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O/F OSAS vs. fall from grace

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Blackhawk, Apr 11, 2002.

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  1. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "They tasted the Holy Spirit. Doesn't that imply baptism? "

    Nope, I don't think so. People feel the presence of the Holy Spirit before baptism. They were confronted with God and turned way. Just like tasting a candy bar and saying, yeah, its the best thing I've ever had, but I don't want it. I believe free will doesn't stop after salvation, but the person that has salvation will never give it up and cannot give it up because they are a new creation.
     
  2. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Louisbooth, I judge by this last sentence that you believe those in sin have no free will, am I correct?

    Here, though you say free will doesn't stop after salvation, meaning that while we were still in sin, we had free will. Am I misunderstanding what you are trying to say? Forgive me, but my computer is shot so I'm having to do a lot of reading quickly and I'm afraid I don't understand. Were you being facetious in the first post?

    Thank you,

    Neal
     
  3. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    The people who don't want to lose their salvation won't. Why? Because when they turn to God and ask for forgiveness, and ask to be stronger in their faith, he won't turn them down. He will forgive them, according to his unconditonal love and grace.

    Love ya.
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Here, though you say free will doesn't stop after salvation, meaning that while we were still in sin, we had free will. Am I misunderstanding what you are trying to say? Forgive me, but my computer is shot so I'm having to do a lot of reading quickly and I'm afraid I don't understand. Were you being facetious in the first post? "

    I believe you have free will in and out of salvation but you are bound by your nature. You can color anywhere so long as you say within the lines :)
     
  5. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Gotcha...Thank you.

    Neal
     
  6. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    That's all well and good, but it doesn't say "tasted" the Holy Spirit. it says "partook of". I misquoted. Look at the verse more closely. I even corrected myself in that post, but still, my bad. I did say "tasted" first.

    :eek: sorry
     
  7. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    In a perfect world, Louis, that is exactly what would happen. But human nature and Free Will are not so easily overcome.

    What is your message to the person who HAS salvation, but then screws up afterwards? If you tell him that screwing up is IMPOSSIBLE after being "Saved," then he will think the feelings he had before screwing up were invalid! You can't SAY that they were inadequate! What a wretched burden to put on someone for being fallible! ("Obviously, you didn't pray hard enough and get a TRUE infusion of the Holy Spirit!") You are condemning that poor person, who would have every right in the world to say, "Well, if my original experience wasn't of God, then why bother?"

    That isn't your call, Louis! According to St Paul, judgment doesn't belong to man, but to God.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  8. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    I just read the entire thread, all nine pages. (Maybe I read fast a couple of places, but still read it...) It seems to me there is one theme that is overlooked. But that in a moment...

    It is difficult to discuss "OSAS", because those in the discussion are holding to FOUR VERY DIFFERENT VIEWS. First, there is "predestination", or more properly phrased, "Predestined Election". That God CREATES some for Heaven, these He will irresistably save; and God CREATES the rest FOR HELL, these are quite beyond redemption.

    The second view is "Carnal Christianity", where "salvation is a RELATIONSHIP but not FELLOWSHIP with Christ". Merely reciting "The Sinner's Prayer" accomplishes salvation---the "believer" can remain in fornication, adultery, drunkenness, carousing, the like; it doesn't matter, he/she is still saved. "Jesus may well deny them before the Father, but THEY WILL STILL WALK THE STREETS OF HEAVEN!"

    The third is "Eternal Security". These believe that God reveals Himself to all men, and calls ALL MEN to salvation. BUT---once "IN", they can never get "OUT". God will dynamically interfere to forbid the believer from ever "falling".

    I hold to the fourth view. Like the Catholics, salvation is our state, eternal life our goal. Eternal life is not acquired until death. But, we can "grasp" eternal life, if our current STATE is saved. Unlike the Catholics, salvation is NOT a lifetime-work, but a STATE. Because of the "overlooked theme" I mentioned at first.

    What is the "over looked theme"? Simply:

    WHAT IS SALVATION?

    The Bible is very clear on what salvation is. Salvation, in a word, is FELLOWSHIP. With/in/through Jesus. 1Jn1. This "fellowship" IS identically "born again" (Jn3:3), a "new creation" (2Cor5:17). Perfect harmony with 1Jn5, where it says: "He who HAS THE SON HAS THE LIFE! I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW you have eternal life."

