Obama and marriage between Gays and Lesbians.

[SaraJarvis]

I do so appreciate your response

Now, if you can kindly show me where it says Sunday work is punishable by death, I'd be ever so grateful

In case you're going - "What is he talking about? I just showed it to Him", the Sabbath isn't Sunday. It's Saturday. The road that explains why most people consider it to be Sunday is filled with prophecy

Alright then, even if the Sabbath isn't Sunday - should be put everyone who works on Saturday to death? That's what the scripture seems to be saying, but we both know that this isn't something people can stick to. Why stick to certain parts of the scripture, and ignore others?

The reason why the selection is small is because people enjoy sin. Education won't change people's decisions especially when you're in the heat of the moment, or perhaps intoxicated a bit. And even if everyone practiced safe sex, it wouldn't address issues of the heart.



Trust me, at least in my neck of the woods, more people opt to not work. I know someone who can get a 4 bedroom home through government assistance that cost less than half of what I pay in rent for a 700ft sq ft apartment. I believe it should be simple. Get paid what you deserve for what you do.



If only. Seen the brother walk on water. Seen him go from the bottom of a 30 or so story building straight to the top in the time it took someone to remove a plastic bag from his body. Either that dude has 4 identical brothers, or he's more than an illusionist.



The proof is in the prophecy. As I said, Daniel wrote of the rise and fall of 4 empires - Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and than Rome. Each empire had a metal associated with it that decreased in value but increased in strength. I could also hit you with the fact that several things concerning the RCC were prophesied in the bible.



Sin is sin. A violation of the law of God makes you a criminal. And again, mercy was allotted to the transgressor. That's what the sacrificial service was for. And it wasn't murder at that time. It was capital punishment. Of course now we're no longer under a Theocracy, and as such, we are admonished to live by the rules of those who govern us.



Can you show me this passage where the bible says to put people to death who work on Sundays ?



Because God is the Author of life. If our bodies do something, it's because He programmed them to do that. The bible doesn't have to speak about DNA. It establishes God as Creator. That's all it needs to say.



God called everything that is into existence from nothing. He formed man from the dust of the earth. There is nothing impossible for Him, least of all creating Eve from Adam's rib



Cancer is a result of sin, which is a result of disobedience on man's part. I don't have an issue with science in and of itself. Science is a tool, and like any tool, it can be used for good when wielded properly, or it can be used for evil.



This situation goes deeper than anything you'll ever learn about. If science is really about truth why is evolution taught as fact when it's still only theory? Why is it improper to teach creationism, from a scientific standpoint, using the complexity of life to prove the work of a Master Builder? I'm not saying that everyone who works in that field is out to "get us". I'm saying that there are many who have accepted a lie, and others who orchestrate it.



Yes the bible does say that. "Let there be light". That's the substance. The sun is nothing more than a large mass of fire. It has a particular shape, one that it received on the 4th day when God formed it. Again, it's just like with the earth. The planet was here already, but it was void and without form. God gave it form and populated it over the course of six days. The mass that would become he sun was created on day one. It was given shape on day four.

It goes directly AGAINST human nature to become monogamous, though - especially males, they have the urge to spread their genes, whereas women go for the most attractive mate (not in terms of looks, if we're considering back to basics), bear their child, and have a more 'reliable' mate to look after said child. Monogamy is a social construct with very little to do with nature.

Then perhaps the problem is the system - perhaps people shouldn't be paid a pittance for menial jobs. That's exploitation.

Ah, then maybe he's using tricks of the light, magnets, reflection, or strings of some sort? That seems a little more likely than him being capable of dark powers, doesn't it? =p

As ThinkFreeDom has said - none of the empires are actually mentioned by name in these prophecies.

But what if you don't believe in God? Isn't it wrong to make others abide by a Christian ideal?

I've posted about the Sunday - or Sabbath - thing a few comments back.

Alright - so God allows cancer because of sin? What about those who are Christians and try not to sin? Why does he let them get cancer?

