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NOTHING existed before God!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Dec 4, 2001.

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  1. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Blackhaw,

    You wrote:
    God is LORD to the Israelites whom He led out of Egypt.

    God MADE Jesus, the man, LORD (Acts 2:36). This does NOT make Jesus God.

    However, for TRUE Christians, there is ONLY ONE Lord, and that is Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6).

    Phil. 2:6-8 is Paul's figurative way of describing Jesus' humility in that despite his awesome powers and authority, he did not boast about it and did NOT act like God which ordinary human beings would have done.

    Ed
     
  2. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Just FYI, Ed. The Trinity Doctrine both accepts and does not contradict these two statements. :)
     
  3. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Phil. 2:6-8 is Paul's figurative way of describing Jesus' humility in that despite his awesome powers and authority, "

    Ed, those verses are NOT figurative. If it is then you are saying Jesus wasn't a man because according to verse 8 it says he was a man..but if that's figurative then he really wasn't a man. Before you say, trinitarians say he isnt a man, that's not right. We say he was a man, but not JUST a man.
     
  4. Why was he made Lord? Because he humbled himself and became a man. He was made Lord to restore the glory that he had before as Lord.

    God isn't your Lord?

    Why does it say that he EXISTED IN THE FORM OF GOD, and was EQUAL WITH GOD? There's no indication that what he said was figurative.
     
  5. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Blalron,

    No, because I am a Christian like Paul and the Corinthians.

    Isn't the fact that apostle Paul referred to Jesus as a MAN in Acts 17:31 and 1 Tim. 2:5 and wrote that, for THEM (Paul and the Corinthians), there is ONLY ONE God, the FATHER (1 Cor. 8:6) enough INDICATION that Phil. 2:5-8 is figurative?

    Ed
     
  6. Ed, I want you to do something for me. Pretend, just for the sake of argument, that Jesus was both 100% man and 100% God. Would calling him a man mean that he wasn't God? No, it would not.


    Ed, the Trinity says there is only one God. We don't say that there are 3 Gods. No matter how hard you try, you won't find a verse that says ONLY the Father is God. You say that 1 Cor 8:6 says that. But why then is Jesus called the true God and eternal life in 1 John 5:20?

    God and Lord basically mean the same thing when used in the Bible. If you don't believe me, check out this verse:

    Revelations 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
     
  7. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Blalron,

    It is as if you were asking me to pretend that night can be day at the SAME time. Just the thought of it is an impossibility.

    God says MAN is FLESH (Gen. 6:3). Jesus says GOD is SPIRIT (John 4:24). Jesus says a SPIRIT (God and other SPIRIT creatures) do NOT have FLESH and bones as he has (Luke 24:39).

    How can I even PRETEND that Jesus is God UNLESS I am as blind as a bat?

    While it is true that there is NO verse that says "ONLY the Father is God", there is a verse that says "the Father is the ONLY true God." It is easier to PRETEND that the latter statement is the SAME as the former becuse it is true. Yet you are asking me to PRETEND to accept an IMPOSSIBILITY.

    You wrote:
    LORD means MASTER and GOD means CREATOR. God commanded the Israelites to call Him LORD or MASTER. Thus, to the Israelites, God is their CREATOR and MASTER.

    Your statement that God and Lord are basically the same is FALSE. God made Jesus both LORD (Master) and Christ (Acts 2:36). God did NOT make ANOTHER God beside himself.

    Ed
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "It is as if you were asking me to pretend that night can be day at the SAME time. Just the thought of it is an impossibility. "

    No its not ed, its called twilight :)

    "How can I even PRETEND that Jesus is God UNLESS I am as blind as a bat?"

    You'd have to be blind as a bat not to think Jesus is God Col 2:9 spells it out as does John chapter 1 and Luke 5...and I could go on and on and on...

    "LORD means MASTER and GOD means CREATOR. God commanded the Israelites to call Him LORD or MASTER. Thus, to the Israelites, God is their CREATOR and MASTER."

    Funny how you say this and they call Jesus Lord or master..hmm....wow, yet ANOTHER hint.
     
  9. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    LouisBooth,

    God MADE Jesus Lord or Master (Acts 2:36). If, as you say, LORD means God, then there would DEFINITELY be two Gods. One God is the CREATOR who MADE another God who is the CREATURE.

    Ed
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Umm..before that happened Ed, Jesus gave it up, see phil 2:5-8 It says Jesus gave it up THEN The Father exahaulted him. You should get that straight :)

    It is very clear in the bible that Jesus was the creator, and The father created through him.
     
  11. Yep, he made Jesus the man (his human nature) Lord, restoring him from his lowly state in which he submitted himself and became a bondservant.

    You are making a major philosophical assumption here. You are assuming that Jesus and the Father can't both be God at the same time and still only be one God.

    Again, you are assuming that they both have to be a different God. Ever heard the saying, "To assume is to make an *** out of U (you) and ME?"
     
