Number One Flaw in Cessationism

[NBB]

Nope. Not a 2-stage process in Acts. The message wasn't repeated twice. You keep restating your conclusion but that's not resolving the issue.

Prophecy and tongues with their interpretatoin are different gifts even if the result can be similar.
Just my opinion.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Nope. Not a 2-stage process in Acts. The message wasn't repeated twice. You keep restating your conclusion but that's not resolving the issue.

1. The disciples spoke in tongues

2. The devout Jews repeated it to one another in their wonderment of how each of them heard the same thing, but in their different languages.

Not sure what you are missing, unless you didn't read all of my post.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Prophecy and tongues with their interpretatoin are different gifts even if the result can be similar.
Just my opinion.

Yes. The interpretation could be one of the messages in 1 Corinthians 14:6

 

[JAL]

1. The disciples spoke in tongues

2. The devout Jews repeated it to one another in their wonderment of how each of them heard the same thing, but in their different languages.

Not sure what you are missing, unless you didn't read all of my post.

Here's how the devout group is initially introduced. Prior to this verse they were not even mentioned, as I recall.

"Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken."

That's a 1-stage event. They immediately understood what was being said because they immediately heard their own language. If this were the gift of 1Cor 14, the text would have gone something like this:

"The devout Jews heard words spoken in a language they did not recognize and could not understand. However, after that speech was finished, fortunately another speaker articulated an interpretation in their own language".

I don't know how to read it any other way. So you're right, it's not clear what I'm missing here.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Here's how the devout group is initially introduced. Prior to this verse they were not even mentioned, as I recall.

"Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken."

That's a 1-stage event. They immediately understood what was being said because they immediately heard their own language. If this were the gift of 1Cor 14, the text would have gone something like this:

"The devout Jews heard words spoken in a language they did not recognize and could not understand. However, after that speech was finished, fortunately another speaker articulated an interpretation in their own language".

I don't know how to read it any other way. So you're right, it's not clear what I'm missing here.

You evidently do not know how the gift of interpretation works. At the same time someone is speaking in tongues, the person with the gift of interpretation hears it in their own language.

 

[JAL]

You evidently do not know how the gift of interpretation works. At the same time someone is speaking in tongues, the person with the gift of interpretation hears it in their own language.

Hears the interpretation - how? You mean hear it from God, right? In that case the text would have said:

"We hear [God] declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

Instead it says:

"We hear them [i.e. the disciples] declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

They didn't NEED to hear a separate interpretation from God, because they already heard the disciples speaking their own language.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hears the interpretation - how? You mean hear it from God, right? In that case the text would have said:

"We hear [God] declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

Instead it says:

"We hear them [i.e. the disciples] declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

They didn't NEED to hear a separate interpretation from God, because they already heard the disciples speaking their own language.

The disciples were the ones speaking, but what the devout Jews hear all of them saying was the wonders of God, not "gibberish" like the mockers heard.

 

[JAL]

The disciples were the ones speaking, but what the devout Jews hear all of them saying was the wonders of God, not "gibberish" like the mockers heard.

Correct. They never heard the unknown tongue of 1Cor 14:2, which DOES sound like gibberish.

Rather, as a 1-stage event, they heard about the wonders of God, in their own language - immediately.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Correct. They never heard the unknown tongue of 1Cor 14:2, which DOES sound like gibberish.

Rather, as a 1-stage event, they heard about the wonders of God, in their own language - immediately.

But the mockers didn't. All they heard was gibberish.

 

[JAL]

But the mockers didn't. All they heard was gibberish.

Oh you're referring to this verse:

13Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”


I disagree. This isn't a new group of people. This is part of the same group introduced like this:

"Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken".

Yes they mocked - but they were part of the same group of devout Jews that heard the message in their own language.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Oh you're referring to this verse:

13Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”


I disagree. This isn't a new group of people. This is part of the same group introduced like this:

"Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken".

Yes they mocked - but they were part of the same group of devout Jews that heard the message in their own language.

I doubt it. Remember there would have been Romans there too in the streets. The gospel was not meant for them yet. It first went to the Jews.

