• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Number One Flaw in Cessationism

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
78
Tennessee
✟185,294.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Again, prophets performed signs and wonders. Just because, in this particular case, the particular KIND of sign/wonder was language-related, doesn't necessarily declassify it as prophecy and reclassify it as "the gift of tongues". The "gift of tongues", as defined in 1Cor 14, has a very specific, 2-stage definition. Acts 2 doesn't seem to meet that definition. All we know for sure is that Peter classified it as a fulfillment of Joel's Spirit-of-prophecy.

No it doesn't. Not unless it is the GIFT of tongues that requires interpretation. The prayer language SIGN of tongues does not need interpretation.

I'm not sure what other 2 stage definition you are talking about if tongues with interpretation is not what you consider two stages.
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
78
Tennessee
✟185,294.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
I don't understand why you say that you don't see it, then give an example of a similar occurrence.

Perhaps if you don't think that the two are similar, you could clarify.

I was referring to this statement first.

You: The supernatural gift happens because the person is a believer.. they weren't yet.

Sometimes an unbeliever who is seeking but hasn't accepted yet will hear God speaking to them, such as interpretation of tongues.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No it doesn't. Not unless it is the GIFT of tongues that requires interpretation. The prayer language SIGN of tongues does not need interpretation.

I'm not sure what other 2 stage definition you are talking about if tongues with interpretation is not what you consider two stages.
So far I think we agreed that the devout Jews experienced prophecy. Right?

Are you saying that the mockers, whom you claim are Romans, simultaneously experienced the SIGN of tongues? Personally I've never pretended to understand what Paul meant by:

"Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers" (14:22).

Everyone seems to have an opinion on that verse but I take no stand on it as yet because I find it utterly bewildering.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
78
Tennessee
✟185,294.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
So far I think we agreed that the devout Jews experienced prophecy. Right?

No, they experienced interpretation of tongues.

Are you saying that the mockers, whom you claim are Romans, simultaneously experienced the SIGN of tongues?

Possibly, which I will explain next. But more than likely they weren't Jews and the gospel was not for them yet.

Personally I've never pretended to understand what Paul meant by:

"Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers" (14:22).

The clues are in 21 and 23. 21 shows a judgment; 23 is what unbelievers will do - mock. But it is a two-edged sign. Positive for believers, but negative for unbelievers.
It is the same type of sign that Simeon said about Jesus when He was 8 days old.

See Luke 2:34 "a sign which will be spoken against." Jesus was also for the fall and rise Israel.

You can see the confirmation that tongues is the same type of sign by comparing Luke 2:35 with 1 Cor. 14:25.

Luke 2:35 "the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed"

1 Corinthians 14:25 "thus the secrets of his heart are revealed"

In verse 22, only tongues was considered a sign, not prophecy, so we know that verse 25 was confirming the type of sign that tongues was, and the sign of Jesus had the same affect. Those that don't accept Jesus are judged; those that do receive eternal life.

Therefore the sign of tongues for the unbeliever is a negative sign, shown by verse 23
 
Upvote 0

fwGod

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2005
1,404
530
✟72,762.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I was referring to this statement first.

You: The supernatural gift happens because the person is a believer.. they weren't yet.

Sometimes an unbeliever who is seeking but hasn't accepted yet will hear God speaking to them, such as interpretation of tongues.
Hearing God would have to have been independent of a person speaking in tongues.

The scripture must be observed, not conformed to fit an occurrence.
How could an unbeliever interpret tongues when it's only believers baptized in the Holy Spirit, filled with the Spirit and given the utterance in tongues.. who can speak in tongues and interpret?

1Cor.14:13 "let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret."
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
78
Tennessee
✟185,294.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Hearing God would have to have been independent of a person speaking in tongues.

The scripture must be observed, not conformed to fit an occurrence.
How could an unbeliever interpret tongues when it's only believers baptized in the Holy Spirit, filled with the Spirit and given the utterance in tongues.. who can speak in tongues and interpret?

1Cor.14:13 "let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret."