    Salvation is "JESUS-IN-YOU". Gal2:20!!!

    If salvation is so completely defined as "fellowship with a real, sentient, personal God, in the person of Jesus Christ", then is it rejectable? Scripturally?

    YES!!!!!

    I am finishing writing a text on the subject, in which I discuss (in great depth) all three of the OSAS views, with the Scriptures they use to support (and how ALL of those Scriptures can be understood in a OSNAS view), and then the OSNAS view with Scriptures that CANNOT EVER accomodate OSAS view.

    I did not read a single verse in this entire thread that is not covered in the "OSAS" text. I am loathe at this moment to post the entire text, but perfectly willing to post anything on request.

    For instance, when John said: "Watch yourselves, that you miht not lose what we (you) have accomplished, but that you may receive full reward. Anyone who goes too far (goes on ahead) and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, HAS NOT GOD." 2:1:8-9 In light of his previous letter (1:5:12), is there any POSSIBILITY that John believed in OSAS? No!

    Peter did not believe it. James did not believe it. Paul did not believe it. Jude did not believe it. JESUS did not believe in OSAS.

    As I said, I shall post ANY portion on request. (If I post the whole thing now, this thread will grow another 9 pages). I deal with Romans 9, with Romans 8, with essentially ALL of the passages that OSAS people use. (THat is because it has been a work in progress, with my OSAS brothers and sisters peppering me with questions, POLISHING the writing THEMSELVES! :D ) I fully intend it for publication, because I am not aware of another text that goes into the issue so comprehensively, with so much Scripture, with so much Greek references...

    The reason the issue matters to me, is because it cuts to the NATURE of salvation.

    Salvation is JESUS IN YOU. Fellowship. Simply, and succinctly.

    :)
     
  9. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    :scratch:

    Are you saying this is true or false?

    Yours Truly,
    (Lost as Usual)
    Shane
     
  10. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    "Eternal life is not acquired until death. "

    A pure contradiction of scripture.

    1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    If you have Jesus in you, you already HAVE eternal life!

    Common sense:

    John 10:28 -- And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    If we only get eternal life after we die, then Jesus shld have said: "I give them eternal life, AFTER they perish!" :(
     
  11. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    Yes, but there is this contradiction between Hebrews 6:4-6 and John 10:28 that I am trying to get someone to address. The only way I can make both of them work together is to believe that there are the elect, whom God knew and protected, and the non-elect who nevertheless for a time partook of the kingdom and of the Holy Spirit.

    This leads directly to the concept of antichrist, and also to the understanding many have of the "Beast" as "the" antichrist, since he comes claiming to be god. These people operate within the church. You can tell them because they teach people to walk disorderly, encouraging sin. There are verses and verses concerning this....

    I am stuck having to look at all verses, not just the comfortable ones. I do not feel comfortable simply ignoring what is not comfortable. :p
     
  12. fablesarereal

    fablesarereal Member

    143
    +0
    I'd like to posit that if people are constantly bound by a fear that they will lose their salvation by not doing enough good works, it will still not be good enough to live up to a standard that God requires and if someone makes it into heaven that he will find himself pretty lonely for Romans 3 speaks heavilly about how none are righteous especially 3:9-31 where many misquote all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God therefore give up have a ball and you'll go to heaven. There is a line of tension between sinning so that you can show how much God loves you and being scared to come to God when we mess up. If God truly loves us in the way he says he does we should know that he understands that we fall occasionally. Remember 1 John 4:10 defines God's love not that we loved him, but he loved us. He wouldn't fight so hard to get us if he was just going to kick us out of the family after an authentic statement of faith was made. And that perfect love drives out all fear in 4:18 The reason some people seem to terribly fall away could quite possibly be because they were away all along like the parable of the grain and the weeds. People can seem quite knowledgable about the scriptures and do many good deeds and never have an intimate relationship with God and therefore at the time of judgement will be separated from where they appeared to be and severely disciplined according to their lack of faith and their abundance of good works will be irrelevant.
     
