[NYT] Old Latin Mass Finds New American Audience, Despite Pope's Disapproval

[Gnarwhal]

This rube of a NYT writer is trying to insinuate that all Traditional Catholics are also MAGA people. Maybe there's a correlation in values but it's a ridiculous broad stroke meant to paint traditionalists as dangerous radicals and extremists (for the record MAGA people aren't any of those things either, but that's what the dominant narrative in our culture wants you to think).

That said, I appreciate the shoutout the article makes to Alex Begin, a laymen from the Archdiocese of Detroit who has spent years training priests how to celebrate the Latin Mass through his Extraordinary Faith Celebrant Training program. I also appreciate the really nice photos of the Mass in the article. So have a look!

DETROIT — Eric Agustin’s eight children used to call the first day of the week “Party Sunday.” The family would wake up, attend a short morning Mass at a Catholic parish near their house, then head home for lunch and an afternoon of relaxing and watching football.​

​

But this summer, the family made a “big switch,” one of his teenage sons said on a recent Sunday afternoon outside St. Joseph Shrine, the family’s new parish. At St. Joseph, the liturgy is ornate, precisely choreographed and conducted entirely in Latin. The family drives an hour round trip to attend a service that starts at 11 a.m. and can last almost two hours.​

Interesting to note that in the third paragraph she insinuates that of all the various sorts of people who value the Latin Mass, none of them are simply "Catholics who take their faith seriously" which would be most accurate. She's denigrating their motives and reducing it to aesthetic preference or the naïveté of a convert and then proceeds to call the whole group a rising "right-wing strain on American Christianity".

If you want to see what direction the secular world wants the Church to go, read this article. It's clear that it views a passionate, masculine, Divinely-lead Church as a threat and it prefers a neutered, feminized, compromised Church instead.

Old Latin Mass Finds New American Audience, Despite Pope’s Disapproval (Published 2022)

An ancient form of Catholic worship is drawing in young traditionalists and conservatives. But it signals a divide within the church.

www.nytimes.com

 

[atpollard]

There are 595 places in the US to attend a Latin Mass according to THIS: United States – Latin Mass Directory

 

[JimR-OCDS]

They're only finding the TLM more reverent because those currently attending are like minded
when it comes to reverence.

Make the TLM the ordinary where it's celebrated in all parishes, and reverence will decline.

If you doubt me, got to Mass at a monastery like the Trappists, or Benedictines. The reverence
is greater than the parishes that have the TLM.

 

[Gnarwhal]

There are 595 places in the US to attend a Latin Mass according to THIS: United States – Latin Mass Directory

Certainly that number shrank because of Traditionis Custodes, and may continue to do so depending on different bishops.

They're only finding the TLM more reverent because those currently attending are like minded
when it comes to reverence.

Make the TLM the ordinary where it's celebrated in all parishes, and reverence will decline.

If you doubt me, got to Mass at a monastery like the Trappists, or Benedictines. The reverence
is greater than the parishes that have the TLM.

I have (Trappist, Abbey of New Clairvaux) and I think it's about the same. The issue isn't that the TLM is a "niche" Mass right now, it's that the fabric and the structure of the Mass itself doesn't depend on the laity for it's nature. It's certainly true of a novus ordo that its attitude is dependent on the people who attend it because it's designed from the ground up to incorporate laymen. If you have a novus ordo where the behavior of the laymen is dignified then odds are the Mass itself reflects that dignity, if you don't then it devolves into a crypto-protestant sideshow.

But this is where the TLM's ad orientem posture is more than symbolic of the priest's offering the sacrifice on behalf of the laymen, it's also saying in a way "your attitude will not decide the tone." If you get some kid at a TLM who was brought against his will by his parents then he's gonna sit and sulk and have a bad attitude just like he would at a novus ordo but it doesn't matter because this Mass doesn't require lay participation to the degree that a novus ordo does. He may be sulking, but he won't be any more quiet than any other parishioner and his mental and emotional absence at the Mass won't be as conspicuous and drag the spirit of the Mass down with him.

