Obamagate Timeline...Explains A Lot

[VirOptimus]

What do you mean? All of the information in the timeline came from published leftwing newspapers like the NYT.

Nope, its the usual lying, twisting and halftruths thats (regrettably) the modus operandi of the Trump cheerleaders.

I dont really get it, Im not opposed to different views and values, but why lie and misrepresent? Makes rational debate impossible.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

He doesn't need to.

Sure he does...extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

We need more than a solitary news headline in order to validate a story.

He called them "Fake News" on more than one occasion...so given that, are we to assume that Trump's an idiot for blindly accepting information from a source that he, himself, accused of being fake?

Or, is it that news outlets are only "Fake News" when they're saying something bad about him?

Either way you slice it, he's on the hook for providing evidence. Either NYT is not fake news and he's been lying about several other things...or the NYT is fake news and he was an idiot to believe that information.

Which is it? --he can't have it both ways, either the media is reliable or it's not, he doesn't get to cherry pick based on what soothes his ego.

 

[nChrist]

We already know that the wiretap happened. The question is who authorized it without a warrant?

 

[The Barbarian]

I can certainly see what that would seem like a plausible scenario to the Trump and Co.

 

[The Barbarian]

We already know that the wiretap happened. The question is who authorized it without a warrant?

So far, we don't know, but even the unnamed source that says that there was, says a judge granted a warrant.

 

[Vylo]

I think the most revealing part of this timeline is how the moment anything comes to light about Trump's collusion with Russia, another pile of files comes out from putinleaks.

 

[bhsmte]

Like many other Trump accusations...if he wants to put this to bed and prove that the "Fake News" is actually fake, and he's the one telling the truth, simply release the official information proving his story to be accurate. Why hasn't he done that?

If you have incriminating evidence against a former president and the general public has a poor perception of you, what better way to bolster your own credit than to definitively prove yourself right...why doesn't Trump do that?

He release these accusations on social media, and then doesn't ever support his statements with evidence.

What's surprising is that his die-hard supporters let it slide...if memory serves me correct, that was a group of people who were very hot and bothered about presidents needing to provide certain documentation about certain claims were they not?

They've gotten awful lax about documentation over the last few months...

Yep, he could settle this real quick. I wonder why he doesn't?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Yep, he could settle this real quick. I wonder why he doesn't?

He has no need to. Just floating the idea is enough for anyone who wants to believe the absolute worst of Obama. Just like he never had to prove Obama was not American. It's just not necessary to prove your lies if enough people automatically believe them.

 

[bhsmte]

He has no need to. Just floating the idea is enough for anyone who wants to believe the absolute worst of Obama. Just like he never had to prove Obama was not American. It's just not necessary to prove your lies if enough people automatically believe them.

This is the risk he runs though. Now, he is constantly in the spotlight and if he keeps spewing garbage that can not be supported with evidence, people will grow tired of the sheer repetition of it and he will lose some of those people, who now believe everything he says.

 

[wing2000]

I don't understand your question. Perhaps you're using the wrong words. Do you mean release information or stop the spying?

If Obama had in fact "wire-tapped" Trump tower, he would need court authorization to do so...either the FISA court if it involved intelligence matters or a Federal Court for criminal investigations. In both cases, Trump has yet to release any such request (and he, as President, has the power to do so).

 

[evoeth]

He has no need to. Just floating the idea is enough for anyone who wants to believe the absolute worst of Obama. Just like he never had to prove Obama was not American. It's just not necessary to prove your lies if enough people automatically believe them.

Correct. Here's a relevant excerpt from one of Sam Harris's podcasts on the subject that you may be interested in:

“There is a difference between truth and lies. There is a difference between real news and fake news. There is a difference between actual conspiracies and imagined ones. And we cannot afford to have 100’s of millions of people, in our own society, on the wrong side of those epistemological chasms. And we certainly can’t afford to have members of our own government on the wrong side of it. As I’ve said many times before, all we have is conversation…you have conversation and violence. That’s how we can influence one another. When things really matter and words are insufficient, people show up with guns.That’s the way things are. So we have to create the conditions where conversations work. And now we’re living in an environment where words have become totally ineffectual. This is what has been so harmful about Trump’s candidacy and his first few weeks as president. The degree to which the man lies, and the degree to which his supporters do not care, that is one of the most dangerous things to happen in my lifetime, politically. There simply has to be a consequence for lying on this level. And the retort from a Trump fan is “Well all politicians lie.” No. All politicians don’t lie like this. What we are witnessing with Trump and the people around him is something quite new. Even if I grant that all politicians lie a lot. I don’t know if I should grant that. All politicians lie sometimes, say…but…even in their lying they have to endorse the norm of truth telling. That’s what it means to lie successfully in politics (in a former age of the Earth). You can’t obviously be lying. You can’t be repudiating the very norm of honest communication. But what Trump has done, and the people around him get caught in the same vortex, it’s almost like a giddy nihilism in politics, you just say whatever you want. And it doesn’t matter if it’s true. “Just try to stop me”, is the attitude. It’s unbelievable.