  13. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    False. Paul plainly states in Romans 1, "They are without excuse". If "predestined-election" was valid, they would certainly have an excuse: "But that's the way God MADE me! I'm PREDESTINED!" PE adherents attempt to evade this logic by saying, "Yeah, but, EVERYONE deserves Hell, by their own FAULT! And God only interferes in SOME, saving them by His will! The others perish because of their own fault!" This doesn't remove the premise---if God interferes in some, and leaves the rest condemned, then He has, by negligence, condemned them to Hell. There would still be an excuse. The only way "there is no excuse" is if each person HAS THE CHOICE!
    Do you have your "new body"? Can you walk through doors as Jesus did? Have you laid aside sexuality? If not, then you are not presently IN "eternal life", are you? We often must understand some Scriptures in light of others. When 1Jn5 says "he who has the Son has (eternal) life", it is perfectly consistent to understand it is speaking of salvation, which is one's GRASP of "eternal life". In 1Pet1 it says we have "an inheritance, which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in Heaven for you". RESERVED. That means, not-present-now, but reserved. Eternal life is Heaven. Our inheritance is eternal life. Salvation is our GRASP of that inheritance. Heaven may well be eternal, but according to Scripture, our salvation, our grasp of that eternal life, though NEVER REVOKABLE (the gifts and calling are irrevocable), is quite REJECTABLE...

    If Peter believed in OSAS, then why would he write, "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain of His calling and election of you; for as long as you practice these things (see the list---"You will know them by their fruits"!), you will never stumble; for in this way the EISODOS-GATE-ENTRANCE of Heaven will be abundantly provided to you". This is presented as "mutually exclusive", IE the entrance to Heaven will be provided IN NO OTHER WAY. BUT---"he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins!" Is it possible to have forgotten former purification, EXCEPT one onces was saved, and now is not? PETER did not believe in OSAS... (2:1:9-11)
    Then you believe the Holy Spirit indwelt those-who-were-never-saved? Really? No. John10:28 says "no ONE can SIEZE-FORCIBLY-REMOVE-YOU from His hand". It simply does not say "you can never leave by disbelieving". In Eph1:13 it says, "you were sealed with the Holy Spirit" (Eph4:30, UNTO, not UNTIL), on the condition of your belief ("Having believed, you were sealed"). If that belief ends, will the seal remain unbroken? No.

    Heb 6 1-6 hinges upon one single word. SINCE. The Greek for "fall away" is an active since, better translated, "WHILE". So that it really reads, "For it is impossible to restore them to repentance WHILE THEY ARE FALLING AWAY, SINCE they crucify Christ to themselves anew and hold Him to contempt". The problem is not on God's side, it's that if they become hardened and contemptuous, they will not WANT to repent. WHILE they are falling away. But if the return to belief, they WILL BE RESTORED TO REPENTANCE! The "crucify anew" perfectly parallels Heb10:26, "For if we continue sinning willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of fire that consumes the adversaries". Jesus only died once. Without repentance, it is as if He would-have-had-to-die-again-and-again...
    "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? May it never be! How shall we who have died to sin still live in it???" Rm6:1 "Carnal Christianity" is the easiest one to disprove. That Heb10:26 verse I just quoted does a very good job...
    The "catch-22", "they-were-never-saved-in-the-first-place". But Peter says they were (2:2:20), Paul says they were (Heb6:4-5 {I think Paul wrote it}). The problem with OSAS, is the persistence of so many Scriptures like 1Tim4:1. To "fall-away-from-the-faith", do you not first have to be IN that faith???

    :)
     
  14. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Just a question...does everyone here understand that those of us who say that a loss of salvation is possible do not say that every sin will separate you from God, only mortal ones? A foul up now in then is expected, but only a definate turning of the will against God is damning.

    Neal
     
  15. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    Touche', Neal. Very good. Christians do sin, but our attitude of repentance persists. When we sin, we repent and ask forgiveness, He forgives (and forgets!).

    But---when we sin, and do NOT repent, and sin again-and-again, when sinning-ness becomes a PRACTICE, then (and only then) are we in peril! If we are in fellowship with Christ, Jesus-in-our-hearts, filled with the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to practice sin. (This is why "Carnal Christianity" is such an abomination! And Paul very clearly says "those who PRACTICE sin WILL NOT go to Heaven!) Gal5:19-20, 1Cor6:9-10.

