Oathkeeper pleads guilty to seditious conspiracy

[civilwarbuff]

You should really keep your day job. Really.

I am keeping it.....I am retired.......LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL......

 

[Bradskii]

... examples of pushing back STRONGLY against government (both federal and local).

There's a lot of current pushback in Australia in regard to the current government. We're in the middle of an election campaign. What that pushback entails will be votes cast with a view to changing who is in charge. That's what democratic countries do. They vote every so often and if they don't like the incumbents then they vote for the opposition (or independents). That's push back. Organising leaflet drops. Garnering support. Making one's voice heard. Letters, emails, fronting up at town hall meetings. Donating to tbe candidate of your choice. Time and money.

It doesn't include storming Parliament House. It doesn't include violence or even threats of violence. It doesn't include sedition (and some have pleaded guilty as charged). And none of these things used to happen in the US either. There has always been a peaceful transition of power. Until recently.

And you call it 'pushback'.

As I said, if you don't recognise that you have a problem then you are actually part of the problem yourself.

 

[Pommer]

So it was acutely distressing to watch the scenes unfold at the Capitol. It's acutely depressing to see both right and left politicising everything. Where on earth are the reasonable men and women who can get you out of this mess? Where is the attempt to find common ground going to come from? Whatever happened to consensus politics

Well, see this is the problem with a two-party system.
Eventually liberal and conservatives will polarize around their parties (so, rather than the liberal or conservative political philosophy being paramount, by picking your party you’re signing up to champion “your side” no matter what your personal politics are).

When this stable-but-volatile (Schrodinger's Politics?) scenario plays out, the stability of the overall left/right paradigm is ensured, allowing minority factions within parties to vie for power within their own side and slowly, ideology will again become more important than “party unity”.
The country can take some wild swings going to the left for fifty years followed by a wave of nostalgia for the “good old days” and a tilt to the right for going on 23 years now.
Okay, the PPC-ACA was “lefty” for 2009 but when was the last time we heard about “repeal and replace”?
It’s so mainstream that nobody is attacking it anymore.

Since the GOP shucked GHWB’s conservatism for the current heavy dose of right-wing populism (which has no underlying philosophy beyond “we’ll show you how to run a Government, just give us the keys!”) the rights to the “conservative-party” is up for grabs.
Democrats could defend and expand the legacies of FDR, HST, DDE, JFK, LBJ, WJC, BHO and JRB, staking these out as upholding the values of the last eighty years.

 

[Bradskii]

Well, see this is the problem with a two-party system.
Eventually liberal and conservatives will polarize around their parties (so, rather than the liberal or conservative political philosophy being paramount, by picking your party you’re signing up to champion “your side” no matter what your personal politics are).

When this stable-but-volatile (Schrodinger's Politics?) scenario plays out, the stability of the overall left/right paradigm is ensured, allowing minority factions within parties to vie for power within their own side and slowly, ideology will again become more important than “party unity”.
The country can take some wild swings going to the left for fifty years followed by a wave of nostalgia for the “good old days” and a tilt to the right for going on 23 years now.
Okay, the PPC-ACA was “lefty” for 2009 but when was the last time we heard about “repeal and replace”?
It’s so mainstream that nobody is attacking it anymore.

Since the GOP shucked GHWB’s conservatism for the current heavy dose of right-wing populism (which has no underlying philosophy beyond “we’ll show you how to run a Government, just give us the keys!”) the rights to the “conservative-party” is up for grabs.
Democrats could defend and expand the legacies of FDR, HST, DDE, JFK, LBJ, WJC, BHO and JRB, staking these out as upholding the values of the last eighty years.

It may be starting to change in Australia. There is a general discontent with party politics - it's just 'more of the same'. So there's quite a few independent candidates running this time.

We used to have a third party - also called the Democrats, who were always someway back in third place, but whose slogan was, literally 'We're here to keep the b******s honest' (the word has a different connotation down here). But they faded from the scene. And the independents (mostly women as it it turns out - perhaps as a result of perceived mysogeny in politics) are taking their place.

I'm begining to wonder if democracy is all it's cracked up to be...

 

[DaisyDay]

Edit; sorry for large bold font it just pasted that way and I didn’t know how to fix it!

In case no one has addressed this yet, highlight/select the what you want unformatted, then click on the little eraser icon in the right corner.

 

[civilwarbuff]

And you call it 'pushback'.

That's exactly what it is and has happened several times over the past 200+ years. This is what I mean when I say you don't live here so no way can you understand it.....just how it is. That is why I don't comment of foreign politics; I don't understand their particular flavor just as you don't understand ours.

 

[dzheremi]

That's exactly what it is and has happened several times over the past 200+ years. This is what I mean when I say you don't live here so no way can you understand it.....just how it is. That is why I don't comment of foreign politics; I don't understand their particular flavor just as you don't understand ours.

I live 'here', and I don't agree with your outlook at all. No matter what you want to call it, what it is is seditious conspiracy. That's what the person in question pleaded guilty to.

If they can admit it what it is, why won't you?

 

[Bradskii]

That's exactly what it is and has happened several times over the past 200+ years. This is what I mean when I say you don't live here so no way can you understand it.....just how it is. That is why I don't comment of foreign politics; I don't understand their particular flavor just as you don't understand ours.