It is the Holy Spirit that draws us to Christ. They are His gifts, so why couldn't He sovereignly allow the devout Jews to understand and question what in the world was happening? As I said in another post, the same thing happened to a teenage girl in Arizona at my church. Christian teenagers had witnessed to her and she consented to come to church on teen night. She went up for prayer, and they circled around her and one of the adults prayed for her, then they all prayed in tongues and it was then she began to cry. What she told them was she never heard the tongues after the adult prayed in English. All she heard after that was all of them praying in English while in reality they were praying in tongues. She never even heard anyone speak in tongues. It was then she gave her heart to Christ.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It is the Holy Spirit that draws us to Christ. They are His gifts, so why couldn't He sovereignly allow the devout Jews to understand and question what in the world was happening? As I said in another post, the same thing happened to a teenage girl in Arizona at my church. Christian teenagers had witnessed to her and she consented to come to church on teen night. She went up for prayer, and they circled around her and one of the adults prayed for her, then they all prayed in tongues and it was then she began to cry. What she told them was she never heard the tongues after the adult prayed in English. All she heard after that was all of them praying in English while in reality they were praying in tongues. She never even heard anyone speak in tongues. It was then she gave her heart to Christ.

Did she hear God speaking English?
Or did she hear THEM speaking English?

Regardless - either way - since it wasn't a 2-stage process, I'd call it the gift of prophecy.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The clues are in 21 and 23. 21 shows a judgment; 23 is what unbelievers will do - mock. But it is a two-edged sign. Positive for believers, but negative for unbelievers.
It is the same type of sign that Simeon said about Jesus when He was 8 days old.

See Luke 2:34 "a sign which will be spoken against." Jesus was also for the fall and rise Israel.

You can see the confirmation that tongues is the same type of sign by comparing Luke 2:35 with 1 Cor. 14:25.

Luke 2:35 "the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed"

1 Corinthians 14:25 "thus the secrets of his heart are revealed"

In verse 22, only tongues was considered a sign, not prophecy, so we know that verse 25 was confirming the type of sign that tongues was, and the sign of Jesus had the same affect. Those that don't accept Jesus are judged; those that do receive eternal life.

Therefore the sign of tongues for the unbeliever is a negative sign, shown by verse 23
Actually I wanted you to shed some light on verse 22 for me. But I'm finding your whole position just as confusing as that verse. I hope that Paul's teaching isn't nearly as complicated as you seem to be making it out to be. I don't think I have enough brains for all this.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

fwGod

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2005
1,404
530
✟72,762.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It is the Holy Spirit that draws us to Christ. They are His gifts, so why couldn't He sovereignly allow the devout Jews to understand and question what in the world was happening?
The text states that those Jews came from places of different dialects. They were bilingual because they knew that the 120 were Galileans speaking a form of Jewish Aramaic. They did question, and they didn't understand until Peter explained it to them.
CharismaticLady said:
As I said in another post, the same thing happened to a teenage girl in Arizona at my church. Christian teenagers had witnessed to her and she consented to come to church on teen night. She went up for prayer, and they circled around her and one of the adults prayed for her, then they all prayed in tongues and it was then she began to cry. What she told them was she never heard the tongues after the adult prayed in English. All she heard after that was all of them praying in English while in reality they were praying in tongues. She never even heard anyone speak in tongues. It was then she gave her heart to Christ.
That is really a joyful occasion that she got saved. But, this will have to be a matter of agreeing to disagree.

Unless she was bilingual it's not the same thing as what happened in Acts 2. Or (since you've now shared more detail) unless she was saved, baptized in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, and called to a ministry like prophet or teacher as it states in 1Cor.12:10, 28.. and on the spot, matured enough in the gifts of the spirit to interpret the various utterances of each of those who spoke in tongues... then it was not as you suppose.

When you say that she, an unsaved person, heard all speaking in English even though they were speaking in tongues.. that does not line up with the church at Corinth who were all speaking in tongues but none of it was being interpreted. It was confusion, disorderly. Neither does it say that they were heard by someone among them to be speaking in the native languages of Greek or Hebrew dialect. It would only be by prophecy that 1Cor.14:24 an unbeliever would be convicted because an unbeliever would not be able to interpret.

That was why the apostle Paul instructed 1Cor.14:27 that up to three take their turn to speak in tongues and up to three interpret each tongue.. interpretation can also be prophecy.

