Null/please delete

[disciple Clint]

I’ve judged no man. I don’t know your standing before God. But I see someone who is saying God saves some through the gospel proclamation and others through whatever means have been made available to them. That’s an unbiblical stance you’ve taken.

Hyper-Calvinists, AKA Hardshells/Primitive Baptists believe many will be in heaven who never heard the gospel. In your post, you stated the same thing.

You have decided, judged, that anyone who has not received the Gospel is going to hell, you have made this judgement even though you have no Idea who is or is not saved, only God would know that, you have also decide that someone who has an opinion about the character of God that is not the same as your is " very childish" and needs to "grow up" that is all good I will simply remind you that you will be judged by the same standards you judge others.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

You have decided, judged, that anyone who has not received the Gospel is going to hell, you have made this judgement even though you have no Idea who is or is not saved, only God would know that, you have also decide that someone who has an opinion about the character of God that is not the same as your is " very childish" and needs to "grow up" that is all good I will simply remind you that you will be judged by the same standards you judge others.

Where does faith come from? The word of God per Romans 10:17. If they’ve never heard the word of God, they cannot have faith. And all the saved are justified by faith[Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1, Romans 8:28-30, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:8, Galatians 3:24].

So you’re saying God justifies ppl via extrabiblical ways. The lost are devoid of flesh, “men in the flesh cannot please God” per Romans 8:8. Only the saved have faith[which comes only through the word of God per Romans 10:17] as that pleases Him per Hebrews 11:6.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Was the faith of the saints expressed throughout the whole world?


“First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:8-9

My wondering is if this is true.

Hebrews 8:11 And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know the LORD.’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already.

Does everyone already know the Lord, at least even just a little bit, heard of the LORD through the ‘grapevine’?

Expressions and figures of speech are also used in the Bible along with sarcasm. It’s just a figure of speech.

 

[John Helpher]

anyone who has not received the Gospel is going to hell,

Hi DC. I hope you don't mind me butting in with some comments. This concept of who has received the gospel usually gets pretty distorted. For example, if you met someone who greeted you like this, "Hello, there, I'm born again and spirit filled" you'd probably assume this person had received the gospel. It may be fair enough to give the benefit of the doubt in such cases, but "receiving" the gospel is much more than saying the correct religious phrases or performing the correct religious rituals.

Jesus himself warned that people would say to him, "Lord, we've done many works in your name" .They call him Lord; they believe they have received the gospel, but he will reject them anyway, even calling them workers of iniquity.

In another place he turns to his presumed disciples and says to them, "Why do you call me, 'Lord', but do not obey me"? Again, these people call him Lord; they believe they are saved or that they've "received the gospel", but still, Jesus rebukes them because, for all their flowery praises about how he's Lord, they don't obey him.

On the other hand, you may find people who do not refer to Jesus as Lord, or who perhaps do not even think of themselves as his followers, of maybe have never even heard his name before, and yet they show love to their neighbors. The opposite will be true, here; they don't call him Lord, and yet Jesus will accept them because they're obeying him.

We humans often reject this concept because we love recognition. We love tradition, ceremony, and pomp. We love respectability and acknowledgement so we tend to not do anything unless there is recognition for it and in our selfishness we assume God must think the same way; e.g. unless a person declares that he's loving his neighbor in the name of Jesus, then it doesn't count. But God doesn't see it that way. What he really cares about is what's happening deep down in the heart.

Often it is those who shout the name of Jesus the loudest who are the furthest from him, much like Jesus recognized when rebuking the religious leaders for much the same thing; he quoted Isiah, "These people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me".

The best way to know who has received the gospel is to consider their obedience to Jesus' teachings. If they are at least trying to obey Jesus (like helping the poor, loving their neighbors, and teaching others to do likewise) then, to that extent, they have received the gospel, even if they do not consciously recognize it as "the gospel". The opposite is true; if they are not at least trying to obey Jesus then, even if they make a big stink about praising the name of Jesus, they've not received the gospel.

 

[mlepfitjw]

Expressions and figures of speech are also used in the Bible along with sarcasm. It’s just a figure of speech.

Oh, so he didn’t really mean what he had spoken. Hebrews were know for their exaggerations.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Oh, so he didn’t really mean what he had spoken. Hebrews were know for their exaggerations.

