Nothingness

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

1. If the keyboard in front of me is real, then 'something' exists. That would mean something must exist. It isn't possible for something to be nothing at the same time so not everything can be nothingness.

2. If the keyboard in front of me is not real then I have a false belief about a keyboard. (If the belief in a keyboard is not false see point (1)

3. It might be argued that the belief about the keyboard cannot be false because it would have to be false ABOUT something and, since there is only nothing, there is nothing to be false about. Nevertheless it still remains that I am having an appearance of a keyboard and an appearance is surely something. If appearances do not count as something then we seem to have stumbled on a kind of Idealism (the epistemological kind - google 'George Berkeley') - so what?

This whole idea seems either nonsensical or trivial to me.

Is that better?

'Your first point arrives at 'Not everything can be nothingness' if the keyboard is real.

Nothingness is absolute non-existence.

Nothingness is not an object like an apple.

"There is at least one orange in my basket, so not everything can be apples'.

How can such a statement be made about nothingness?

 

[CalUWxBill]

existence is a hard thing to comprehend, but to state that the only thing that is real is nothingness seems quite awkward. nothingness is an abstract of the mind to posit the possibility of that which is not real into reality. It is a concept that allows us to view things outside of reality.

 

[fatpie42]

'Your first point arrives at 'Not everything can be nothingness' if the keyboard is real.

Nothingness is absolute non-existence.

Nothingness is not an object like an apple.

"There is at least one orange in my basket, so not everything can be apples'.

How can such a statement be made about nothingness?

Yes, but a keyboard IS an object. If there is a keyboard, there is at least one object and therefore there is 'something'. In order for there to be nothingness surely there cannot be something?

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

Yes, but a keyboard IS an object. If there is a keyboard, there is at least one object and therefore there is 'something'. In order for there to be nothingness surely there cannot be something?

I think we both share the same point of view.

I think I am little confused into thinking that we are talking about two different things.

 

[fatpie42]

If nothingness is an absolute reality, there cannot even be this false appearance of a computer, keyboard etc..

Ah, I think the problem here was the IF. Were you saying that nothingness is NOT an absolute reality?

It all makes more sense now. Sorry, I took your posts as a continuation of the same theme as the OP rather than as a rejection of it.

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

Ah, I think the problem here was the IF. Were you saying that nothingness is NOT an absolute reality?

Yes. That is my stand on this subject.

But I hold the view that there is an absolute reality that underlies and transcends this perceived universe, but it is not nothingness.

It all makes more sense now. Sorry, I took your posts as a continuation of the same theme as the OP rather than as a rejection of it.

No problem. It is an age-old debate between Hinduism and Budhism. Of course I know Buddhism has a lot of different schools of thought as does Hinduism.

But when you get to the bottom of it, we differ on what we think this 'Absolute' is.

 

[Lignoba]

Yes, but a keyboard IS an object. If there is a keyboard, there is at least one object and therefore there is 'something'. In order for there to be nothingness surely there cannot be something?

Prove to me taht the keyboard is real? Is it not possible that it is not really there? Anything is possible.

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

Prove to me taht the keyboard is real? Is it not possible that it is not really there? Anything is possible.

Such a situation, i.e., to prove something is real or unreal, would not have arised if nothingness is the only reality.

I can accept the view that a key board is unreal because I 'see' something which is actually something else(due to my perspective being relative).

If nothingness is the reality, we would not be having this false debate.

 

[fatpie42]

Prove to me taht the keyboard is real? Is it not possible that it is not really there? Anything is possible.

It is not possible that there is no "appearance of keyboards" because then we wouldn't be capable of this conversation. If everything is appearances then we will end up talking about those empty appearances the same way we would take of actual entities so it doesn't make a big difference.

(I am applying Wittgensteinian philosophy here, just in case you are familiar with that line of thought)

 

[fatpie42]

Such a situation, i.e., to prove something is real or unreal, would not have arised if nothingness is the only reality.

Well that's not fair. If it were possible that we could have all things hidden from us (sensory deprivation) and yet still believe that we are surrounded by objects, then surely it could equally be possible that there is nothing around us and we only believe there are things there.

It is not simply a case of 'you need to have light in order to recognise darkness'. Who knows what you would call darkness without the presence of light. What IS true is that our environment is the limits of our understanding. If all around us is confusion concerning appearances, it seems that what lignoba refers to as nothingness I refer to as things.

Lignoba's position sounds much more like idealism than buddhism. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the buddhist ideas or maybe buddhism really does incorporate epistemological idealism. If it is the latter, I have to say that idealism doesn't make an awful lot of difference to the state of our environment.

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

Well that's not fair. If it were possible that we could have all things hidden from us (sensory deprivation) and yet still believe that we are surrounded by objects, then surely it could equally be possible that there is nothing around us and we only believe there are things there.

I thought Lignoba was telling that even he(and you and me) is not there. Who is there to prove that the keyboard is not there?

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

Anything is possible.

Nothing is impossible.

 

[variant]

So I have come to the conclusion that anything is possible, and I have had a vision oh a person talking to me, proclaiming to me that nothing is real. Not the universe, not the earth, even mankind. I really am starting to believe it. I am on a real high right now from it, and I feel next to weightlessness. Even as I type, I know that this keyboard does not exist, nor does this computer, my hands, myself. The only thing that is real it seems, is nothingness in itself.

I think the question here is why you are telling us this if you don't believe we are real....

 

[Lignoba]

I think the question here is why you are telling us this if you don't believe we are real....

The reality is, I dont believe any of that. I just wanted to show everyone how non-christians view Christianity; in very much the same way you viewed me in my post.

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

The reality is, I dont believe any of that. I just wanted to show everyone how non-christians view Christianity; in very much the same way you viewed me in my post.

We never viewed you

 

[variant]

The reality is, I dont believe any of that. I just wanted to show everyone how non-christians view Christianity; in very much the same way you viewed me in my post.

Well I'm not a Christian, and I don't view Christianity like that at all.

Unless I'm simply confused and missing your point. Could you walk me through it and be more explicit?

Christianity makes simplistically irrational claims and appeals to what we can’t know a lot?

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

I am on a real high

The clue was right there. I can't believe how I missed it.

 

[fatpie42]

The reality is, I dont believe any of that. I just wanted to show everyone how non-christians view Christianity; in very much the same way you viewed me in my post.

Um... what?

 

[sbhaden]

So I have come to the conclusion that anything is possible, and I have had a vision oh a person talking to me, proclaiming to me that nothing is real. Not the universe, not the earth, even mankind. I really am starting to believe it. I am on a real high right now from it, and I feel next to weightlessness. Even as I type, I know that this keyboard does not exist, nor does this computer, my hands, myself. The only thing that is real it seems, is nothingness in itself.

Ya, and maybe the Matrix was not a fictional story. Is that you Neo?