In the matter of personal experience versus inspired scripture.. the word of God should be honored above all.. and that would have to be what Paul taught about tongues and interpretation, and who he said could interpret.
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
78
Tennessee
✟185,294.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Did she hear God speaking English?
Or did she hear THEM speaking English?

Regardless - either way - since it wasn't a 2-stage process, I'd call it the gift of prophecy.

They were speaking in tongues
She heard them speaking English
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
78
Tennessee
✟185,294.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Actually I wanted you to shed some light on verse 22 for me. But I'm finding your whole position just as confusing as that verse. I hope that Paul's teaching isn't nearly as complicated as you seem to be making it out to be. I don't think I have enough brains for all this.
LOL

What it is saying is that tongues is a sign that unbelievers will speak against. That is what type of sign our prayer language is WITHOUT interpretation. So in order for the unsaved and uninformed of 23 to not think you are crazy, only let those who have the gift of diverse kinds of tongues speak in church, but limit them to 2-3, and one interpret.
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
78
Tennessee
✟185,294.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
The text states that those Jews came from places of different dialects. They were bilingual because they knew that the 120 were Galileans speaking a form of Jewish Aramaic. They did question, and they didn't understand until Peter explained it to them.

But they weren't speaking a form of Jewish Aramaic. They were speaking in tongues. To anyone without the gift of interpretation of tongues, it would have just sounded like gibberish, like some foreign languages sound to me. But each of the devout Jews listening heard them speaking their own language like listening to a choir. They didn't hear 120 different languages, they each heard just their own.

When you say that she, an unsaved person, heard all speaking in English even though they were speaking in tongues.. that does not line up with the church at Corinth who were all speaking in tongues but none of it was being interpreted. It was confusion, disorderly.

Exactly, that is why Paul did not want all of them speaking their prayer language out loud just to show off, and all at the same time. It would be out of order. Paul wanted only those few who had the gift for the profit of all to speak, and to limit it to just a few, and one with the gift of interpretation must be present to give the interpretation.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What it is saying is that tongues is a sign that unbelievers will speak against. That is what type of sign our prayer language is WITHOUT interpretation...
That's a good proposal and certainly better than anything I can think of at the moment. But it still leaves me confused. Here's the preceding verse:

"In the Law it is written: “With other tongues, and through the lips of foreigners, I will speak to this people,but even then they will not listen to me."

In that verse, the Lord seems to be saying, "I'm speaking a message. They SHOULD try to heed the message but refuse." But how can they heed a message which they cannot comprehend? Confusing.
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
78
Tennessee
✟185,294.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
"In the Law it is written: “With other tongues, and through the lips of foreigners, I will speak to this people,but even then they will not listen to me."

In that verse, the Lord seems to be saying, "I'm speaking a message. They SHOULD try to heed the message but refuse." But how can they heed a message which they cannot comprehend? Confusing.

Correct. And you aren't confused. Without interpretation, how can they comprehend? And you see in verse 23 which is the key to the context of 21-23, if "all" are speaking in tongues - meaning our prayer language of Mark 16 given to all baptized believers for individual use, not 1 Cor. 12, given only to those with that ministry for the profit of all that requires interpretation, they will sound crazy, so how can the unsaved and uninformed believe what is being said, when there is just utter confusion? They will run away, not stay if they can't hear prophecy over the cacophony of gibberish. That is what was wrong in the Corinth church. Most of them already had their prayer language because most of them were born again, but immature, and wanted to show off that they were gifted. But like every church now, not everyone had truly repented and been born again, so Paul says, "I wish you all spoke with tongues" but even more that when they were born again, they would be so zealous and bold as to have a ministry and receive gifts of 1 Cor. 12., and not just the authorities of all believers of Mark 16. So Paul makes the rule that only those few with the tongues of ministry should speak, and even limit them to 2-3, and one interpret, so as to give time for silence for the ministry of prophecy to be spoken and heard by all.