Because evolution is more viable than creationism - we want our children to be intellectual; if they want to delve into religion later in life, let them; that's their own personal choice. Besides, kids are taught about religion in school. It's R.E here in England. But creationism doesn't belong in science - that belongs in faith.

Ahh, but how do you know that? Is it speculation or does the bible actually say that?

 

[Pythons]

Well, it has always existed and here we are.



Well, if religious people want to invent their own version of the civil institution of marriage that is fine. We will call it marriage though.

Just as I said - the celebration of same sex buggerism as a sexual orientation....
...Is 100% resultant from social engineering - it's an anomaly / oddity in Nature.
...And can ONLY be mainted by means outside of Nature - i.e. un-natural means.

That's just it, a homosexual has the same right that I do to marry a member of the opposite sex....
...They don't want that however, they want a special right to "marry" the same sex.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Now I know you are joking. Gayizm? De-manipulate? You have been laughing at me all along.

Homosexual sex exists in all human societies and always has. It has been recorded in many animal species, and probably exists in all. If 'de-manipulating' (sic) my mind means ignoring the huge body of scientific evidence in front of me in favour of an Iron Age tribal religion then no, I can't.

Gayizm?

Yes, and No...

I am a humorous person and try to get a message through with humor

Look, as a christian I have based my faith on God. I had some experiences with Him about 13 years ago. After knowing that God truly exists, I have accepted His word.

Look at it this way, if you knew for sure that there is the Lord. You would also come to the conclusion that the world as we know it, has become quite crazy (probably always been).

If you look at the media, especially american media, you will know what I mean... what you get to see on the tube is not necessarily uplifting... education has excluded God, people are taught to believe the evolution... all of this might be of value but once you come to experience the Lord, all value is gone...

so its either/or

you either believe the so-called ancient 'tribal' God... who is among others the Creator of this earth and you and me, or believe some rubbish, cause everything else rubbish and foolishness...

Imagine you had bought yourself some dogs! now one of these dogs would recognize your authority... and turn against you... the first instances you might forgive and try to change his behavior... but then he bites one of your kids... what would you do?

Right!

A simple example, but this is the world we are living in, the devil has clouded the peoples minds. Filled them with all sorts of vices... sin doesnt exist anymore... it is either legalized or downplayed...

Now gayizm, like I already posted before, is none of my concerns, cause I am very fortunate in not being gay... nevertheless the bible speaks against it, so who do you want to convince of the opposite. Nobody at this forum who is a christian will accept your view... because it goes against a definite precept of the Lord. We should all abstain from sexual immorality... but gayizm is definitely an abonimanation to the Lord. And we as his beloved puppies cannot do anythin else the call a sin what it is, A SIN! not just a disease...

 

[ThinkFreeDom]

you either believe the so-called ancient 'tribal' God... who is among others the Creator of this earth and you and me, or believe some rubbish, cause everything else rubbish and foolishness...

So you dismiss all the wisdom of Greek philosophy, Western philosophy, science and literature as rubbish? Is it really divided between your belief or 'rubbish', in your mind? Have you not had any medical treatment? You have science to thank for that. Do you believe in democracy? That is an ancient Greek idea.

If we had not believed in anything other than the bible we would still be living in the Iron Age, and you and I would be most likely be dead by now.

Imagine you had bought yourself some dogs! now one of these dogs would recognize your authority... and turn against you... the first instances you might forgive and try to change his behavior... but then he bites one of your kids... what would you do?

Who has bitten whom? I don't get this anaolgy.

Now gayizm, like I already posted before, is none of my concerns, cause I am very fortunate in not being gay... nevertheless the bible speaks against it, so who do you want to convince of the opposite. Nobody at this forum who is a christian will accept your view... because it goes against a definite precept of the Lord. We should all abstain from sexual immorality... but gayizm is definitely an abonimanation to the Lord. And we as his beloved puppies cannot do anythin else the call a sin what it is, A SIN! not just a disease...

The bible speaks against Egyptians, says we should burn to death the daughter of a priest who 'plays the harlot,' and that we should stone to death blasphemers. Shellfish are an abomination.

