[NYT] Old Latin Mass Finds New American Audience, Despite Pope's Disapproval

[Gnarwhal]

Ok, that's not the church I was thinking of. The church I was thinking of is actually in Wayne, MI. (Just outside of Detroit.)

(from the one in Wayne's website):

St. Joseph’s Catholic Church and School in Wayne, Michigan. We offer the Tridentine Latin Mass daily.​

St. Joseph's Catholic Church

Ah yes, then you're correct - that parish is from the Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen which is a sedevacantist group. That's the sad part is all these schismatic groups that are sprinkled in there ruining it for the goodly traditional groups who are in communion with Rome, acknowledge the Pope, don't dispute Vatican II or the validity of the novus ordo and just want to have the Tridentine Mass, plain and simple.

 

[Erose]

Seems that it is more than the American Church, but the whole Church. And the priority seems to be the forced suppression of the TLM against people who 'dangerously' prefer it. There are a few signs of life in the Catholic Church today. One of them is the TLM. But it must be killed.

My question have you actually read Pope Francis' document on this matter? I have and he makes some very good points, that I do see being the case with at least some Catholics who IMO have gone too far.

That being said, TRADITIONIS CUSTODES really puts the usage of the TLM back into the hands of the bishop of each diocese to make his own decisions about the usage of the TLM, as it SHOULD be the case. Bishops are the shepherds, and we are their flocks; and we should be obedient to their decisions when it comes to spiritual matters. May not agree with it, but agreement is not required for obedience.

I suspect that a few think so but I think most who prefer the TLM accept the validity of the novus ordo.

I really question this at times, because it definitely seems that rejection of Vatican II and TLM only is becoming more of a thing.

How would the Catechism make things worse? I don't get it.

Lack of catechism has been the problem at least in this country since I have been Catholic. It saddens me greatly that so few Catholics know their faith even the basics are a loss to them. A love affair grows by learning more and more about the person you love or want to love. Being willfully ignorant of He we should love more than anything, is....the sad state of our Church.

I want to address you few signs of life comment. I disagree here. It really depends upon where you are located. I know in my diocese in North LA, since I have been a part of it, the Catholic life has grown much in the 20 years I have been a part of it. And I really don't recall a mass I have been to which wasn't done reverently by the priest, and good participation from the laity. There are still issues with people talking after mass before exiting the church but it is getting better. Last time I seen a guitar at a mass here was at a youth mass, but that has been some years ago. Most churches have pianos and our Cathedral uses pipe organs.

Ordinations are up here, which is pretty great considering that when I got here we depended heavily on missionaries from India and Africa to pastor our parishes.

Eucharistic Adoration is growing, and public devotions are also growing. I'm about to go to the chapel at the cathedral for holy hour and mass, and I must say you can't ask for something more beautiful than this two hours. The great thing is that it is very well attended. May 75 to 100 beautiful Catholics loving Jesus together.

What I'm trying to say, is don't give up hope. Yes there are places where the Church is struggling mightily; but there are others that it is growing and in some such as Africa and Asia it is thriving.

 

[chevyontheriver]

My question have you actually read Pope Francis' document on this matter? I have and he makes some very good points, that I do see being the case with at least some Catholics who IMO have gone too far.

I have of course read it. And I agree that some Catholics have gone too far. But those are only a small minority even within those who prefer the TLM. Pope Francis' document itself has gone too far by forbidding only the TLM while allowing all manner of goofiness on matters liturgical and doctrinal and moral. This disheartens good Catholics who feel they are being pushed out of the Church.

That being said, TRADITIONIS CUSTODES really puts the usage of the TLM back into the hands of the bishop of each diocese to make his own decisions about the usage of the TLM, as it SHOULD be the case. Bishops are the shepherds, and we are their flocks; and we should be obedient to their decisions when it comes to spiritual matters. May not agree with it, but agreement is not required for obedience.

Many bishops have acted with the understanding that they have been given marching orders from the Vatican. Bishops SHOULD be the primary catechists and liturgists of their local churches. And they should have in mind the care of all of the people in their local churches.

I really question this at times, because it definitely seems that rejection of Vatican II and TLM only is becoming more of a thing.