(Going back to bed)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,941
1,074
✟298,548.00
Faith
Christian
I am not aware of a single respected bible scholar who agrees with your 'miracle of hearing' theory in Acts 2. Many of the commentaries on Acts mention this theory, but they all universally reject it as being untenable:


A Bible Handbook to the Acts of the Apostles - Mal Couch (President of Tyndale Theological Seminary)

What Is Speaking in Tongues?
The ability to speak in tongues was the ability to speak in known human languages that were unknown to the speaker. This definition is arrived at by noting that the word for tongue (glossa) is used in the New Testament for the physical organ of the tongue, but it frequently refers to language or speech. At the first manifestation of the gift in Acts 2, Luke carefully described the nature of the gift. When he stated that they "began to speak with other tongues" (Acts 2:4), he used the normal word for language (glossa). He underscored that known human languages were involved when he used the word dialect (dialektos) and then proceeded to tell his readers what languages were being spoken (vv. 6, 8).

Those who heard the tongues speaking on the day of Pentecost were Jews who had been part of the great dispersion of Israel. These had returned to the city of Jerusalem from many parts of the world to celebrate the feast of Pentecost. These Jews, expecting to hear Hebrew and Aramaic, were amazed to hear unschooled Galileans speaking Gentile languages fluently. According to Luke, every person was amazed by the phenomenon because "they were each one hearing them speak in his own language" (2:6). These languages were from almost every part of the Gentile world, both major languages and dialects. These Jews heard that day known languages, not ecstatic utterances.

From the words used and from the context itself, it is abundantly clear that the tongues speaking in Acts 2 had to do with known human languages that were unknown to the ones who spoke. It is a solid rule of biblical interpretation that the meaning of clear passages must determine the meanings in obscure passages. Acts 2 is a passage which clearly describes the gift of tongues.

The matter of tongues speaking is not really dealt with a great deal in the Scriptures. Luke in the book of Acts and Paul in the book of 1 Corinthians give our pertinent information on this phenomenon. The only other passage where tongues is specifically mentioned is Mark 16, where it is said that believers would speak with "new tongues." Robert Gromacki observes:

Assuming that the passage is genuine, the usage of the adjective kainos rather than its synonym neos is noteworthy... kainos refers to the new primarily in reference to quality... whereas neos refers to the recent. It is admitted by all that the phenomenon of speaking in tongues did not occur in the Old Testament or Gospel periods and that it first happened on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2). Therefore, if speaking in tongues had involved unknown languages never spoken before, Christ would have used neos (new in time).​

But since Heused kainos, this must refer to foreign languages which were new to the speaker, but which had been in existence before."

What About Ecstatic Utterances?

Our understanding of tongues comes from Luke and Paul. Both use glossa for the gift of tongues. Luke and Paul were close companions and laborers for Christ for many years. Both used the same word to describe the same gift. There is no evidence that their definitions of glossa differed in any way. And there is no evidence that the tongues speaking that occurred on the day of Pentecost differed from the tongues speaking that took place at Corinth. Tongues were known human languages.

Since Acts 2 is the first place where the phenomenon occurs, and it is described in detail there, and since there is no further definition or description later on, it must be concluded that the gift of tongues is the supernatural ability to speak in a human language that is unknown to the speaker.


Acts - John B. Polhill (professor of New Testament at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)

Finally, the long list of nations in w. 9-11 is sandwiched between references to people who marvel at hearing the Christians in their own language (vv. 8,11b). The list obviously illustrates the breadth of the languages that were spoken. 6 Awareness of this has led some scholars to postulate a miracle of "hearing.” The usual form of this view assumes that the Christians experienced glossolalia, but the crowd understood this as their own language through a miracle of hearing. This would emphasize the word “hear” in v. 6,11b: “each one heard them speaking in his own language.”77 The major problem with this view is that it presupposes the reception of the Spirit on the part of the crowd. Indeed, if the miracle was in the crowd's hearing rather than in the believers' speaking, one wonders why it was even necessary for Luke to tell of the Spirit's coming so powerfully upon them.

When one's attention is focused on Luke's story of Pentecost, the flow of the narrative does seem to favor the view of a miracle of foreign speech. Filled with the Spirit, the Christians began to speak in tongues different from their own (v.4). A crowd was attracted and utterly amazed to hear these Galileans speaking their languages (v. 7), a crowd that represented the greater portion of the entire Jewish Diaspora (vv. 9-11). Certainly it was an ecstatic experience. The disciples were brim-full of the Spirit. They praised God; they magnified his name (v. 11);78 they prophesied (v. 17). The members of the crowd were bewildered. It had to be a sign, but what did it mean (v. 12)? As in every crowd, there were scoffers (v. 13). Still the inspired speech of the Christians demonstrated the spiritual power present that day. All were prepared to hear Peter's explanation.