We don't presecute Egyptians, we don't burn anyone to death, we don't stone anyone. I for one love steamed clams and no Christian has ever called me up on it. So we can safely ignore lots of the more primitive and unpleasant stuff in the bible so why can't we ignore two lines about homosexuals?

If we take anything Leviticus says seriously I am actually prohibited from entering a church, because I had testicular torsion (from jumping onto an inner tube in a swimming pool) when I was a teenager and lost one of my testicles. According to Leviticus 21:20 -23 I can't 'approach' the house of the Lord because I have 'blemish'.

By the way I don't think that 'gayizm' is a real world.

 

[ThinkFreeDom]

That's just it, a homosexual has the same right that I do to marry a member of the opposite sex....
...They don't want that however, they want a special right to "marry" the same sex.

Well, it being our institution we will change it as we see fit. Even the Christian version of marriage has changed, it used to be that you couldn't marry a non-virgin.

 

[JohnMarsten]

So you dismiss all the wisdom of Greek philosophy, Western philosophy, science and literature as rubbish? Is it really divided between your belief or 'rubbish', in your mind? Have you not had any medical treatment? You have science to thank for that. Do you believe in democracy? That is an ancient Greek idea.

If we had not believed in anything other than the bible we would still be living in the Iron Age, and you and I would be most likely be dead by now.

Well, the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God, ever heard about that?

I mean take this whole gayizm discourse here... what is the point of it? I know for myself, that when it will be finished, I will back at my starting position. Same goes for philosophy! most philosophers (Nietsche for example) dismiss the existence of God... wow... that is rubbish to me...

I have had medical treatment, so who invented it? God, who laid the foundations for everything, or mankind?

Democrazy? For sure! Of course I like the idea of democracy! that makes the american people guilty of all the wars america has started or participated in since WWII. RIght? Do you feel guilty? I mean democrazy is what you voted for, so you are guilty of everything that the government does. Democracy has its limits... and btw, the real government is yet to come, when Jesus will reign!!!

[/quote]
Who has bitten whom? I don't get this anaolgy.[/quote]

the biting can stand for any kind of transgressions... Is it actually that hard to figure it out? - Jesus was crucified, prophets killed, etc.


[/quote]
The bible speaks against Egyptians, says we should burn to death the daughter of a priest who 'plays the harlot,' and that we should stone to death blasphemers. Shellfish are an abomination.

We don't presecute Egyptians, we don't burn anyone to death, we don't stone anyone. I for one love steamed clams and no Christian has ever called me up on it. So we can safely ignore lots of the more primitive and unpleasant stuff in the bible so why can't we ignore two lines about homosexuals?

If we take anything Leviticus says seriously I am actually prohibited from entering a church, because I had testicular torsion (from jumping onto an inner tube in a swimming pool) when I was a teenager and lost one of my testicles. According to Leviticus 21:20 -23 I can't 'approach' the house of the Lord because I have 'blemish'.[/quote]

My condolences!

Look, I dont have all the answers, especially regarding ancient times, I wasnt there, but I am certain there was a meaning of it. The statutes given to the israelites werent always good but they served a purpose, and we cannot know the ways of the Lord as our thoughts are not His thoughts...

Let me ask you, do you generally dismiss the existence of God or do you actually believe He exists but dont like Him according what you have read in the bible etc.???

[/quote]
By the way I don't think that 'gayizm' is a real world.[/quote]

I guess you mean 'word'...

but since understood what I meant, the word that I coined served its purpose, right? so why bother?

 

[Stryder06]

Alright then, even if the Sabbath isn't Sunday - should be put everyone who works on Saturday to death? That's what the scripture seems to be saying, but we both know that this isn't something people can stick to. Why stick to certain parts of the scripture, and ignore others?

It is something we could stick to. It's simply something that many people don't stick to. And God doesn't want to strike people down for not being obedient. He wants them to repent. Israel has a history of apostasy, idol worship, and sabbath desecration. God never wiped them out. He called them to repent. It's the same with us.