    :)
     
  16. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    I would have liked to have broken your quote up a bit more to address specific points, but it is so looong! :) I believe it is true that it is a matter of leaving, vs, being plucked away. But this does not do away with God's omniscience. God could prevent the leaving as well. God did indeed foreknow and predestine according to scripture. I feel the difference is that the idea that God is wrong for predestining those who He knew would reject Him to hell. He is not wrong. It is the person who is wrong. This is a hard sell to any atheist though, but the proof is in the difference in values and lifestyle, to me.

    The whole faith would be easier if there were no hell, wouldn't it? But then there's no justice, and all good work is made a mockery. It's hard, but that is how real life is. One of the reasons I find so much assurance in Christianity is there is no pretending that it is impossible to do harm or to be harmed in an eternal way. If eternity exists, it must be considered that eternal harm might possibly be done.
     
  17. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Shane,
    -----------------
    Yes, but there is this contradiction between Hebrews 6:4-6 and John 10:28 that I am trying to get someone to address.
    -----------------

    get your point bro, I've tried to explain them in my website. I've posted it here: Pls read and judge for yourself. Heb 6:4-6 is also covered. Hope it helps...

    Matthew 7:21 -- "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

    A rule of thumb in Bible study is to interpret difficult verses in the light of simple clear cut ones. We should not be building doctrines out of one or two difficult verses.

    That said, many have taken the above verse to mean that Christians can lose their salvation if they do not do what God tells them to do. To them, the "will of my Father" means just about everything God tells them to do. But if that is the case, who can enter heaven? Who can do everything that God tells him to do? What about doing 80 per cent of it? Is that enough for a perfect God? It all boils down to salvation by works!

    Obviously, the "will of my Father" here is not to be interpreted generally as "anything and everything that God tells us to do". So, what is it, specifically?

    Note that the context in this verse is salvation -- "enter the kingdom of heaven". So, the Father's "will" should relate, specifically, to salvation, and it does!

    * John 6:39 -- And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

    * John 6:40 -- For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

    God's will in Matthew 7:21 is simply salvation for man. In fact, He is not willing that any should perish.

    * Matthew 18:14 -- In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.
    * 2 Peter 3:9 -- The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    So, how do we fulfil the will of God in Matthew 7:21? What should we do? Actually, there's nothing we can do except to believe, since everything that needs to be done for man to be saved has already been done perfectly by Jesus. We cannot add to it. Our part is simply to believe!

    * John 6:29Ê-- Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

    So, in Matthew 7:21, Jesus is saying that only those who believe in Him will enter the kingdom of heaven!

    Matthew 7:22,23 -- Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

    "On that day" refers to the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. When He returns to earth in power and great glory (Matthew 24:30) to reign as King, the whole world will know that He is the Christ. At that time, many non-believers will call Him "Lord", out of fear or because it will be obvious to them that He is the Christ. But it will be too late then, because the time is up, the Master has returned! They should have believed earlier. They can't be saved then by calling Him "Lord", since faith will not be required as they will be able to see with their own eyes that Jesus is the Son of God!

    Therefore, Jesus will tell these people that He never knew them and to depart. Afterall, they never had a personal relationship with Him, and calling Him "Lord" then will just be a vain attempt to start one!

    But how can we be sure that these people in Matthew 7:22,23 are not Christians who have "lost their salvation"?

    The key lies in the word "never", when Jesus says "I never knew you". Jesus would be lying if He used the word "never" because He would have known them at least once -- perhaps the first 10 years of their Christian life before they "renounced" Him and "lost their salvation", assuming that were possible.

    So, who are these people who prophesied, drived out demons and performed miracles?

    It must be noted that the "evildoers" themselves are making these claims, not Jesus. It sure sounds like they are saying those things in a desperate attempt to gain the Lord's recognition and get saved!

    It could be Syed Baba, some Taoist spiritualist or a cult leader saying those things "on that day", perhaps with a misguided belief that they were doing it all in the name of God. Even today, such non-believers do have power (demonic in nature) to "heal" the sick, "tell" the future or have a demon speak through them, and "drive away" another demon if the demon that they serve holds a higher authority in Satan's kingdom.