Acts: An Exegetical Commentary - Craig S. Keener (Professor of New Testament at Asbury Theological Seminary)

Luke portrays tongues speaking as Spirit-inspired speech, a fulfillment of the eschatological promise of the prophetic Spirit (Acts 2:17-18).[231] Luke emphasizes tongues because inspired speaking in languages that one has not learned serves as a powerful theological sign and narrative confirmation of empowerment for cross-cultural witness (1:8).[232]
...
Some scholars suggest a hearing miracle rather than the disciples speaking in various languages; even some early interpreters held this view.[379] But some of the suggested background for this position is based on a misinterpretation of ancient texts.[380] More important, this proposal does not match what Luke himself says.[381] Luke reports their speaking "other languages" before mentioning that anyone hears them (2:4), and emphasizes that the Spirit enables them to speak this way; further, the gift recurs later as a supernatural sign with no indication that such hearing took place (10:45-46; 19:6).[382] Moreover, in his work, Luke emphasizes not so much the Spirit producing receptivity in crowds[383] but God working through those who are agents of his Spirit (4:8, 31; 6:3, 10; 10:38; 13:9-11; 21:4, 11).


Early Christian Experience and Theology of "Tongues' - Max Turner (Professor of New Testament at the London School of Theology)

Luke appears to understand the Pentecost phenomenon, which he designates as heterais glossais lalein (to speak with other tongues':2:4), to be xenolalia: that is, the speaking of actual (but unlearned) foreign languages. This is suggested prima facie by the very word glossa (the regular lexeme for human language), especially as it is qualified by hetera ('other). More important, this sense is virtually demanded co-textually, where it is said of the crowd of diaspora pilgrims that they each heard them speaking in their own dialect (te(i) idia (i) dialekto (i) alounton; v. 6; cf. v. 8); 'we hear then telling out, in our own native languages (glossai), the wondrous deeds of God' (v. 11, matching v. 4 in other tongues as the Spirit gave them boldly to declare). This cannot naturally be taken as specifying a miracle of hearing rather than one of speech. It can only mean that the pilgrim characters in the narrative are portrayed by the narrator as astonished that these Galileans were actually boldly extolling God in their own wide variety of native diaspora tongues - and so, perhaps, can barely believe their ears (for Galileans could by no means be expected to have learned such far flung languages). But the narrator in no way suggests his characters are mistaken: that the apostles did not speak so, rather that it was the hearing that was miraculous. We may not seriously doubt that Luke attributes the fundamental charisma in this process to the activity of God in the 120 believers upon whom his Spirit descended. He would hardly be inclined to suggest that the apostolic band merely (say) babbled ecstatically and incomprehensibly, while the Spirit worked, in the as-yet unbelieving diaspora pilgrims, the greater miracle of translation ex nihilo' (or, at least, of being able to interpret the believers inspired but sub-linguistic adoration).


Christianity in the Making - James Dunn (Professor of Divinity, University of Durham)

Most striking for most readers of Luke's account is the report that those thus filled with the Spirit spoke in foreign languages. That they did so speak is the most obvious way to understand what Luke wrote. For obvious reasons some have attempted to diminish the miraculous character of the event thus understood, usually by envisaging a miracle of hearing, rather than of speaking. The inference of 2.13, that some heard only a drunken babble, gives the argument some weight. But so far as Luke himself was concerned, his choice of wording in 2.6 and 11 is hard to construe other than as intended to convey a miraculous speaking in foreign languages, presumably hitherto (and still) unknown to the speakers themselves. The key word, glossa (2.4, 11), means 'tongue', with the secondary meaning, as in English, of language'. The fuller phrase, heterai glossai (2.4), can hardly be understood other than as 'other languages, just as the fuller phrase, he meterai glossai (2.11), can hardly be understood other than as 'our languages’. The second reference, it is true, is recorded as what the crowd hear (2.11), and similarly in 2.6 - "each one heard them speaking in his own native language (dialektos)". But the first reference is Luke's own description of what happened: “they began to speak in other languages (2.4).