The grand idea of inclusion and participation in the novus ordo consequentially intertwines the Mass with the attitude of the faithful too closely, and the result is that if you get a Mass full of quasi-Catholic iconoclasts then that's what it becomes. But you fill a TLM full of lukewarm Catholics then odds are they usually rise to the occasion.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Certainly that number shrank because of Traditionis Custodes, and may continue to do so depending on different bishops.

I have (Trappist, Abbey of New Clairvaux) and I think it's about the same. The issue isn't that the TLM is a "niche" Mass right now, it's that the fabric and the structure of the Mass itself doesn't depend on the laity for it's nature. It's certainly true of a novus ordo that its attitude is dependent on the people who attend it because it's designed from the ground up to incorporate laymen. If you have a novus ordo where the behavior of the laymen is dignified then odds are the Mass itself reflects that dignity, if you don't then it devolves into a crypto-protestant sideshow.

But this is where the TLM's ad orientem posture is more than symbolic of the priest's offering the sacrifice on behalf of the laymen, it's also saying in a way "your attitude will not decide the tone." If you get some kid at a TLM who was brought against his will by his parents then he's gonna sit and sulk and have a bad attitude just like he would at a novus ordo but it doesn't matter because this Mass doesn't require lay participation to the degree that a novus ordo does. He may be sulking, but he won't be any more quiet than any other parishioner and his mental and emotional absence at the Mass won't be as conspicuous and drag the spirit of the Mass down with him.

The grand idea of inclusion and participation in the novus ordo consequentially intertwines the Mass with the attitude of the faithful too closely, and the result is that if you get a Mass full of quasi-Catholic iconoclasts then that's what it becomes. But you fill a TLM full of lukewarm Catholics then odds are they usually rise to the occasion.

The Mass isn't nearly the same at Trappists and Benedictine monasteries as it is in the average Catholic parish.
If it is, either those parishes you have visited, are more reverent than usual, or the monasteries are irreverent.

I have not only visited Trappist and Benedictine monasteries near me, but I've also made retreats there. Both
say the Novus Ordo. The Trappist have translated all the Latin hymns and responses of the Mass and the Divine
Office, into English. The Benedictines say the Mass in English except for parts, which are chanted in Latin.
On Thursdays of the week, they say the entire Novus Ordo and the Liturgy of the Hours in Latin.
It's OK but having prayer in my own tongue is preferred. We think in our vernacular, so hearing Mass and
the LOTH's in a foreign language just makes it difficult to follow. It's still more reverent than any Catholic
parish I have even been to in my 71 years.

The priest saying the Mass with his back to the people, goes against the omnipresence of God, and the fact that
God dwells within us, not out in some cosmos.

In fact, the priest raising the Sacred Host above his head when celebrating ad orientem, was originally done as a means
for the poor people who had to stand in the back of the church, so they could see the host and know when it was transformed
into the body of Christ, hence also the bells. The rich paid for seats close to the front and for a time, were the only ones to
see the consecrated host. As many years past, the misunderstanding of what was taking place on the altar when the priest
raised the consecrated host, led people to believe that God was somewhere out there, rather than dwelling within themselves.

Over the centuries when the TLM was the ordinary, it developed a lot of ignorance by the people about God and the sacrament.

Even in the Novus Ordo with the priest facing the people, he's not supposed to raise the host above his head. The priest
becomes in persona Christ, and the son doesn't raise himself above his own head. I see young priest even at the National
Shrine raising the consecrated host above their head, and this is wrong. FYI, the spiritual assistant to the Discalced Carmelite Group
which I use to belong to, gave a series of talks on the history of the Mass. He, himself received a doctoral degree in Rome on
the Liturgy and Spirituality.

In the early Church, the Mass was celebrated Vox Populi, facing the people, as it was often said in homes or other hiding
places, as the Church was under persecution. Ad Orientem didn't become the norm until after Constantine legalized
Christianity and donated public buildings which were used as churches, The altar was a large shelf which was attached
to the back wall of the building. This was originally used to keep government document, but eventually served as an
altar and became the norm until Vatican II.