 

[JAL]

I doubt it. Remember there would have been Romans there too in the streets. The gospel was not meant for them yet. It first went to the Jews.

Laying aside that theory for a second, we know that for the devout Jews it was a 1-stage event. Which means, at least for them, it was prophecy, not the gift of unknown tongues.

Now if there were Romans who couldn't understand it, that doesn't change the nature of the gift (just means it wasn't targeted at the Romans). It's still the gift of prophecy. Sounds like you are trying to say it was two gifts at once (both prophecy and the gift of unknown tongues). Not possible. Here's what Paul says about the unknown tongue:

"No one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit."

The devout Jews DID understand it - immediately. Which means it CAN'T be the gift of unknown tongues.

Bottom line - you're trying to cram Paul's gift of tongues down Luke's throat. It's not convincing. It's an exceedingly unlikely exposition of the text.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Laying aside that theory for a second, we know that for the devout Jews it was a 1-stage event. Which means, at least for them, it was prophecy, not the gift of unknown tongues.

Now if there were Romans who couldn't understand it, that doesn't change the nature of the gift (just means it wasn't targeted at the Romans). It's still the gift of prophecy. Sounds like you are trying to say it was two gifts at once (both prophecy and the gift of unknown tongues). Not possible. Here's what Paul says about the unknown tongue:

"No one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit."

The devout Jews DID understand it - immediately. Which means it CAN'T be the gift of unknown tongues.

Bottom line - you're trying to cram Paul's gift of tongues down Luke's throat. It's not convincing. It's an exceedingly unlikely exposition of the text.

You can't get "prophecy" out of your thinking. There were two gifts

1. speaking in tongues
2. interpretation of tongues

Mockers - nothing.

 

[JAL]

Mockers - nothing.

Right - if the mockers were Romans, then they probably got nothing. And?

You can't get "prophecy" out of your thinking.

Huh? Peter said it was the fulfillment of Joel's promised Spirit-of-prophecy.

There were two gifts
1. speaking in tongues
2. interpretation of tongues

Yes. 1Cor 14 mentions those 2 gifts. And?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Right - if the mockers were Romans, then they probably got nothing. And?

Huh? Peter said it was the fulfillment of Joel's promised Spirit-of-prophecy.

Yes. 1Cor 14 mentions those 2 gifts. And?

Do you think speaking in tongues and interpretation doesn't exist - only prophecy exists?

Prophecy in not all.


28 “And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Talk to you later.

 

[JAL]

Do you think speaking in tongues and interpretation doesn't exist - only prophecy exists?

Haven't I been affirming Paul's gift all along in our conversation? I believe in it, I just don't see it mentioned in Acts.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Haven't I been affirming Paul's gift all along in our conversation? I believe in it, I just don't see it mentioned in Acts.

Don't you see that the only way for each Jew of those different countries to HEAR the language of their own separate country at the same time would be interpretation of tongues given to each of them? So there would have had to be tongues present to begin with, not prophecy.

Going to take a shower...

 

[JAL]

Don't you see that the only way for each Jew of those different countries to HEAR the language of their own separate country at the same time would be interpretation of tongues given to each of them? So there would have had to be tongues present to begin with, not prophecy.

Going to take a shower...

Again, prophets performed signs and wonders. Just because, in this particular case, the particular KIND of sign/wonder was language-related, doesn't necessarily declassify it as prophecy and reclassify it as "the gift of tongues". The "gift of tongues", as defined in 1Cor 14, has a very specific, 2-stage definition. Acts 2 doesn't seem to meet that definition. All we know for sure is that Peter classified it as a fulfillment of Joel's Spirit-of-prophecy.

 

[fwGod]

I do not see that at all. But I have seen at my church in Arizona where an unbeliever who was seeking God was being prayed for and the person started praying in tongues over her, and she understood every word of the tongues. It changed her life and she accepted Jesus.

I don't understand why you say that you don't see it, then give an example of a similar occurrence.

Perhaps if you don't think that the two are similar, you could clarify.