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NRSVue edits homosexual passages

The Liturgist

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juicyecumenism.com is certainly an unbiased authority on Scripture? Seriously? How about a valid, neutral source? One can find propaganda anywhere without looking too hard!

Juicyecumenism is substantially more unbiased and honest in its interpretation of scripture, than, for example, Hacking Christianity.
 
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The Liturgist

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Literally, the word ἀρσενοκοῖται means malebedder (n.) Lit: "Male Bed." αρσενος (male), κοιτην (bed). Sexual connotation denoted.

Although the word arsenokoitēs appears nowhere in Greek literature prior to Paul’s use of it, it is evidently a rendering into Greek of the standard rabbinic term for “one who lies with a male [as with a woman]” (Lev. 18:22; 20:13). (Despite recent challenges to this interpretation, the meaning is confirmed by the evidence of the Sybilline Oracles 2.73). Paul here repeats the standard Jewish condemnation of homosexual conduct.’, Hays, ‘First Corinthians’, Interpretation: A Bible Commentary for Teaching & Preaching, p. 97 (1997).

So the word itself is unique within Koine Greek. It does not refer specifically to the Greek practice of pederasty or male prostitute. Even if these translators try to update the word, the voices of the church fathers still speak against homosexual acts. John Chrysostom wrote, "No one can say that it was by being prevented from legitimate intercourse that they came to this pass or that it was from having no means to fulfill their desire that they were driven to this monstrous insanity... What is contrary to nature has something irritating and displeasing in it, so that they could not even claim to be getting pleasure out of it. For genuine pleasure comes from following what is according to nature. But when God abandons a person to his own devices, then everything is turned upside down."

Thank you for posting this Greek translation as well as the words of John Chrysostom.

You should also read the canons of St. John the Faster, St. Basil (canon 73) and his younger brother St. Gregory of Nyssa.
 
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pescador

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With good reason, because the mainline Protestant churches are now dominated by radical seminaries, with traditionalist seminaries like




You should also read the canons of St. John the Faster, St. Basil (canon 73) and his younger brother St. Gregory of Nyssa.

Aha! So that's where you're coming from! Now I know how to interpret your biased posts. Thanks for showing me your predetermined attitude.
 
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The Liturgist

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Aha! So that's where you're coming from! Now I know how to interpret your biased posts. Thanks for showing me your predetermined attitude.

Umm you do realize I have fairly consistently criticized the mainline churches and the direction they are headed in, and consistently cited ancient canon law, since I first joined?
 
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hedrick

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In case anyone is interested, here's an explanation of the translation of 1 Cor 6:9 from the general editor of the NT: Bible Odyssey.

What's interesting is that although she reviews all the reasons for uncertainty, she thought their translation signaled the likely basis in Lev 18:22.

If the word is in fact an allusion to Lev 18:22, Paul specifically chose to make up a word that makes that allusion, rather than using a normal Greek word. (There wasn't a direct translation of homosexual, but there were words he could have used.) A direct translation of arsenokoitai's roots would be something like "male <word CF wouldn't allow>". Men who have illicit sex is a cleaned up version, maybe too cleaned up (perverted might have been better than illicit). If the intent was that people would connect this with Lev 18:22, and if that's actually what he meant (I'm not convinced), then you could argue it does a good job.
 
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Gregorikos

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In case anyone is interested, here's an explanation of the translation of 1 Cor 6:9 from the general editor of the NT: Bible Odyssey.

Extremely interested, that's why I posted. I hadn't seen this article. Thank you.

If the intent was that people would connect this with Lev 18:22, and if that's actually what he meant (I'm not convinced), then you could argue it does a good job.

Yeah, well I haven't seen anyone yet that sees a clear connection between "men who engage in illicit sex" and Leviticus. But if the NT general editor of the NRSVue says that was their intent, I believe her. But I can't say they communicated it well.
 
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Paidiske

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I think the point is that Paul didn't necessarily communicate the connection well. I could look it up, but I'm being lazy, so, what word did the Septuagint use for the verse in Leviticus? Because if Paul intended the connection, surely that would have been the natural word to use.
 