Finding ways to span this chasm between people, finding ways where we can reliably influence one another, through conversation, based on shared norms of argumentation and self-criticism, that is the operating systems we need. That is the only thing that stands between us and chaos. And there are the people who are trying to build that, and there are the people who are trying to take it down. Now one of those people is people is president. And I really don’t think this is too strong. Trump is, by all appearances, consciously destroying the fabric of civil conversation, and his supporters really don’t seem to care. I’m sure those of you support him will think I’m just winging now in the spirit of partisanship. That I’m a democrat, or that I’m a liberal, but that’s just not the case. Most normal Republican candidates, who I might dislike for a variety of reasons like Marco Rubio, or Jeb Bush, or even a quasi-theocrat like Ted Cruz, would still function within the normal channels of attempting a fact based conversation about the world. Their lies would be normal lies, and when caught there would be a penalty to pay. They would lose face. Trump has no face to lose. This is an epistemological pot latch.” (Sam Harris then describes what a pot latch is: a Native American practice of burning up your prized possessions as a way of showing how wealthy you are). “This is a pot latch of civil discourse. Every time Trump speaks he’s saying, “I don’t have to make sense. I’m too powerful to even have to make sense.” That is his message. And half the country, or nearly half, seems to love it. So when he’s caught in a lie, he has no face to lose. Trump is chaos. And one of the measures of how bad he seems to me is that I don’t even care about the theocrats he has brought to power with him, and there are many of them. He has brought in Christian fundamentalists to a degree that would have been unthinkable 10 years ago, and 10 years ago I was spending a lot of time worrying about the rise of the Christian right in this country. Well it has risen under Trump, but honestly it seems like the least of our problems at this moment. And it’s amazing for me to say that given what it means and what it might mean to have people like Pence and Jeff Sessions and the other Christian fundamentalists in his orbit, empowered in this way. ”

 

[USincognito]

What do you mean? All of the information in the timeline came from published leftwing newspapers like the NYT.

I love how words like leftwing don't actually have a meaning for some people.

 

[USincognito]

So are you saying that even if Trump is completely innocent of any wrong doing he is still in trouble because a judge may have thought there might be a possibility that he could have done something wrong when for the second time those politically opposed to Trump insisted that such a possibility existed? Or is it that you simply don't like Trump and will just assume the worst of him no matter what the facts might be?

Funny how So's Law just keeps getting verified over and over here.

 

[DaisyDay]

What do you mean? All of the information in the timeline came from published leftwing newspapers like the NYT.

Once again, it wasn't Trump or Flynn who was being wiretapped, but the Russian ambassador - who met with Flynn while being recorded. Flynn got recorded as he was talking to Kislyak.

 

[The Stamp]

Hands up all those who think the US has big problems with Trump as Commander in Chief?
Just agree to show your hand.

 

[KCfromNC]

Whatever info was used to justify requesting the FISA court approval is now highly suspect. It now appears to have been mostly manufactured.

Only "mostly manufactured"? Interesting. Can you tell us what the non-manufactured evidence was that caused a Federal Judge to think there was sufficient cause to approve a wiretap as part of a criminal or national intelligence investigation of Trump's relationship with the Russians? Please be specific.

 

[KCfromNC]

I can certainly see what that would seem like a plausible scenario to the Trump and Co.

I don't know. Given Trump's lack of attention span can anyone believe he'd be able to follow a 5 step process?

 

[KCfromNC]

I think the most revealing part of this timeline is how the moment anything comes to light about Trump's collusion with Russia, another pile of files comes out from putinleaks.

Total coincidence, I'm sure. We've been confidently told Wikileaks isn't trying to build any sort of narrative, unlike those evil people in the the intelligence community.

 

[KCfromNC]

This is the risk he runs though. Now, he is constantly in the spotlight and if he keeps spewing garbage that can not be supported with evidence, people will grow tired of the sheer repetition of it and he will lose some of those people, who now believe everything he says.

The other problem (as people like ex-advisor Flynn and current AG Sessions found out) is that the more you say the more chance there is you'll end up saying something that obviously isn't true - and more importantly, things that the intelligence community have solid documentation on. That's the sort of situation which exposes coverups which end Presidencies.

 

[bhsmte]

The other problem (as people like ex-advisor Flynn and current AG Sessions found out) is that the more you say the more chance there is you'll end up saying something that obviously isn't true - and more importantly, things that the intelligence community have solid documentation on. That's the sort of situation which exposes coverups which end Presidencies.

Here is the bottom line, people eventually grow tired of garbage rhetoric with no substance. It may take a while, but it happens. In fact, i believe this is the same reason people in general became fed up with establishment politicians.