Yes, as chaos increases in the Church it looks more and more like Vatican II is to blame. Mostly because those people infected by the 'spirit' of Vatican II have convinced everyone that it's the words of Vatican II that are authorizing this chaos. Regrettably most people have never read a word of Vatican II. Most don't know how good it is. But they see the mess now, and how it looks like the fruit of Vatican II. They see the mess and wrongly but naturally blame Vatican II. They want some sanity and find it in the TLM. They see a hermeneutic of discontinuity in the chaos and instinctively seek out a hermeneutic of continuity as a remedy.

Lack of catechism has been the problem at least in this country since I have been Catholic. It saddens me greatly that so few Catholics know their faith even the basics are a loss to them. A love affair grows by learning more and more about the person you love or want to love. Being willfully ignorant of He we should love more than anything, is....the sad state of our Church.

A lack of contact with the Catechism has been a huge problem. I thought you were initially saying the Catechism WAS the problem. I agree with you that the lack of it is the problem.

I want to address you few signs of life comment. I disagree here. It really depends upon where you are located. I know in my diocese in North LA, since I have been a part of it, the Catholic life has grown much in the 20 years I have been a part of it. And I really don't recall a mass I have been to which wasn't done reverently by the priest, and good participation from the laity. There are still issues with people talking after mass before exiting the church but it is getting better. Last time I seen a guitar at a mass here was at a youth mass, but that has been some years ago. Most churches have pianos and our Cathedral uses pipe organs.

Ordinations are up here, which is pretty great considering that when I got here we depended heavily on missionaries from India and Africa to pastor our parishes.

Eucharistic Adoration is growing, and public devotions are also growing. I'm about to go to the chapel at the cathedral for holy hour and mass, and I must say you can't ask for something more beautiful than this two hours. The great thing is that it is very well attended. May 75 to 100 beautiful Catholics loving Jesus together.

Great. The TLM is a sign of life. I did not mean to imply it was the only one by a long shot. I am happy to hear that you see the signs of life that you do.

And yet there is more chaos in the Church than I have seen in a long time. After Vatican II it was chaotic, with the almost instantaneous collapse of catechesis. Things stabilized and improved finally with pope John Paul II, but those days were a mess. We are in a mess again now with high ranking Vatican cardinals saying that maybe it's time for contraception. The difference in the mess this time is that it is mostly top down.

What I'm trying to say, is don't give up hope. Yes there are places where the Church is struggling mightily; but there are others that it is growing and in some such as Africa and Asia it is thriving.

Yes, Africa and Asia are providing many signs of life. What I would say about the TLM crowd is not to presume they are all enemies of the Church. Generally they are not. Insulting and demeaning them and pushing them out has not been a good strategy. If someone would accompany them, and would walk with them, it might fix a few things. Traditionis Custodes was a sledgehammer where a feather would have been more appropriate. It will in the end have to be walked back because it is alienating good and faithful Catholics who are not the primary mess makers in the Church right now.

 

[Michie]

Ah yes, then you're correct - that parish is from the Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen which is a sedevacantist group. That's the sad part is all these schismatic groups that are sprinkled in there ruining it for the goodly traditional groups who are in communion with Rome, acknowledge the Pope, don't dispute Vatican II or the validity of the novus ordo and just want to have the Tridentine Mass, plain and simple.

Have you seen this write up @spicoli?

THE NEW YORK TIMES LAUDS THE LATIN MASS - DEO GRATIAS

We were out for a fish-dish, when a friend of ours texted about a story on the Traditional Latin Mass that has just come out in The New Yor...

thepathlesstaken7.blogspot.com

 

[Gnarwhal]

Have you seen this write up @spicoli?

I'm confused...was there supposed to be a link? Lol

 

[Gnarwhal]

I have of course read it. And I agree that some Catholics have gone too far. But those are only a small minority even within those who prefer the TLM. Pope Francis' document itself has gone too far by forbidding only the TLM while allowing all manner of goofiness on matters liturgical and doctrinal and moral. This disheartens good Catholics who feel they are being pushed out of the Church.

You know what Francis war on trads reminds me of? Ruby Ridge and Waco.

Sedes, and deniers of Vatican II/novus ordo are the Randy Weavers and David Koresh's. So Francis, like the FBI, takes action and the collateral damage and fallout from his decisions has caused more damage than was ever intended.

 

[chevyontheriver]

You know what Francis war on trads reminds me of? Ruby Ridge and Waco.