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The Liturgist

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I think the point is that Paul didn't necessarily communicate the connection well. I could look it up, but I'm being lazy, so, what word did the Septuagint use for the verse in Leviticus? Because if Paul intended the connection, surely that would have been the natural word to use.

Indeed, and that’s basically the word he used, if we take a look at the Greek:

Leviticus 18:22 καὶ μετὰ ἄρσενος οὐ κοιμηθήσῃ κοίτην γυναικός βδέλυγμα γάρ ἐστιν.

Leviticus 20:13 καὶ ὃς ἂν κοιμηθῇ μετὰ ἄρσενος κοίτην γυναικός, βδέλυγμα ἐποίησαν ἀμφότεροι·θανατούσθωσαν, ἔνοχοί εἰσιν.

More interesting than arsenokoitai is malakoi, which appears to have the effect of associating sinfulness with homosexuality regardless of the nature of participation in arsenokoitia. This is certainly the context we get if we read the ancient canon law of the early church, which precluded both sodomites and those who had experienced such conduct from receiving Holt Orders. Of course these canons can be waved using oikonomia, and there is grounds for doing so, since the same canons also speak of being “destroyed” by arsenokoitia. If a bishop were to deem the postulant had not been destroyed, they could be admitted to Holy Orders according to the Greek approach of reading canon law.

The Latin or should I say, Roman Catholic, approach on the other hand requires canons be interpreted in a strict way, which is probably why the RCC jettisoned the severe canons of the early church which were intended to provide guidance which would be followed literally only when required, in favor of a new set of canons which could be applied consistently and at all times. This is probably why Orthodox theologians commonly accuse the Roman church of being legalistic, insofar as the Code of Canon Law is to be strictly followed, and also there is anger over Rome unilaterally setting aside the ancient canons including those adopted at the Ecumenical council.

Of course, Roman Catholic theology of the Papacy runs into problems with Canons 6 and 7 of Nicaea, and also, Roman liturgy seems inconsistent with Canon 20. In all fairness to Rome, neither the Pope nor any of his bishops were present at Nicaea, indeed, the entirety of representation consisted of two legates.

Later, Rome rejected the canons adopted by the Quinisext council, and went so far in protesting canon 82 as to insert, in the reign of Pope Sergius II, the hymn Agnus Dei into the mass (canon 82 prohibits depictions of our Lord as a lamb, as are common in the Western Church, although as some of you will know the Greek refer to what the Romans call the Eucharistic Host (hostia) as a Lamb.
 
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The Liturgist

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In case anyone is interested, here's an explanation of the translation of 1 Cor 6:9 from the general editor of the NT: Bible Odyssey.

What's interesting is that although she reviews all the reasons for uncertainty, she thought their translation signaled the likely basis in Lev 18:22.

If the word is in fact an allusion to Lev 18:22, Paul specifically chose to make up a word that makes that allusion, rather than using a normal Greek word. (There wasn't a direct translation of homosexual, but there were words he could have used.) A direct translation of arsenokoitai's roots would be something like "male <word CF wouldn't allow>". Men who have illicit sex is a cleaned up version, maybe too cleaned up (perverted might have been better than illicit). If the intent was that people would connect this with Lev 18:22, and if that's actually what he meant (I'm not convinced), then you could argue it does a good job.

Her explanation actually makes the choice of words seem even less consistent with the text.
 
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hedrick

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I think the point is that Paul didn't necessarily communicate the connection well. I could look it up, but I'm being lazy, so, what word did the Septuagint use for the verse in Leviticus? Because if Paul intended the connection, surely that would have been the natural word to use.
Lev 20:13 literal translation

And who ever should have bed with a male as the marriage-bed of a woman.

Male is arsenos and bed koiten. Those words are adjacent, though not in the same phrase.

Lev 18:22

And with a man you shall not go to be in a marriage-bed in the feminine way.

In this case both words are also present, but they are separated by two others, and again don’t form a phrase.

Paul used a word arsenokoitai which uses the same roots as arsenos and koiten. Since there’s apparently no previous use, it’s plausible to suggest that Paul invented it, intending it as a reference to Lev 20:13. But of course we don’t have an exhaustive knowledge of sexual slang in Paul’s time, so while it’s plausible, it’s not a certainty.