Actually it was written not spoken but obviously not everyone had heard the gospel by the time the book of Hebrews was written.

 

[mlepfitjw]

Actually it was written not spoken but obviously not everyone had heard the gospel by the time the book of Hebrews was written.

BNR; I look at all the messages and believe they all were sent out before 70 ad, in my view.

Now we have a gift 2000 years later, called the bible that we can go and look at, read, and it helps us to get a better understanding of what the will of God is for us, as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

You are right the letter was written, and you might be right if you see things differently, though it seems like the bible is one of the first hyper-linked text books we have today in our modern society.

 

[disciple Clint]

Where does faith come from? The word of God per Romans 10:17. If they’ve never heard the word of God, they cannot have faith. And all the saved are justified by faith[Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1, Romans 8:28-30, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:8, Galatians 3:24].

So you’re saying God justifies ppl via extrabiblical ways. The lost are devoid of flesh, “men in the flesh cannot please God” per Romans 8:8. Only the saved have faith[which comes only through the word of God per Romans 10:17] as that pleases Him per Hebrews 11:6.

So by your standard would children who have not yet been exposed to the Gospel go straight to hell?

 

[disciple Clint]

Hi DC. I hope you don't mind me butting in with some comments. This concept of who has received the gospel usually gets pretty distorted. For example, if you met someone who greeted you like this, "Hello, there, I'm born again and spirit filled" you'd probably assume this person had received the gospel. It may be fair enough to give the benefit of the doubt in such cases, but "receiving" the gospel is much more than saying the correct religious phrases or performing the correct religious rituals.

Jesus himself warned that people would say to him, "Lord, we've done many works in your name" .They call him Lord; they believe they have received the gospel, but he will reject them anyway, even calling them workers of iniquity.

In another place he turns to his presumed disciples and says to them, "Why do you call me, 'Lord', but do not obey me"? Again, these people call him Lord; they believe they are saved or that they've "received the gospel", but still, Jesus rebukes them because, for all their flowery praises about how he's Lord, they don't obey him.

On the other hand, you may find people who do not refer to Jesus as Lord, or who perhaps do not even think of themselves as his followers, of maybe have never even heard his name before, and yet they show love to their neighbors. The opposite will be true, here; they don't call him Lord, and yet Jesus will accept them because they're obeying him.

We humans often reject this concept because we love recognition. We love tradition, ceremony, and pomp. We love respectability and acknowledgement so we tend to not do anything unless there is recognition for it and in our selfishness we assume God must think the same way; e.g. unless a person declares that he's loving his neighbor in the name of Jesus, then it doesn't count. But God doesn't see it that way. What he really cares about is what's happening deep down in the heart.

Often it is those who shout the name of Jesus the loudest who are the furthest from him, much like Jesus recognized when rebuking the religious leaders for much the same thing; he quoted Isiah, "These people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me".

The best way to know who has received the gospel is to consider their obedience to Jesus' teachings. If they are at least trying to obey Jesus (like helping the poor, loving their neighbors, and teaching others to do likewise) then, to that extent, they have received the gospel, even if they do not consciously recognize it as "the gospel". The opposite is true; if they are not at least trying to obey Jesus then, even if they make a big stink about praising the name of Jesus, they've not received the gospel.

What you have said shows much wisdom. Please contribute without hesitation it will benefit us all.

 

[John Helpher]

What you have said shows much wisdom. Please contribute without hesitation it will benefit us all.

Thanks.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

So by your standard would children who have not yet been exposed to the Gospel go straight to hell?

That’s between them and God. No one deserves heaven, that’s why it’s called grace.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

So by your standard would children who have not yet been exposed to the Gospel go straight to hell?

Also, it’s not my standard, it’s God’s standard.

 

[disciple Clint]

That’s between them and God. No one deserves heaven, that’s why it’s called grace.

I asked you about your standard.

 

[disciple Clint]

Also, it’s not my standard, it’s God’s standard.

You have express an opinion, and attempted to defend it now you want to shift the focus to God. Can you defend your opinion or not? Actually you stated as beyond an opinion and as an absolute fact. Now consider the question I asked you.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

You have express an opinion, and attempted to defend it now you want to shift the focus to God. Can you defend your opinion or not? Actually you stated as beyond an opinion and as an absolute fact. Now consider the question I asked you.