It goes directly AGAINST human nature to become monogamous, though - especially males, they have the urge to spread their genes, whereas women go for the most attractive mate (not in terms of looks, if we're considering back to basics), bear their child, and have a more 'reliable' mate to look after said child. Monogamy is a social construct with very little to do with nature.

I disagree. Of course I don't think we came from animals though so that could be part of the reason why. The nature we have now is not the nature we should have. It is a sinful nature, one that revels in selfishness. Most of the things we say are ok to do are actually quite harmful to us. Yet because we can take pleasure in them for a moment, we discard the part that is harmful and excuse our actions, taken exception with anyone who would strip away our "fun".

Then perhaps the problem is the system - perhaps people shouldn't be paid a pittance for menial jobs. That's exploitation.

You think people should work for free? How do you define "menial"?

Ah, then maybe he's using tricks of the light, magnets, reflection, or strings of some sort? That seems a little more likely than him being capable of dark powers, doesn't it? =p

Not at all - "we wrestle not against flesh and blood..." I don't know what strings/tricks of light/etc one can use to walk on water with people swimming underneath you, or that will allow you to traverse several hundred flights of steps within seconds.

As ThinkFreeDom has said - none of the empires are actually mentioned by name in these prophecies.

They don't have to be. The prophecy spells them out without having to name them. The attributes associated with each empire makes it plain. so much so, that again, people try to place the entire book of Daniel in another time period. Not to mention there are prophecies concerning the Catholic church in that book. Do you really think it's coincidence that Greece was represented by Bronze and Rome was represented by Iron?

But what if you don't believe in God? Isn't it wrong to make others abide by a Christian ideal?

Some people don't believe in Democracy. Doesn't give them the right to try to overthrow the government.

I've posted about the Sunday - or Sabbath - thing a few comments back.

That you did. And I'm so anxious to show you the prophecies which explain why you thought the sabbath was Sunday. There's actually a book I'd suggest to you if you're interested.

Alright - so God allows cancer because of sin? What about those who are Christians and try not to sin? Why does he let them get cancer?

For the same reason that he allows those who don't believe in Him to continue to live. Rain falls on the just and the unjust. Cancer to a believer is a trail no different then anything else. For those in Christ however, even if they should die, they will live again. Our life on this side of eternity is only a whisper in the wind. True life begins when we shall see Christ face to face. This entire situation goes deeper than anything you could probably imagine.

Because evolution is more viable than creationism - we want our children to be intellectual; if they want to delve into religion later in life, let them; that's their own personal choice. Besides, kids are taught about religion in school. It's R.E here in England. But creationism doesn't belong in science - that belongs in faith.

You do realize that you've insinuated that to be an intellectual, you can't have faith right? You can learn the same things about science without throwing in "It happend X Billion years agao" or "Over the span of X million years ABC happened." In truth, by doing that, you're actually lying, because it hasn't been proven yet. But because scientist know they CAN'T prove it, they simply condition people to believe it's true by teaching it as fact, and discouraging any other theory that involves God. Why not teach both ideas and allow the child to make up their own mind?

Ahh, but how do you know that? Is it speculation or does the bible actually say that?

It's not speculation. It's based on the pattern shown. Our understanding of the bible is line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little. But of course, spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

 

[ThinkFreeDom]

Democrazy? For sure! Of course I like the idea of democracy! that makes the american people guilty of all the wars america has started or participated in since WWII. RIght? Do you feel guilty? I mean democrazy is what you voted for, so you are guilty of everything that the government does. Democracy has its limits... and btw, the real government is yet to come, when Jesus will reign!!!

I'm not American, so no, I don't feel guilty and neither should you. My point was that you dismissed ideas like democracy, because they are not biblical.

Let me ask you, do you generally dismiss the existence of God or do you actually believe He exists but dont like Him according what you have read in the bible etc.???

I have seen no credible evidence to suggest the existence of any god, but I am open to the possibility. As for liking him, no, what is there to like? All the bigotry and ignorance I see on this board and in the real world is horrible.

The response I get from most Christians indicates that they worship God because he is God, not because he is good.

As a piece of advice for those who feel compelled to defend God and their belief in him, I would suggest that you take that route, rather than trying to justify his actions as they are not justifiable by contemporary moral standards.