Just keep in mind that during these times and right through to recently, PA systems were either non-existent, or required large
microphones. When I attended Mass before Vatican II, we could only hear the priests and altar boys mumble the words in Latin.
Following along meant using the missal, but it was difficult as the priest usually finished before you could read the Latin and
translate it into English on the opposite page.

 

[Wolseley]

Well, she is certainly correct when she says there's a divide in the Church.

Should current trends continue, within five, six years or so, we'll have reverent Catholic Masses being conducted in catacombs by priests who can't stomach the Woke Virus any longer, and attended by Catholics who feel the same way, while the Vatican and the world hierarchies are all off wallowing in the sexual grooviness of Daddy Frankie's Church of What's Happening Now.

 

[pdudgeon]

This rube of a NYT writer is trying to insinuate that all Traditional Catholics are also MAGA people. Maybe there's a correlation in values but it's a ridiculous broad stroke meant to paint traditionalists as dangerous radicals and extremists (for the record MAGA people aren't any of those things either, but that's what the dominant narrative in our culture wants you to think).

That said, I appreciate the shoutout the article makes to Alex Begin, a laymen from the Archdiocese of Detroit who has spent years training priests how to celebrate the Latin Mass through his Extraordinary Faith Celebrant Training program. I also appreciate the really nice photos of the Mass in the article. So have a look!

DETROIT — Eric Agustin’s eight children used to call the first day of the week “Party Sunday.” The family would wake up, attend a short morning Mass at a Catholic parish near their house, then head home for lunch and an afternoon of relaxing and watching football.​

​

But this summer, the family made a “big switch,” one of his teenage sons said on a recent Sunday afternoon outside St. Joseph Shrine, the family’s new parish. At St. Joseph, the liturgy is ornate, precisely choreographed and conducted entirely in Latin. The family drives an hour round trip to attend a service that starts at 11 a.m. and can last almost two hours.​

Interesting to note that in the third paragraph she insinuates that of all the various sorts of people who value the Latin Mass, none of them are simply "Catholics who take their faith seriously" which would be most accurate. She's denigrating their motives and reducing it to aesthetic preference or the naïveté of a convert and then proceeds to call the whole group a rising "right-wing strain on American Christianity".

If you want to see what direction the secular world wants the Church to go, read this article. It's clear that it views a passionate, masculine, Divinely-lead Church as a threat and it prefers a neutered, feminized, compromised Church instead.

Old Latin Mass Finds New American Audience, Despite Pope’s Disapproval (Published 2022)

An ancient form of Catholic worship is drawing in young traditionalists and conservatives. But it signals a divide within the church.

www.nytimes.com

I agree absolutely! The U. S. A. Would love to get their claws into the Catholic Church, and denigrating the Traditional Catholic Church is one way to do that.
Oh how I wish that just once they could understand that the Traditional mass shows love, devotion, and deep respect for God and Jesus and Joseph, and Mary.
The traditional mass takes us out of this World, and shows us the Truth of God; that He is an integral part of daily life, and not just a part of history.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Oh how I wish that just once they could understand that the Traditional mass shows love, devotion, and deep respect for God and Jesus and Joseph, and Mary.
The traditional mass takes us out of this World, and shows us the Truth of God; that He is an integral part of daily life, and not just a part of history.

The ordinary Novus Ordo does the same. It's a matter of being open to contemplation during the Mass or not.

 

[Ave Maria]

I have never been to a Traditional Latin Mass but I am wanting to go to one. There is one here in my city every Sunday but I don't have a car and I never have spare change for the bus so I haven't been able to go to it yet.

 

[Gnarwhal]

The Mass isn't nearly the same at Trappists and Benedictine monasteries as it is in the average Catholic parish.
If it is, either those parishes you have visited, are more reverent than usual, or the monasteries are irreverent.