The rationale of Luke's understanding of this effect (or manifestation) of the Spirit's coming upon the disciples is presumably to reinforce the preceding point. The Spirit enabled or inspired a speaking which could be understood by a wide range of the crowd (2.8-11), though not all (2.13), a crowd which could be regarded as to some extent representative of all the nations under heaven. In other words, the outpouring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost was to reinforce and enable a worship (and proclamation?) which was meaningful to a wide range of nationalities.


The Message of Acts - John Stott (Anglican theologian)

What exactly was this third phenomenon which Luke stresses, and as a result of which people heard God's wonders in their vernacular? How does Luke understand glossolalia? We begin our answer negatively.

First, it was not the result of intoxication, of drinking too much gleukos, 'sweet new wine (13, BAGD). Peter is emphatic on this point: These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning (15). As early in the day as that, Haenchen comments, even drunkards and sailers have not yet begun to imbibe. Besides, the Jews fasted during festivals until the morning services were over. Nor, we must add, did the believers experience of the Spirit's fullness seem to them or look to others like intoxication, because they had lost control of their normal mental and physical functions. No, the fruit of the Spirit is 'self-control, not the loss of it. Besides, only 'some made this remark, and though they said it, they do not seem to have meant it. For, Luke says, they made fun of them. It was more a jest than a serious comment.

Secondly, it was not a mistake or a miracle of hearing in contrast to speaking, so that the audience supposed that the believers spoke in other languages when they did not. Some of Luke's statements seem to support this theory: each one heard them speaking in his own language, how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?, and we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues. When, however, Luke writes his own descriptive narrative, he puts the matter beyond dispute: they began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them, (4). Glossolalia was indeed a phenomenon of hearing, but only because it was first a phenomenon of speech.

Thirdly, it was not a case of incoherent utterance. Liberal commentators, who begin with a prejudice against miracles, suggest that the 120 believers broke into unintelligible, ecstatic speech, and that Luke (who had visited Corinth with Paul) mistakenly supposed that it was literal languages. Thus Luke got in a muddle and confused two quite different things.

What he thought was languages was in reality inarticulate ecstatic babbling or a ‘flood of unintelligible sounds in no known language. Those of us who have confidence in Luke as a reliable historian, however, let alone as an inspired contributor to the New Testament, conclude that it is not he who is mistaken, but rather his rationalistic interpreters.

Fourthly, and positively, the glossolalia on the Day of Pentecost was a supernatural ability to speak in recognizable languages. Some think that these were Aramaic, Greek and Latin, which would all have been spoken in multi-lingual Galilee; that other languages means languages other than Hebrew (the sacred biblical language which would have seemed appropriate to the occasion); and that the crowd's astonishment was aroused by God's wonders not the languages, by the content not the medium of the communication. This is plausible, and could be said to do justice to Luke's account. On the other hand, his emphasis is more on the linguistic media (4, 6, 8, 11) than on the message (12); it is natural to translate 'other languages as 'other than their mother tongue rather than 'other than Hebrew; the list of fifteen regions in verses 9-11 leads one to expect a wider range of languages than Aramaic, Greek and Latin; and the crowd's astonishment seems due to the fact that the languages, which to the speakers were other (4), i.e. foreign, were yet to the hearers their own (6, 11), indeed their own native language (8), in which they were born (see AV). I conclude, therefore, that the miracle of Pentecost, although it may have included the substance of what the one hundred and twenty spoke (the wonders of God), was primarily the medium of their speech (foreign languages they had never learned).


The Interpretation of the Acts of the Apostles - R. C. H. Lenski (professor of theology at Capital University)

What this speaking "with different tongues" means is stated in v. 6: "everyone heard them speaking in his own language"; and in v. 11: "we are hearing them telling with our own tongue the great things of God." The disciples spoke in foreign languages that were hitherto unknown to them, in the very languages of the natives of the foreign lands who were presently assembled before them. This is what Luke writes, and the church has never doubted the fact and Luke's veracity and accuracy in reporting that fact.