It's my experience, and I mean my actual experience - not anecdotal, that Americans are mostly unaware of what goes on outside of the US. And this is my personal opinion, but it's those who are relatively cognisant of how the world works ouside the US of A who were most horrified at the events of Jan 6. They realised how dangerous, and unprecedented, those actions were. It wasn't seen as a protest. As just some 'pushback' to unpopular policies. It was an actual assault on democracy.

You seem completely unaware of this. As do a very large proportion of your fellow citizens. And that is an even bigger problem. Because if you think it was no big deal, then there's very little to prevent it happening again.

And that's chilling.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I live 'here', and I don't agree with your outlook at all. No matter what you want to call it, what it is is seditious conspiracy. That's what the person in question pleaded guilty to.

If they can admit it what it is, why won't you?

Sedition is a matter of whether you are serious or not.....or successful or not......I don't believe a single person there ever had the sincere belief that they could or would be successful in overthrowing the gov. Believe what you will......

"But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security."

According to you this is also sedition.....except they were successful.....

 

[civilwarbuff]

And this is my personal opinion, but it's those who are relatively cognisant of how the world works ouside the US of A who were most horrified at the events of Jan 6. They realised how dangerous, and unprecedented, those actions were. It wasn't seen as a protest. As just some 'pushback' to unpopular policies. It was an actual assault on democracy.

It had absolutely no effect outside the US. Heck it really didn't even have an effect in the US.....Life went on......and still goes on unaffected by it. Get over it.

You seem completely unaware of this. As do a very large proportion of your fellow citizens. And that is an even bigger problem. Because if you think it was no big deal, then there's very little to prevent it happening again.

And that's chilling.

Maybe to you but not to us......we expect it from time to time......it is, after all, what this country was born on.......
"In the same year, 1787, in regard to what is known as Shays’ Rebellion, he wrote another friend, “God forbid that we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion.” A lack of rebelliousness among the people would demonstrate “a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. . . And what country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance?”

 

[Bradskii]

Sedition is a matter of whether you are serious or not.....or successful or not......I don't believe a single person there ever had the sincere belief that they could or would be successful in overthrowing the gov. Believe what you will......

"But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security."

According to you this is also sedition...

According to anyone who knows anything at all about the War of Independence it was sedition. But in one case we have 'a long Train of Abuses and Usurpation' by an unelected monarchy. In the other, a democratically elected government, of the people, by the people and for the people.

How chilling is it that the events of Jan 6 can be compared to the War of Independence. Which was fought to bring democracy the the states. Whereas Jan 6 was an attempt to subvert the very processes that the war sought to bring about.

The founding fathers would be ashamed to have their struggles co-opted in such a manner.

 

[Bradskii]

It had absolutely no effect outside the US.

You wouldn't know. You have already admitted that you aren't interested in the world outside your borders. It has been explained to you how the world now views the US. I gave quite a few examples. I could spend the rest if the day giving you dozens more.

But you wouldn't be interested in reading them. And I really don't know if you don't care or you honestly think it doesn't matter. I don't know which is worse...

 

[civilwarbuff]

The founding fathers would be ashamed to have their struggles co-opted in such a manner.

Nah, you got that all wrong....which of course is due to you not being a lifelong resident of this country. Those that have come here from places where gov abused their rights seem to me to understand far more how valuable the right of resistance to gov really is. I believe you and your fellow political believers have long since forgotten that......and I pity you and yours for that. I hope we never lose that will to resist.

 

[civilwarbuff]

You wouldn't know. You have already admitted that you aren't interested in the world outside your borders. It has been explained to you how the world now views the US. I gave quite a few examples. I could spend the rest if the day giving you dozens more.

But you wouldn't be interested in reading them. And I really don't know if you don't care or you honestly think it doesn't matter. I don't know which is worse...

Your opinion is duly noted......and ignored.......

 

[Bradskii]

I hope we never lose that will to resist.

But you are resisting democracy. You were not fighting for it. You were not trying to overthrow an unelected government. You weren't trying to defend your rights against those who refused to allow you representation. You were attempting to deny the democratic process itself.

Fighting for democracy was something for which the US was known (with exceptions that generally prove the rule). Now you are known for trying to usurp it in your own country.

 

[civilwarbuff]

But you are resisting democracy.

That is part of our democracy and has been since our founding. It is things like this that you simply are unable to come to grips with.....you believe that only your concept of democracy is the correct one and therefore everyone who does not follow that is some seditionist or anarchist. I don't expect other countries to follow our concept of democracy; they need to find their own way.

Fighting for democracy was something for which the US was known (with exceptions that generally prove the rule). Now you are known for trying to usurp it in your own country.

Oh? Is that what we were doing in Vietnam (as well as other places)?......fighting for democracy? You seem to have some strange concepts of democracy from my POV.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

The signers of the Declaration committed treason. The only reason they didn’t hang for their crime was because they successfully broke away from the country they committed treason against.

Those who tried to overthrow the election on January 6th committed treason as well. They were losers and failed and if there was any justice in this country they would hang for their crimes so there would be no second chances for them to overthrow this country’s government.

A putsch that is not properly punished is a dress rehearsal. The United States is playing with fire by not making sure none of these traitors will even be able to think of trying to overthrow this country again.