I have not only visited Trappist and Benedictine monasteries near me, but I've also made retreats there. Both
say the Novus Ordo. The Trappist have translated all the Latin hymns and responses of the Mass and the Divine
Office, into English. The Benedictines say the Mass in English except for parts, which are chanted in Latin.
On Thursdays of the week, they say the entire Novus Ordo and the Liturgy of the Hours in Latin.
It's OK but having prayer in my own tongue is preferred. We think in our vernacular, so hearing Mass and
the LOTH's in a foreign language just makes it difficult to follow. It's still more reverent than any Catholic
parish I have even been to in my 71 years.

The Trappists by me say the novus ordo as well, and God bless them cause they're wonderful men but I would say the reverence is about equal at best to the even the diocesan TLMs I've been to in three different diocese (NY, DC and Arlington). It's certainly not more beautiful, in part because Trappist spirituality is very stripped down. That works for the Trappist community because the Cistercian religious life was built on austerity but for the average diocesan parish the "four bare walls and a sermon" approach is protestant and should be anathema.

The priest saying the Mass with his back to the people, goes against the omnipresence of God, and the fact that
God dwells within us, not out in some cosmos.

So you're saying for thousands of years we were going against God? Nowhere does it say that facing liturgical east is because God is "there but not here". That's ridiculous. The priest, in persona Christi, is offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass on our behalf. We do not possess the faculties to do it ourselves, nor will any laymen ever, so just like the Israelites of old who brought animals for the High Priests to slaughter once a year in Jerusalem, so too do we come to our priest to re-present the one and only sacrifice of Christ the Lamb of God.

Bishop Barron himself said versus populum is like watching a cooking show, we don't go to Mass to be entertained by the showmanship of a priest on the other side of the altar facing us and walking us through what he's doing and saying like he's Emeril Lagasse. No, I go there in faith that the priest is doing the same job all Catholic priests everywhere have been instructed and ordained to do since 33AD. For 500 years that was codified into a single Mass in the west. Before that codification there were plenty of Masses across Europe that were still celebrated ad orientem and virtually all of them used Latin.

I don't need to follow along word for word. What I can glean with my senses is good enough, and perhaps more fruitful is that we laymen spend our time in the pews offering up prayers for the bishops, clergy, our families, our friends, and most importantly in gratitude to God for the mere fact that He gifted us the Eucharist. Rather than worrying about making sure we keep up with responses, we have a chance to offer up prayers. Like the communion before the communion. That seems for more right and just than thinking what I say has any importance to the entire reason we're there in the first place: the transubstantiation of the Eucharist.

The Latin Mass puts us laymen in our place and I think that's why it chafe's the boomer generation so much because that gen has always been about "empowerment."

 

[Gnarwhal]

I have never been to a Traditional Latin Mass but I am wanting to go to one. There is one here in my city every Sunday but I don't have a car and I never have spare change for the bus so I haven't been able to go to it yet.

Have you called the parish and found out if they have any resources to get you to Mass? I think some parishes have volunteers who will give others rides to Mass if needed. Usually for free I think.

 

[Ave Maria]

Have you called the parish and found out if they have any resources to get you to Mass? I think some parishes have volunteers who will give others rides to Mass if needed. Usually for free I think.

No, I've never tried that but I might do that tomorrow. Thanks for the idea!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The Trappists by me say the novus ordo as well, and God bless them cause they're wonderful men but I would say the reverence is about equal at best to the even the diocesan TLMs I've been to in three different diocese (NY, DC and Arlington). It's certainly not more beautiful, in part because Trappist spirituality is very stripped down. That works for the Trappist community because the Cistercian religious life was built on austerity but for the average diocesan parish the "four bare walls and a sermon" approach is protestant and should be anathema.



So you're saying for thousands of years we were going against God? Nowhere does it say that facing liturgical east is because God is "there but not here". That's ridiculous. The priest, in persona Christi, is offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass on our behalf. We do not possess the faculties to do it ourselves, nor will any laymen ever, so just like the Israelites of old who brought animals for the High Priests to slaughter once a year in Jerusalem, so too do we come to our priest to re-present the one and only sacrifice of Christ the Lamb of God.