Allow me to ask you a question and after you answer it, I will gladly answer yours. This way I can set up what I believe and why I believe it. I will use the scriptures to prove my belief(s), too.

Do babies deserve heaven if they die in the womb or in infancy?

 

[disciple Clint]

Allow me to ask you a question and after you answer it, I will gladly answer yours. This way I can set up what I believe and why I believe it. I will use the scriptures to prove my belief(s), too.

Do babies deserve heaven if they die in the womb or in infancy?

now you are asking me to answer the question I asked you. I think you have discovered your error and simply do not want to face it.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

now you are asking me to answer the question I asked you. I think you have discovered your error and simply do not want to face it.

Again, do you think babies deserve heaven? I will gladly answer you if you answer this. There is no error nor do I stray away from my beliefs.

 

[disciple Clint]

Again, do you think babies deserve heaven? I will gladly answer you if you answer this. There is no error nor do I stray away from my beliefs.

OK I asked you the question you do not what to answer it because you know you would defeat your own argument, so game over.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

OK I asked you the question you do not what to answer it because you know you would defeat your own argument, so game over.

Alrighty, here goes. When Adam was in the Garden, he acted as all of mankind's representative, as all of mankind's federal head. When he sinned and fell in the Garden, all of mankind being in Adam, we sinned and fell, too. It was as if we had done the act. We are conceived in this fallen state, as the Psalmist wrote, "
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me"[Psalm 51:5] No one is conceived, let alone, born innocent. We are all conceived with the stain of sin upon and in us, as what Adam did was imputed to us, and we were declared(that's what imputation does) guilty before God. As the Christ was imputed the sins of His elect ppl, He was declared a sinner, yet He is forever the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. Imputation does not change the state of that person, as the Christ was not made an actual sinner, as He never committed one sin, nor did He ever have a sin nature. He declared Him a sinner before His Father, and His Father treated Him accordingly, and poured His wrath out upon Him.

Now, babies are not viewed as being innocent before God and I will prove this to you. Then Samuel said to Saul, “The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD. Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”[1 Samuel 1:1-3] Notice that God told Saul through Samuel to completely wipe out the Amalekites. Even the children and infants(KJV refers to infants as suckling, so even those breast feeding) were to be killed. God would never condone the killing of the innocent as that would be murder.

The Jews were commanded to wipe out Ai and Jericho as well. Even the children and infants were to be killed. If they were commanded to be killed, then God does not view them as being innocent in His sight.

Now, we are all born dead in Adam, dead in sin. The only way we can be saved is by grace through faith. How does one come to faith? Via the word of God, per Romans 10:17. God chose the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe[1 Corinthians 1:21]. It is only after someone has heard the gospel and believes that they are saved[Ephesians 1:13].

I can find no compelling evidence for babies that die in the womb or in infancy that there is an escape for them. I have shown you much evidence that God does not view them as being innocent before Him. So, as much as this will grieve you, I don't see a way a baby can exercise faith and be saved. I am dealing strictly with the word and not my emotions.


Now, do babies deserve heaven?

I answered you question, now kindly answer mine.

 

[disciple Clint]

Alrighty, here goes. When Adam was in the Garden, he acted as all of mankind's representative, as all of mankind's federal head. When he sinned and fell in the Garden, all of mankind being in Adam, we sinned and fell, too. It was as if we had done the act. We are conceived in this fallen state, as the Psalmist wrote, "
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me"[Psalm 51:5] No one is conceived, let alone, born innocent. We are all conceived with the stain of sin upon and in us, as what Adam did was imputed to us, and we were declared(that's what imputation does) guilty before God. As the Christ was imputed the sins of His elect ppl, He was declared a sinner, yet He is forever the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. Imputation does not change the state of that person, as the Christ was not made an actual sinner, as He never committed one sin, nor did He ever have a sin nature. He declared Him a sinner before His Father, and His Father treated Him accordingly, and poured His wrath out upon Him.


I have to quit for the time being. Please be patient and I will finish this later.

OK no problem but you might want to consider that you just presented a very good case for Jesus being innocent in all respects, He was not born with a stain of sin nor did He sin in any way but you have God punishing, causing Him to suffer excruciating pain, an innocent man for something that He did not do what does that say about the justice of God?