  12. epobre

    epobre Guest

    +0
    ZoneChaos,

    What you are saying Zone is merely an assumption that is not supported by the Bible. The TRUTH is, God made Jesus Lord because "He has put all things under his feet." But when He says "all things are put under him," it is evident that He who put all things under him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to him, then the son himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under him, that God may be all in all (1 Cor. 15:27-2:cool: .

    I am not assuming that Jesus and the Father CAN'T be both God at the same time and still only be one God. I am stating a fact. If you say they are BOTH God(s) yet they are only ONE God, that's a major DEVIATION from logical thinking and mathematical laws.

    You are the one asssuming that God the creator is ONE God with the one He created. What I am saying is a fact. If Jesus whom God CREATED is God then there would be TWO Gods. One God who CREATED and the OTHER God who is the creature.

    Ed
     
  13. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Ed, I think you confused me with balron there :)

    but a ouple things i want to respond to in your post above...

    You may not be assuming it, but you beleive the assumption. No where is your view stated in scripture. Also, by accepting that tyhey both canot be the same God, you define what is and what is not the nature of God.. something you do not have the ability to do.

    First to clarify.. we say they are both "God" not "gods". Also, we know it is a major deviation from logical thinking. and we know it doe snot make sense, rationally. We, as humans cannot fully understand God, but just becasue we cannot understand, does not mean we ignore. Jesus' Divinity is clear in scripture. It can't be explained, but it is there none the less. I do not understand how they bpoth can be the same God and also be seperate. I do not understand how Jesus can be 100% a man and 100% God, but He is.

    God did not "create" Jesus. So... that assumpion no longer exists.
     
  14. epobre

    epobre Guest

    +0
    ZoneChaos,

    I am not defining what is and what is not the nature of God. The Bible does. The Bible says God is SPIRIT (John 4:24) and man is FLESH (Gen. 6:3). Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) WITH flesh and bones (Luke 24:39). Therefore, Jesus is NOT God.

    What you are IGNORING or REJECTING is Jesus' own words that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). You don't have to unerstand how God works wonders. Nobody is expecting you to do that. You don't have to understand how God created the universe. Understanding God doesn't have anything to do with KNOWING WHO God is. It's all in there.

    Jesus says that nobody knows WHO the son is but the Father and nobody knows WHO the Father is but the son (Luke 10:22). The Father has identified Jesus as His son (Matt. 3:17; Matt. 17:5). Jesus has idntified the FATHER as the ONLY true God (John 17:3). What mystery are you talking about?

    Gal. 4:4 says God sent His son "BORN of a woman..." Rev. 4:11 tells us that the Lord God Almighty who SAT on the throne, CREATED all things. And in Rev. 5:13, we see the one who SAT on the throne and the Lamb being worshipped together.

    Malachi 2:10 says we have ONE Father and only one God CREATED us all. And Jesus says he proceeded forth and came from God whom he calls HIS Father (John 8:42).

    Since the Bible doesn't LIE, then you must have gotten your idea that God did not "create" Jesus from a FALSE teacher.

    Ed
     
  15. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is God col 2:9 says that very clearly.,

    "Malachi 2:10 says we have ONE Father and only one God CREATED us all. "

    That's right God did create us. In John 1:3 it also shows that the Logos created us and the Logos is God. Then John chapter 1 goes on to say Jesus is the Logos. Jesus is God through him all things were made.
     
  16. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Yes you are. The Bible says Jesus is a man. You say Jesus is a man. Good so far. The Bible doe not say Jesus is just a amn. You say Jesus is just a man. thus you are defining what is ANd is not the natre of God, with views unsupported in scripture.

    No, I am ignoring your interpretation that "Only the Father is the only true God."
     
  17. Tesseract

    Tesseract New Member

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    lol.
     
  18. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Tesseract,

    I'm sorry I was not able to get on the board for a while so I ws not able to acknowledge your "hello."

    Plese tell me what made you laugh out loud.

    Thanks.

    Ed
     
  19. hwd007

    hwd007 New Member

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    re; " I wholeheartedly agree with Zone. NOTHING existed before God and God does NOT have a Father"

    Can someone please explain what Nothing actually is ?
     
  20. TOmNossor

    TOmNossor Senior Member

    +17
    Mormon
    This looks like a long ago resurrected thread.

    Of course as you might notice, this reminds me of Arius vs. Athanasius. But the thing is Justin Martyr and Christians before him knew that Genesis did not speak of creation ex nihilo. Tatian and Theophilus seemed to abandon tradition and postulate creation ex nihilo. When all Christians accepted this, the dual errors of Nicea were inevitable. So as Nicea said, Jesus is homoousian with God. But Athanasius and the term co-equal was too far, and Augustine explained the Trinity in a way that produced an illogical unity and distinctness.

    Without this error that Joseph Smith removed these big problems dissolve away in the bright dawn of the restoration.



    Charity, TOm
     
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