Bishop Barron himself said versus populum is like watching a cooking show, we don't go to Mass to be entertained by the showmanship of a priest on the other side of the altar facing us and walking us through what he's doing and saying like he's Emeril Lagasse. No, I go there in faith that the priest is doing the same job all Catholic priests everywhere have been instructed and ordained to do since 33AD. For 500 years that was codified into a single Mass in the west. Before that codification there were plenty of Masses across Europe that were still celebrated ad orientem and virtually all of them used Latin.

I don't need to follow along word for word. What I can glean with my senses is good enough, and perhaps more fruitful is that we laymen spend our time in the pews offering up prayers for the bishops, clergy, our families, our friends, and most importantly in gratitude to God for the mere fact that He gifted us the Eucharist. Rather than worrying about making sure we keep up with responses, we have a chance to offer up prayers. Like the communion before the communion. That seems for more right and just than thinking what I say has any importance to the entire reason we're there in the first place: the transubstantiation of the Eucharist.

The Latin Mass puts us laymen in our place and I think that's why it chafe's the boomer generation so much because that gen has always been about "empowerment."

I referred to the difference in reverence at Trappists and Benedictine monasteries compared to the average Catholic Parish, not
those which celebrate the TLM.

I never said the Church was going against God by having the Mass said Ad Orientem, where you got that in my post is beyond me.
I was providing the historical context of why it was developed and why it remained until Vatican II.

Bishop Barron says the Mass facing the people because the Vatican said that televised Masses must be said facing the people.
Even Pope's St John Paul II and Benedict XVI, celebrated Mass at the World Youth Day celebrations, facing the people.

Bishop Foley show was cancelled by EWTN when he got into a debate with Mother Angelica. She wanted the Mass said Ad Orientem, he said no, the priest must be facing the people. The debate went all the way to the Vatican and they instructed Mother Angelica that the televised Mass at the EWTN chapel, must be Vox Popoli, the priest facing the people. The Mass at the Order's Shrine could be Ad Orientem, as that was celebrated by the religious order which could set their own norms. Bishop Foley did not
have authority over them, unless the Mass was celebrated on TV which meant it went out to the rest of the Catholic population
here in the States and must follow the norm set by the USCCB that.

The Latin Mass puts laymen in your place?
Really, Christ would have a problem with this idea.

 

[Chrystal-J]

DETROIT — Eric Agustin’s eight children used to call the first day of the week “Party Sunday.” The family would wake up, attend a short morning Mass at a Catholic parish near their house, then head home for lunch and an afternoon of relaxing and watching football.

​

But this summer, the family made a “big switch,” one of his teenage sons said on a recent Sunday afternoon outside St. Joseph Shrine, the family’s new parish. At St. Joseph, the liturgy is ornate, precisely choreographed and conducted entirely in Latin. The family drives an hour round trip to attend a service that starts at 11 a.m. and can last almost two hours.​

Old Latin Mass Finds New American Audience, Despite Pope’s Disapproval (Published 2022)

An ancient form of Catholic worship is drawing in young traditionalists and conservatives. But it signals a divide within the church.

www.nytimes.com

If this is the church I'm thinking of, it's next door to a church I've attended before. St. Joseph's requires that women wear dresses and head coverings. I had heard that they weren't in communion with Rome. (But that's just what I've heard.) It has it's own school. But, there are other St. Joseph churches, so I could be wrong.

 

[Gnarwhal]

If this is the church I'm thinking of, it's next door to a church I've attended before. St. Joseph's requires that women wear dresses and head coverings. I had heard that they weren't in communion with Rome. (But that's just what I've heard.) It has it's own school. But, there are other St. Joseph churches, so I could be wrong.