But serious objection is raised by some commentators who say that Luke's words mean something else, or that he has reported the facts in a wrong way. The miraculous speaking mentioned in 10:46, in 19:6, in I Cor. 12:10, and in 14:2, etc., is referred to. Nearly every objector has his own peculiar view. Some even say that “tongues" means "the language of heaven"! When Luke writes "with different tongues" and later omits "different," the omission is pointed to as proof positive for the fact that there were two entirely different kinds of speaking with tongues. The author has treated the entire subject at length in connection with I Cor. 12:10, and 14:2, etc. Sometimes Luke's sources are questioned. Yet he wrote with full knowledge of the gift of tongues. He had been in Corinth and may well have witnessed this gift in operation. He had Paul at his side who knew all about this gift. We have every reason to think that Luke also met other apostles, certainly Peter, to say nothing of some of the very disciples who here at Pentecost spoke with tongues and still others of the 3,000 who were there to hear that speaking. Still more, the Spirit who bestowed this gift of tongues guided Luke in producing his account.
...
Natives of Jerusalem and pilgrims from afar may have been in the crowd, but Luke has already drawn our attention to the great number of foreign-born Jews who are of special importance in this connection. They were utterly confounded "because they kept hearing them speaking, every single one, in his own language." The imperfect brings out the continuousness of the action. Each foreign-born Jew heard his own foreign language uttered, not once or twice, but for a considerable time. After the plural verb the singular "every single one" individualizes as this is frequently done. Luke means "in his own language" and not "dialect" just as the word used in 1:19 means "language." The list of nations following also excludes the idea that the disciples, whose own Aramaic was the Galilean dialect, were now speaking a number of other Aramaic dialects. Compare v. 11.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,941
1,074
✟298,548.00
Faith
Christian
Acts - J. A. Alexander (professor Hellenistic and New Testament literature at Princeton)

Here the precise nature of the gift is particularly stated; they began to speak with other tongues. Began is no more pleonastic bere than in the first sentence of the book, but conveys, as it does there, the twofold idea, that what is here recorded happened for the first time, and that it was afterwards repeated or continued. Other tongues can only mean languages different from their own, and by necessary implication, previously unknown. (Vulg. linguís variis.) In our Saviour's promise of this gilt before his Ascension (Mark 16, 17), he uses the equivalent expression, new tongues, i. e, new to them. The attempt to make these phrases mean new style or new strain, or new forms of expression, is not only unnatural but in consistent with the following narrative, where every thing implies a real difference of language. Some have imagined that the miracle was wrought upon the ears of the hearers, each of whom sapposed what he heard to be uttered in his mother tongue. But this is a gratuitous and forced assumption, and at variance with the fact that the use of other tongues appears to have preceded the arrival of the foreign witnesses, whose hearing is supposed to have been thus affected.


Acts - Darrell L. Bock (Professor of New Testament studies at Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas)

These tongues allow the disciples to speak about God's activity in the foreign languages of their audience (vv. 4–11). Thus these tongues function as an evangelistic enablement, so that each person can hear about God's work in his or her own language.
...
Haenchen (1987: 168) rightly rejects the idea that in Acts there is depicted ecstatic speech that each person heard in his or her own language. There is no miracle of hearing here (Acts 2:6b, 8, 11b). The Spirit is at work only on the believer.
...
These disciples begin to speak in Étépais yoooals (heterais glossais), which refers to other languages, as verse 8 makes clear. In the OT, the expression appears in Isa. 28:11 LXX in the singular. This one-step understanding differs from the description in 1 Corinthians, where two steps (utterance and interpretation) are required for understanding. In Acts this speaking of tongues in foreign languages is done as the Spirit gives them utterance (so also Jervell 1998: 133–34).

First Corinthians: An Exegetical and Explanatory Commentary - B. Ward Powers (Dean of New Testament and Ethics, Tyndale College, Australia)

The term "tongue" (glossa) was commonly used in Greek to refer both to the physical organ of speech (Luke 1:64) and to the speech or language which the physical organ produces IIere the word "other (heterais) Acts 2:4 suggests that the believers spoke in different languages from that which was native to them, a fact which is borne out by the surprise described in verses 7-8. This is further confirmed by v. 6, where it is said that "every man heard them speak in his own language." The word translated as "language" is dialektó from which our word dialect comes. The two terms tongue (glossa) and language (dialekios) are obviously used interchangeably here, making it clear that the disciples were speaking in other languages. What those languages were is indicated in verses 8-11, namely, the native languages of such areas as Parthia, Media, Elam, Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia and Phrygia.

