or legitimate reason
done for a good or legitimate reason
marked by a good or legitimate reason

Usage in a sentence...
"the doctors were justified in treating her"
My Question:
The doctors were justified by whom? The speaker? The thinker? The judge?

2. THEOLOGY
declared or made righteous in the sight of God.

My Question:
a. Who declared someone or anyone righteous in the sight of God?
b. Who made someone or anyone righteous in the sight of God?

"justified by faith"

No doubt that in using the preposition "by", the writer is showing a relationship between justified and faith.

I should also add that justified is related to faith.
Good that you are looking into those things concerning justification. Justification means to be declared just or guiltless.

Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles them unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. Jesus is God's justifier, Romans 3:26. Justification is something that we receive by faith. To be saved we must believe that we have been justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus and now stand in God's Holy Court as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Robert Pate

Carl,
In Romans8:6 we read
To be carnally minded is death,to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
8:9 declares if the person does not have the Spirit he is none of His.
We are told the reason is the Spirit leads believers to mortify. Ie, deprive sin of its power.
Rom8.:11-14

being "led" by the Spirit, is being led to mortify all remaining sin.

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The Spirit indwelling all true believers leads believers to mortify, or deprive remaining sin of it's power.
We are to be killing the motions of sin in our unredeemed bodies.
The Spirit quickens the sord of God, His law /word to us in order that we pursue holiness, without which no man will see the Lord.
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

This refers to our law keeping and service unto God.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

All of these statements are wrong and come short of discovering the righteousness of God.
Robert posted this;
1]I like Paul am a New Covenant Christian. Under the New Covenant God sees his people as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. If we are perfect and complete in Christ, then what good is the law?

2]There are two separate aspects to the Christian life. There is the spiritual and there is the physical. These two aspects cannot be confused, to do so is heresy.

3]
This means that works, laws and religion serve no purpose in the Christians life. Paul said that we should be "Dead to the law and alive to Christ" Romans 6:8. To be dead to the law is to be dead to sin. It is the law that promotes sin, Romans 7:8.
4]
Spiritually speaking, I cannot sin. "For where there is no law, there is no transgression" Romans 4:15. Jesus has nailed the law to his cross, Colossians 2:14.
5]Right. To be subject to the law is to be subject to sin, Romans 7:8
The law promotes sin. Paul said, The commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death" Romans 7:10.


The law does not promote sin...it reveals it. A mirror does not cause your facial hair to grow unruly, but it reveals you need a shave.
 
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For_Faith

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The law does not promote sin...it reveals it. A mirror does not cause your facial hair to grow unruly, but it reveals you need a shave.

No defects are in the commandments of God, in which God commands us to do something, or commands us to refrain from doing something. The blemish (or defect) is in people, not in any of the commandments of God. (Deuteronomy 32:5)
 
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RobertPate

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being "led" by the Spirit, is being led to mortify all remaining sin.

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The Spirit indwelling all true believers leads believers to mortify, or deprive remaining sin of it's power.
We are to be killing the motions of sin in our unredeemed bodies.
The Spirit quickens the sord of God, His law /word to us in order that we pursue holiness, without which no man will see the Lord.
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

This refers to our law keeping and service unto God.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

All of these statements are wrong and come short of discovering the righteousness of God.
Robert posted this;
1]I like Paul am a New Covenant Christian. Under the New Covenant God sees his people as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. If we are perfect and complete in Christ, then what good is the law?

2]There are two separate aspects to the Christian life. There is the spiritual and there is the physical. These two aspects cannot be confused, to do so is heresy.

3]
This means that works, laws and religion serve no purpose in the Christians life. Paul said that we should be "Dead to the law and alive to Christ" Romans 6:8. To be dead to the law is to be dead to sin. It is the law that promotes sin, Romans 7:8.
4]
Spiritually speaking, I cannot sin. "For where there is no law, there is no transgression" Romans 4:15. Jesus has nailed the law to his cross, Colossians 2:14.
5]Right. To be subject to the law is to be subject to sin, Romans 7:8
The law promotes sin. Paul said, The commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death" Romans 7:10.


The law does not promote sin...it reveals it. A mirror does not cause your facial hair to grow unruly, but it reveals you need a shave.
I believe that the law does promote sin.

Everything was just fine in the Garden of Eden until God introduced the law. Adam and Eve were being tested. They failed the test by sinning against God. Paul said, "Where there is no law there is no transgression" Romans 4:15. To properly interpret that one might say, "Where there is law there is sin". Paul said that the law caused him to sin, "For I was without the law once: but when the commandment came, SIN REVIVED, and I died" Romans 7:9.
 
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RobertPate

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No defects are in the commandments of God, in which God commands us to do something, or commands us to refrain from doing something. The blemish (or defect) is in people, not in any of the commandments of God. (Deuteronomy 32:5)
I agree. Paul said that the law is good, Romans 7:12. But the law is not going to make anyone a better person. If anything, it is going to make them worse. Maybe if you are a lawless and disobedient person, 1 Timothy 1:9, it may help you to see what a bad person you are and you will hopefully call on Christ to save you.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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I believe that the law does promote sin.