It's the St. Joseph Shrine on the corner of Orleans St and Antietam Ave. They're part of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, which is in full communion with Rome. Their special charism is sacred music too and they're recognizable by their light blue cassocks. They're not as big as the FSSP but their parishes are definitely very special. I remember before +Vigneron invited the Institute to Detroit and gave them that parish, the parish had a full orchestra that would play a lot of Baroque compositions for Mass. It was neat, but the parish was still struggling, so the ICKSP saved it in a lot of ways.

I'm not sure if you would be prevented from attending Mass if you didn't wear a dress and a mantilla but I think they encourage those traditional forms of modesty for women.

 

[Erose]

They're only finding the TLM more reverent because those currently attending are like minded
when it comes to reverence.

Make the TLM the ordinary where it's celebrated in all parishes, and reverence will decline.

If you doubt me, got to Mass at a monastery like the Trappists, or Benedictines. The reverence
is greater than the parishes that have the TLM.

This 1000 times over.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I agree absolutely! The U. S. A. Would love to get their claws into the Catholic Church, and denigrating the Traditional Catholic Church is one way to do that.
Oh how I wish that just once they could understand that the Traditional mass shows love, devotion, and deep respect for God and Jesus and Joseph, and Mary.
The traditional mass takes us out of this World, and shows us the Truth of God; that He is an integral part of daily life, and not just a part of history.

I want to be careful about saying that all TLM are more reverent than novus ordo. I have recent experience with a TLM mass where it was mumbled at rocket speed and I could not follow it even though I know Latin both liturgical and classical. Readings in Latin only. No homily. Sure it was valid. But not reverent. I have been to other TLM that have been reverent. Also Latin novus ordo that have been reverent, and Ordinariate masses, and English language novus ordo masses. I have been to some very low pass novus ordo masses, but the novus ordo doesn’t have a lock on that. We need to insist on reverence. We CAN find that here and there. I am pleased that the TLM has become more popular and wish it was not being actively suppressed.

 

[Erose]

This debate between the older rite vs the newer rite OF THE SAME MASS is really sad. Really is this the mole hill that the American Church is going to die on?

Those who believe the Tridentine is better than the Novus, do you really think that the Christ in the Eucharist consecrated in the New is less than the one in the old?

If you are looking for a scapegoat of why the Church in Europe and America is worse off today than 60 years ago, just look at one thing: catechism.

 

[chevyontheriver]

This debate between the older rite vs the newer rite OF THE SAME MASS is really sad. Really is this the mole hill that the American Church is going to die on?

Seems that it is more than the American Church, but the whole Church. And the priority seems to be the forced suppression of the TLM against people who 'dangerously' prefer it. There are a few signs of life in the Catholic Church today. One of them is the TLM. But it must be killed.

Those who believe the Tridentine is better than the Novus, do you really think that the Christ in the Eucharist consecrated in the New is less than the one in the old?

I suspect that a few think so but I think most who prefer the TLM accept the validity of the novus ordo.

If you are looking for a scapegoat of why the Church in Europe and America is worse off today than 60 years ago, just look at one thing: catechism.

How would the Catechism make things worse? I don't get it.

 

[Chrystal-J]

It's the St. Joseph Shrine on the corner of Orleans St and Antietam Ave. They're part of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, which is in full communion with Rome. Their special charism is sacred music too and they're recognizable by their light blue cassocks. They're not as big as the FSSP but their parishes are definitely very special. I remember before +Vigneron invited the Institute to Detroit and gave them that parish, the parish had a full orchestra that would play a lot of Baroque compositions for Mass. It was neat, but the parish was still struggling, so the ICKSP saved it in a lot of ways.

I'm not sure if you would be prevented from attending Mass if you didn't wear a dress and a mantilla but I think they encourage those traditional forms of modesty for women.

Ok, that's not the church I was thinking of. The church I was thinking of is actually in Wayne, MI. (Just outside of Detroit.)

(from the one in Wayne's website):

St. Joseph’s Catholic Church and School in Wayne, Michigan. We offer the Tridentine Latin Mass daily.​

St. Joseph's Catholic Church