    Hebrews 6:4-6 -- It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

    The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish believers and non-believers, not so much to the Gentile church, although Gentile Christians can benefit greatly by reading the book. Contrast this book to Paul's epistles to the churches and the difference is quite clear.

    The Jews were deeply entrenched in the laws, customs and sacrifices of Judaism. That is why Hebrews focuses on the fact that Jesus is the final sacrifice and the High Priest of high priests, and that He supercedes Moses, Abraham and all the other heroes of faith mentioned in the Old Testament (Hebrews 12:2).

    Previously, mainly out of spiritual blindness, the Jews had failed to recognise Jesus as the Messiah, rejected His message of salvation by grace and crucified Him.

    Now, after knowing better -- having "been enlightened", having had the gospel explained to them via the Apostles, having seen miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit in Acts -- if they continue to reject Christ, they are in a sense putting Jesus back on the cross -- "crucifying the Son of God all over again".

    Is it possible that persons "who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age" can be non-believers?

    Yes, Judas Iscariot was one such person. He had been with Jesus for about three years, sat under His teaching and even seen the power Jesus demonstrated through the Holy Spirit. Yet, Judas was not a believer. He never addressed Jesus as "Lord". You cannot find it in the Bible. Judas had only addressed Jesus as "Master" (Matthew 26:25).

    Similarly, today, there are many people who have "tasted" Jesus and the gospel; seen miracles performed right in front of them or even on them, and yet turned away from God.

    Note also that the verse only says "enlightened", "tasted" and "shared". These are not words the Bible associates with being saved. We know that salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8). We don't get saved by being "enlightened", by "tasting" or by "sharing"! All that is good but we must still believe in our hearts and confess Jesus as our Lord and righteousness (Romans 10:9).

    2 Peter 2:20,21 -- If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

    Who are "they" here? It becomes clear when we read the whole chapter. In fact, the first verse already tells us that "they" are the "false teachers" (and the like) who deny Christ. And people who deny Christ cannot be Christians!

    * 2 Peter 2:1 -- But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

    The entire chapter talks about the terribly sinful lifestyles of these people and the punishment that awaits them. Besides introducing "destructive heresies", they are "not afraid to slander celestial beings", "blaspheme in matters they do not understand", behave like "brute beasts", "carouse in broad daylight", have "eyes full of adultery", "nevery stop sinning", are "experts in greed", "appeal to the lustful desires of sinful human nature" and so on. People who live like that are certainly not Christians.

    In fact, Peter makes a distinction between such "ungodly" and "lawless" people, and "righteous" and "godly" Christians, when he talks about Noah's flood, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. In other words, there is a clear "they" (the lawless non-believers) and "you" (the Christian) differentiation.

    * 2 Peter 2:5-9 -- if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

    The last verse in this chapter also shows us that Peter is not talking about Christians.

    * 2 Peter 2:22 -- Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

    The Bible usually refers to believers as "sheep" and non-believers as "goats" or "wolves". Here, the terms "dog" and "sow" are used. Straightaway, we know that the verse is not refering to Christians. Also, it does not say "a sheep transforms into a dog again and returns to its vomit". Once you are born again and have become a "sheep" belonging to the Good Shepherd, Jesus Christ, you cannot lose your salvation and turn back into a goat or dog again! You will never find such analogies in the Bible.

    Finally, "knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" or having "known the way of righteousness" (verses 20 and 21) does not make one a Christian. There are Bible scholars who know Jesus Christ and the Gospel, and yet are not Christians. There are people who have attended church for many years who are not born again. My friend's mum was one such person. We both thought that she was a Christian, since she had been attending an Anglican church for many years. One Sunday morning, she attended our church service. When our Pastor gave the altar call, to our astonishment, she raised her hand, went to the front and prayed to receive Jesus Christ into her heart!