Everything was just fine in the Garden of Eden until God introduced the law. Adam and Eve were being tested. They failed the test by sinning against God. Paul said, "Where there is no law there is no transgression" Romans 4:15. To properly interpret that one might say, "Where there is law there is sin". Paul said that the law caused him to sin, "For I was without the law once: but when the commandment came, SIN REVIVED, and I died" Romans 7:9.
Robert,

You are suggesting That God caused man to sin?
God the creator and law giver should not be allowed to tell us the rules? His law?
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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No defects are in the commandments of God, in which God commands us to do something, or commands us to refrain from doing something. The blemish (or defect) is in people, not in any of the commandments of God. (Deuteronomy 32:5)

Exactly. Wrong theology cannot end well. God is indeed perfect in every way.
To question god, is theological third rail.
 
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I agree. Paul said that the law is good, Romans 7:12. But the law is not going to make anyone a better person. If anything, it is going to make them worse. Maybe if you are a lawless and disobedient person, 1 Timothy 1:9, it may help you to see what a bad person you are and you will hopefully call on Christ to save you.

Me being bad or disobedient to the commands of God does not change the fact that the law is good, and that the law comes from a Holy God who is the law-giver---the giver of every perfect gift. (James 1:17)

You think God messed everything up in the Garden?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Everything was just fine in the Garden of Eden until God introduced the law.

No so - everything was fine until Satan fell and tempted Eve. Before this the Law concerning the tree was there and they had no inclination to eat thereof.
 
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RobertPate

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Robert,

You are suggesting That God caused man to sin?
God the creator and law giver should not be allowed to tell us the rules? His law?
It was a test, but God knew Adam would fail, because he was flesh, not divine.
 
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RobertPate

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Me being bad or disobedient to the commands of God does not change the fact that the law is good, and that the law comes from a Holy God who is the law-giver---the giver of every perfect gift. (James 1:17)

You think God messed everything up in the Garden?
No, Adam messed up. God does not create mindless robots. Adam by his own free will sinned.
 
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RobertPate

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No so - everything was fine until Satan fell and tempted Eve. Before this the Law concerning the tree was there and they had no inclination to eat thereof.
Just as soon as God said, "Don't eat of the tree" Eve had to go look at it and said that it was tree to be desired, Genesis 3:6.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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It was a test, but God knew Adam would fail, because he was flesh, not divine.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
 
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No, Adam messed up. God does not create mindless robots. Adam by his own free will sinned.

Okay. So, there was nothing wrong with the commandment of God. The real problem was having a relationship with God, and man staying in that relationship above all other relationships. Man's existence depends on God. God's existence does not depend on anyone.
 
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The Pharisees thought that obedience and righteousness was motivated by their effort to keep the Mosiac law.

Under the New Covenant the Old Covenant of law and religion was abolished,

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those whoa re in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. So Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather it still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33). Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to abolish any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross (Acts 21:20).

Ephesians 2:15. Jesus nailed it to his cross, Colossians 2:14. The reason that it was abolished was because it was no longer applicable for New Testament Christians.

The Greek word "dogma is used five times in the Bible, once in Ephesians 2:15, once in Colossians 2:14, twice in regard to a decree of Caesar (Luke 2:1, Acts 17:7), and once in regard to the decree of the Jerusalem Council (Acts 16:4), so justification needs to be given for why it should be interpreted in Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 as referring to all of the law of God, especially when all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). Furthermore, in Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus specifically said that he came not to abolish the Mosaic Law and warned against relaxing the least part or it or teaching others to do the same. Likewise, in Romans 3:31, Paul confirmed that our faith does not abolish the Mosaic Law, but rather our faith upholds it, yet you seek to do the opposite.

Paul wrote, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" Romans 10:4.


In Matthew 7:23, Christ said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing Christ is the goal of the law. In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the Mosaic Law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing it as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey when we confess that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead.

Many Christians believe that the law is their teacher and their guide and that they should live by laws, rules and religion. This is exactly what the Pharisees thought. But the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is our teacher and our guide and not the law, John 16:13.

In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law, and in Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law (1 John 3:4). In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God, who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit is given to those who obey God. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-16, 30:1-8), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrasted with Acts 7:51-53, the those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Mosaic Law.

When God abolished the written law, he wrote the spiritual law on the hearts and minds of his people, Hebrews 8:10. The spiritual law is very different from the written law. The written law demands perfection or death. The spiritual law is an urging or prompting to do what is right. There is no condemnation for those that violate the spiritual law, Romans 8:1.

The New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts so that we will obey it, not so that we will have justification for refusing to obey it, which was the reason why the New Covenant was needed in the first place (Hebrews 8:6-9). The Mosaic Law came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so it never demanded perfect obedience. In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted with Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death, so he equated the Mosaic Law with the Law of the Spirit of Life.

Under the New Covenant God's people don't live by rules, laws or religion. Paul wrote, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. They live by faith in Christ and his Gospel.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law. Likewise, in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose hearts is the Mosaic Law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so ironically in the name of speaking in favor of living by faith in Christ and his Gospel, you are rejecting living by faith in Christ and his Gospel.
 
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RobertPate

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13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

We all err. I try not to err, because there are consequences to sin. It can wreck your life.
 
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