Commentators suggest that in Paul's time koitai is a rather vulgar word for sex, so a good translation wouldn't pass CF's filters. It's male <vulgar word for sex>. It also has a perfectly normal meaning of bed. I assume the LXX used it that way. Here's Fee's comment on the word: "There is no question as to the meaning of the koitai part of the word; it is vulgar slang for “intercourse” (which probably accounts for its seldom being found in the literature)"

------------------

In the process of preparing this, I noted GotQuestions comment:

"As in English, the Greek word for “bed” can have both sexual and non-sexual meanings. The statement “I bought a new bed” has no sexual connotation; however, “I went to bed with her” does. In the context of 1 Corinthians 6:9, koitai connotes an illicit sexual connotation—the apostle is clearly speaking of “wrongdoers” here. The conclusion is that the word arsenokoitai refers to homosexuals—men who are in bed with other men, engaging in same-gender sexual activity."

I thought it was interesting, because NRSVue translates precisely as they suggest: men having illicit sex. If the conjecture is right, the reader would be expected to understand the implication.
 
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hedrick

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I just realized that there are actually two different understandings of arsenokoitai, though they result in the same meaning. One is that it's a direct reference to Lev 20:13. The other is that it means men who have illicit sex, with the reader expected to make the connection. Fee, and apparently GotQuestions, see the second. That's how NRSV translates. I have 6 commentaries on 1 Cor, but only 2 treat this word in detail. One is Fee. The other seems to see a reference directly to Leviticus.
 
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BPPLEE

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I just realized that there are actually two different understandings of arsenokoitai, though they result in the same meaning. One is that it's a direct reference to Lev 20:13. The other is that it means men who have illicit sex, with the reader expected to make the connection. Fee, and apparently GotQuestions, see the second. That's how NRSV translates. I have 6 commentaries on 1 Cor, but only 2 treat this word in detail. One is Fee. The other seems to see a reference directly to Leviticus.
After reading all these posts it's even clearer what Paul meant and there is an agenda behind translating it as illicit sex
 
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Gregorikos

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I thought it was interesting, because NRSVue translates precisely as they suggest: men having illicit sex. If the conjecture is right, the reader would be expected to understand the implication.

The problem with that mindset is that incest, beastiality, and prostitution are "illicit sex" too. Practically everyone understands that malakos and arsenokoites refers to SOME KIND of sex between two males. "Men who have illicit sex TOGETHER" might have worked, but they didn't say that. They've entirely omitted what everyone knows it is- same sex intercourse.
 
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Paidiske

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The problem with that mindset is that incest, beastiality, and prostitution are "illicit sex" too. Practically everyone understands that malakos and arsenokoites refers to SOME KIND of sex between two males. "Men who have illicit sex TOGETHER" might have worked, but they didn't say that. They've entirely omitted what everyone knows it is- same sex intercourse.

If they meant incest, prostitution or the like, though, it's not just men involved.
 
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hedrick

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What books or podcasts have y’all read by LGBT biblical scholars with a non heteronormative agenda that dissects this subject in light of the original language and cultural understanding of the words?
They’re not hard to find. I believe it would be a violation of the rules to post a link.
 
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rturner76

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I think sodomy is "engaging in illicit sex." The term seems to cover more than just homosexuality but fornication and adultery. Still, I'll stick with the Bible I have unless it is proven to be a more accurate translation
 
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hedrick

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The problem with that mindset is that incest, beastiality, and prostitution are "illicit sex" too. Practically everyone understands that malakos and arsenokoites refers to SOME KIND of sex between two males. "Men who have illicit sex TOGETHER" might have worked, but they didn't say that. They've entirely omitted what everyone knows it is- same sex intercourse.
It is the job of translators to show you what the text says. What "everyone" knows it means is typically covered by exegesis and commentary.
 
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Gregorikos

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It is the job of translators to show you what the text says. What "everyone" knows it means is typically covered by exegesis and commentary.

Correct. And the translators of the NRSVue did not do their job in this case.
 
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BPPLEE

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What books or podcasts have y’all read by LGBT biblical scholars with a non heteronormative agenda that dissects this subject in light of the original language and cultural understanding of the words?
Of course LGBT Biblical scholars would have no bias or agenda, would they?
 
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