 

[ThinkFreeDom]

Look, I dont have all the answers, especially regarding ancient times, I wasnt there, but I am certain there was a meaning of it. The statutes given to the israelites werent always good but they served a purpose

Ok, so they have served their purpose, so there is no reason to hang on to the homophobic elements any more than there is to hang on to the ban on shellfish. You have hit the nail on the head.

 

[Stryder06]

The statutes given to the israelites werent always good but they served a purpose...

Come again? So God gave Israel statutes that were bad? How do you figure that they weren't all good?

 

[ThinkFreeDom]

I've been trying to argue this a while now but the discussion seems to have been dropped.

I can cite multiple instances where Christ said something loving and timeless in direct contradiction to the violent geo-politically biased nonsense that the 'god' of the Old Testament said.

Have you read what Jesus said in Luke 19:27?

 

[JohnMarsten]

Come again? So God gave Israel statutes that were bad? How do you figure that they weren't all good?

well, Stryder, I have already understood that you are a black/white thinker... you have proven that a lot of times... but dont worry its not your faul but it rather mirrors your SDA upbringing...

Ezekiel 20:25 says...:

21“‘But the children rebelled against me: They did not follow my decrees, they were not careful to keep my laws—although the man who obeys them will live by them—and they desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in the desert. 22But I withheld my hand, and for the sake of my name I did what would keep it from being profaned in the eyes of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out. 23Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the desert that I would disperse them among the nations and scatter them through the countries, 24because they had not obeyed my laws but had rejected my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths, and their eyes [lusted] after their fathers’ idols. 25I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; 26I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborna—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord.’

 

[Pythons]

Well, it being our institution we will change it as we see fit. Even the Christian version of marriage has changed, it used to be that you couldn't marry a non-virgin.

Who educated you in this area of Church History?

Another made a point that some Statutes God gave were not good...
...This point, to a point is true.

Commandment = You shall do such & such.

Statute = Exactly how you are to correctly observe the commandment.

Judgments = What happens if you don't do the commandment AS the statute states.

Eze 20,24
Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols. Wherefore I gave them ALSO statutes that were NOT good, and judgments whereby they should not live

As an example consider the Sabbath - initially it was ONLY to demonstrate...
...How God would take care of EVERYTHING.
...A taste of what Adam and Eve had in Eden.

After that, and of course the calf incident God started to drill down into HOW these commandments...
...WERE to be observed and what was to happen when the statutes for the commandments were violated.
...Thus, if you violated the statute you violated the commandment and get the judgment.

Christ put an end to those types of things....
...Because homosexuality is not a valid Christian practice.
...And it violates the law of nature - it's simply an illness.
...Plain and simple.

 

[Stryder06]

well, Stryder, I have already understood that you are a black/white thinker... you have proven that a lot of times... but dont worry its not your faul but it rather mirrors your SDA upbringing...

It actually doesn't. I'm black in white in the way I think because that's the way I am. My sister and most of my friends think nothing like the way I do. All of them are devout Christians within the SDA church.

Ezekiel 20:25 says...:

21“‘But the children rebelled against me: They did not follow my decrees, they were not careful to keep my laws—although the man who obeys them will live by them—and they desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in the desert. 22But I withheld my hand, and for the sake of my name I did what would keep it from being profaned in the eyes of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out. 23Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the desert that I would disperse them among the nations and scatter them through the countries, 24because they had not obeyed my laws but had rejected my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths, and their eyes [lusted] after their fathers’ idols. 25I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; 26I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborna—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord.’

And exactly how does this text help out your position that some of the laws and statutes that God gave Israel weren't good for them?

 

[Stryder06]

As an example consider the Sabbath - initially it was ONLY to demonstrate...
...How God would take care of EVERYTHING.
...A taste of what Adam and Eve had in Eden.

Christ put an end to those types of things....

Careful Pythons. "Only to demonstrate how God would take care of things"? Exactly what "things" did Christ put an end to? Slither softly...

 

[ThinkFreeDom]

Who educated you in this area of Church History?