    The KJV translation shows more clearly that verses 20 and 21 refer only to head knowledge of Jesus Christ and not genuine conversion:

    * 2 Peter 2:20,21 [KJV] -- For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    In fact, in verse 21, it says that the "way of righteousness" was only "delivered" to them, to which they rejected it by turning their backs on it. A person who has been shown the way of righteousness -- Jesus Christ -- yet turn his back on the Saviour, is obviously not a Christian!

    more on OSAS at http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/index.html
     
  18. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    Bless you Andrew!
     
  19. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    First, please forgive me for errors in my posts. Somehow I typed the word "since", when I clearly meant to say, "the Greek for FALL AWAY is an active sense..." Oh call it brain-block, old age, whadever... I would have changed it, but the "edit post" doesn't work on my computer...
    I am stumped her. They consciously, free-willingly-chose to reject Him, and He foreknew this; so, they are sent to Hell because of their rebellion. How then is this predestined by God? The only verses I can find with the word, "predestined", (such as Rom8:29 & Eph1:5), are merey stating that "He predestines maturity for those who have chosen Him!" (Connect Eph1:5 with John1:12)
    Atheists have a problem with the premise that "apart from God none are good". They say, "Surely many good things have been done by non-Christians". Perhaps. But, it is a question of nature. According to Christian philosophy, man is inherently corrupt, apart from God can do some "good things", but can do nothing really of himself. While, atheism is founded on Humanism (in the 1933 Humanist Manifesto precept #1 ADMITS IT'S A RELIGION!)---man is inherently good, given time and opportunity, can achieve greatness. I believe history endorses the former...

    Andrew, may I very respectfully suggest that you read things more in detail. This forum, the Bible---details are missed if you go too fast. By your own words you contend that they "partook of the Holy Spirit but were never saved". I do not think that is possible. Besides, as I stated very clearly, the hinge of the passage, is SINCE. He asserts "they cannot be restored to repentence (salvation), SINCE". The words after "SINCE" plainly give the REASON. And the REASON, is because they have become hardened, CONTEMPTUOUS of Jesus...

    Chapter 6 harmonizes with chapter 3, where it warns: "Take care, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God". How is that possible??? That a BRETHREN, a SAVED PERSON can suddenly have an "evil unbelieving heart"? Next verse: "But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called today, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin!" Crystal clear. Or was this passage "speaking to someone ELSE"???

    Can't go without reading the NEXT verse: "For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end!" Is there any way this "IF" allows "OSAS"??? If you still say "yes", then please accept my challenge. Right now, please read Col1:22-23, and tell me whether or not Paul considered it POSSIBLE to NOT be "moved away from the hope of the Gospel". Anyone game? (HINT: the "HOPE", is JESUS!)

    In 2Pet2, you have simply not read the passage carefully. The "false prophets/teachers", are they who NEVER cease from sin (vs 14). Do you understand, the FALSE, never cease from sin---they NEVER have "escaped the defilements of the world".

    The most important verse that you missed, is verse 18. The FALSE, seek to entice the TRUE, the "ontos-apofuego", which is Greek for TRULY ESCAPED. What is "knowledge"? EPIGNOSIS. Clear and true knowledge. Of the LORD AND SAVIOR Jesus Christ. Please read chapter 1, of 2Pet, verses 1-4. THat word for "knowledge" in verse 2, where undeniably it is speaking to US-WHO-ARE-SAVED, is "epignosis", clear-and-true knowledge. There is no way you can accept the "escapees" of chapter 1 as saved (and you also cannot deny that they ARE), and NOT accept that the "escapees" of chapter 2 WERE ALSO saved. But they have "become entangled in the defilements of the world and overcome. Far better to have never KNOWN (epignosis variant) the way of righteousness..."

    It just doesn't work to contend "they were never saved". They were, and they fell. Crystal clear. There is only one way that "OSAS" can accomodate 2Pet2, it is to dismiss it entirely. IE, "dispensationism". "Oh, that was a DIFFERENT dispensation than us, it doesn't APPLY! IGNORE IT!!!"

    Don't be embarassed about missing verse 18, I've been in that position plenty of times...

    :)

    PS: I w
     
  20. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    I am stumped HERE.

    Still can't edit. Hit the "edit" button, it loads a blue screen, with the Christianforums logo, then STOPS. Rest of the page is blue...

    And when I see my mistakes I am blue too...

    ;)
     
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