There can therefore be no doubt that the tongues described in Acts 2 were foreign languages. The phenomenon was a miracle enabling the disciples to speak in languages which were not native to them and which they had not learned by normal educative processes.


The Acts of the Apostles - Ben Witherington (Professor of New Testament Interpretation at Asbury Theological Seminary)

First, there is no doubt that the phrase etepaiS yooodis can refer to speaking in other human languages, and would normally be understood to mean just that. When someone says "other languages," we must ask, "other" than what? What is the point of comparison - other than human or other than their native tongue? Clearly what follows in Acts 2:5ff. suggests that the audience is hearing these people speaking in other than their native tongues (cf. vv. 7-8). These people are Galileans, and yet they speak not in Aramaic but in all the various languages or dialects of their audience. As has been pointed out by various scholars, if simple ecstatic speech was in view here, Luke ought simply to have used the term γλωσσαις, not ετεραις γλωσσαις. It is no argument against this conclusion that when these disciples were heard in the temple courts they were accused of drunkenness. If they were, as Luke tells us, exuberantly praising and speaking and perhaps even singing of the mighty acts of God (v. 11b) at an early hour in the morning, this could have easily prompted the accusation of drunkenness. In short, other things other than ecstatic speech could have prompted such a suggestion.
...
Another suggestion is that Acts 2 could be about ecstatic speech (a sign of the Spirit and a miracle in itself) which was also miraculously heard in various languages. In short, there was a double miracle.18 The Greek syntax, however, surely dictates that the phrase "in his own language" must go with the word "speaking," not “hearing," in v. 6. They heard them speaking in their own languages. This, then, would rule out simple ecstatic speech or angelic speech at Pentecost, and must also count against the double miracle view.


Acts - Kenneth O. Gangel (professor emeritus at Dallas Theological Seminary)

Two arguments rise strongly to emphasize that these tongues represented languages not previously learned. First, the use of the word dialektos in verses 6 and 8 can only refer to a language or dialect. Second, the paragraph that follows (vv. 5-12) specifically emphasizes the fact that people of different languages understood the message of the Christians in their own language.

Some argue for a miracle of hearing as well as speaking in this chapter. The text does not really justify that.


Acts - Dennis Gaertner (professor of New Testament at Johnson Bible College)

Along with these signs of the Spirit's coming there also came the ability to speak with other tongues.” The term for “tongues" (glossai) is often used to speak of languages used throughout the world, and here the context dictates that this meaning is intended. The crowd was amazed that these Galileans could speak words in so many languages spoken outside of Galilee (see v. 7). Here were twelve men who by a miracle of God were speaking in languages they should not have known.7

The explanation of this miracle is included in the narrative. "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit” in such a way that the Spirit "enabled them" to speak the languages of the audience which had gathered.8 Little detail is supplied here regarding the mechanics of this miracle of speech. The term "enabled" (droodbyyouai) does not appear to include the idea of ecstatic speech, although it does carry the idea of speaking in an inspired way.
 
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,727
USA
✟257,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
It's not as though cessationists want a cessation to have occurred or have denied anything in the Bible that continuationists commonly cite as if it supports their contentions.

That's a very important point.

Cessationist aren't anti-spiritual gifts. We are pro-scripture.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That's a very important point.

Cessationist aren't anti-spiritual gifts. We are pro-scripture.
Not true. You are pro-experience. The NT is basically saturated with charismatic themes. The PRIMARY basis for cessationist doctrine is empirical experience, i.e. "Since we don't see these gifts happening today, it must have been God's WILL to terminate them." That's a methodological contradiction, because meanwhile he disparages Pentecostals for allowing empirical experience to help shape their theology.
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
78
Tennessee
✟185,294.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
That's a very important point.

Cessationist aren't anti-spiritual gifts. We are pro-scripture.

Continuists enjoy both worlds, especially ALL of scripture. Our Bibles don't look like swiss cheese.
 
Upvote 0