Sedes, and deniers of Vatican II/novus ordo are the Randy Weavers and David Koresh's. So Francis, like the FBI, takes action and the collateral damage and fallout from his decisions has caused more damage than was ever intended.

Something like that.

The majority of TLM folks are normal Catholics and not hardened deniers of the papacy or Vatican II. Some are whacko. But even the SSPX are at the moment in tenuous communion with the Vatican. And the FSSP are in solid communion with Rome. Yes there are folks farther out than the SSPX. But they are tiny groups like that pretend pope in Kansas. Pope Francis trying to shut down the TLM everywhere only pushes people to the extremes. On that I agree that it has done a lot of damage. But what WAS intended? If it was safeguarding the Church from clear and present danger, I think it missed the mark. Badly. If it was to demoralize lots of conservative Catholics, it did that.

 

[Erose]

I have of course read it. And I agree that some Catholics have gone too far. But those are only a small minority even within those who prefer the TLM.

If they are a small minority, they are a very loud one. And as you know it is the loud ones that get the most notice.

QUOTE="chevyontheriver, post: 77007662, member: 381079"]

Pope Francis' document itself has gone too far by forbidding only the TLM while allowing all manner of goofiness on matters liturgical and doctrinal and moral. This disheartens good Catholics who feel they are being pushed out of the Church. [/QUOTE]
Well that document didn’t forbid the TLM, no where in that document does it forbid it. Rather it puts the authority back to the bishops, which is where it belongs. Only the bishops should have authority over liturgical practice. It is in their job title quite frankly.

Me personally, I want to the bishops to get back where they belong, i.e. chief shepherds instead of “branch managers” which is what they are today. Let the bishops decide, and let his flock obey. It is as simple as that.


QUOTE="chevyontheriver, post: 77007662, member: 381079"]

Many bishops have acted with the understanding that they have been given marching orders from the Vatican. [/QUOTE]Have they? Is there evidence of this?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Have they? Is there evidence of this?

The bishop in Arlington VA, Michael Burbidge for one said he had no choice. He felt he was being loyal to the pope in curtailing TLM, and in forbidding that such masses be mentioned in church bulletins. The bishop said he was conforming to Vatican mandates. It sounds like he didn't particularly want to restrict the TLM but felt he had to.

Arlington Bishop Reflects on Path Forward After Implementing Latin Mass Restrictions

Bishop Michael Burbidge offered additional thoughts on the recent guidelines he issued on a diocesan podcast.

www.ncregister.com

Arlington Bishop Seeks Peaceful Path after Restricting Traditional Latin Mass - Adoremus

Bishop Michael Burbidge offered some additional thoughts on the recent guidelines he issued restricting the Traditional Latin Mass in the Diocese of Arlington, VA. The new restrictions were imposed following liturgical directives given by Pope Francis in July 2021. “I think we accomplished our...

adoremus.org

Arlington bishop curtails Traditional Latin Masses

Thirteen parishes must stop offering Traditional Latin Masses come Sept. 8.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

 

[Michie]

I'm confused...was there supposed to be a link? Lol

Added the link! Lol

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Does the Latin Mass seem more reverent because it is in Latin?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Does the Latin Mass seem more reverent because it is in Latin?

I’ll bet that is the reason some people might think it is more reverent. Yet obscurity isn’t actually reverence. But for me who understands Latin I think it is more an issue of sacral language in whatever language than of Latin being more reverent. For example, the Ordinariate liturgy is sacral. The novus ordo is contemporary. It makes some difference. Not a massive difference but some. I honestly think the biggest step in increasing reverence would be to turn the altar around. What do you think?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I’ll bet that is the reason some people might think it is more reverent. Yet obscurity isn’t actually reverence. But for me who understands Latin I think it is more an issue of sacral language in whatever language than of Latin being more reverent. For example, the Ordinariate liturgy is sacral. The novus ordo is contemporary. It makes some difference. Not a massive difference but some. I honestly think the biggest step in increasing reverence would be to turn the altar around. What do you think?

No. I think slow deliberate wording and movement.

 

[mourningdove~]

This rube of a NYT writer is trying to insinuate that all Traditional Catholics are also MAGA people. Maybe there's a correlation in values but it's a ridiculous broad stroke meant to paint traditionalists as dangerous radicals and extremists (for the record MAGA people aren't any of those things either, but that's what the dominant narrative in our culture wants you to think).