What has marriage got to do with Church history?

 

[SaraJarvis]

It is something we could stick to. It's simply something that many people don't stick to. And God doesn't want to strike people down for not being obedient. He wants them to repent. Israel has a history of apostasy, idol worship, and sabbath desecration. God never wiped them out. He called them to repent. It's the same with us.



I disagree. Of course I don't think we came from animals though so that could be part of the reason why. The nature we have now is not the nature we should have. It is a sinful nature, one that revels in selfishness. Most of the things we say are ok to do are actually quite harmful to us. Yet because we can take pleasure in them for a moment, we discard the part that is harmful and excuse our actions, taken exception with anyone who would strip away our "fun".



You think people should work for free? How do you define "menial"?



Not at all - "we wrestle not against flesh and blood..." I don't know what strings/tricks of light/etc one can use to walk on water with people swimming underneath you, or that will allow you to traverse several hundred flights of steps within seconds.



They don't have to be. The prophecy spells them out without having to name them. The attributes associated with each empire makes it plain. so much so, that again, people try to place the entire book of Daniel in another time period. Not to mention there are prophecies concerning the Catholic church in that book. Do you really think it's coincidence that Greece was represented by Bronze and Rome was represented by Iron?



Some people don't believe in Democracy. Doesn't give them the right to try to overthrow the government.



That you did. And I'm so anxious to show you the prophecies which explain why you thought the sabbath was Sunday. There's actually a book I'd suggest to you if you're interested.



For the same reason that he allows those who don't believe in Him to continue to live. Rain falls on the just and the unjust. Cancer to a believer is a trail no different then anything else. For those in Christ however, even if they should die, they will live again. Our life on this side of eternity is only a whisper in the wind. True life begins when we shall see Christ face to face. This entire situation goes deeper than anything you could probably imagine.



You do realize that you've insinuated that to be an intellectual, you can't have faith right? You can learn the same things about science without throwing in "It happend X Billion years agao" or "Over the span of X million years ABC happened." In truth, by doing that, you're actually lying, because it hasn't been proven yet. But because scientist know they CAN'T prove it, they simply condition people to believe it's true by teaching it as fact, and discouraging any other theory that involves God. Why not teach both ideas and allow the child to make up their own mind?



It's not speculation. It's based on the pattern shown. Our understanding of the bible is line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little. But of course, spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

We don't stick to it because it would be far too difficult to stick to, though. If that was something else that was punishable by death, and we don't take it quite as seriously, then why is sex outside of marriage taken so seriously?

Yeah, I think we're coming at that from different angles. =p Alright then - what about women and how they're portrayed in the bible? We don't stick to that, and women are now seen as equal. Well, I'd disagree with that, because people still have negative views, but in the eyes of the law we're equal. What are your views on that?

No, no! Not work for free at all. They should be given better wages. More people would go to work if the pay was better - rather than pennies for a day of dull, unstimulating work.

I don't know how these tricks would work, either; I'm not a magician, but in my opinion I don't think that it's anything supernatural. Just extremely clever illusions.

Hmm, I'm sure that they would have forseen these things by simply observing the way in which society was heading. It's the same as having your palm read. Or Tarot card readings. Simple phrases that people associate with other events in their lives.

Hmm, I like Marx's views on democracy.

Sure, suggest a book! I'll look into it. I'm always up for a new book.

But isn't it unfair of him to let those who dedicate their lives to him suffer? That I don't understand.

No, I'm not saying that you can't be intellectual if you have faith. Besides, AN intellectual is usually defined as someone who has an interest in fields such as: "philosophy, literary criticism, sociology, law, political analysis, theoretical science." Room for many more examples there, but you see what I mean? Theology is an entirely different ball-game. Perhaps I should have used the term 'critical thinker'. I'm not questioning intelligence. Anyway, the child can still make up its mind; they have R.E classes. Let the child become a critical thinker, THEN make up its mind. If it decides to be religious AFTER learning critical thinking, then surely its faith would be stronger?

What is the pattern that is shown, though?

 

[FreeinChrist]

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