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NOTHING existed before God!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Dec 4, 2001.

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  1. nevetstrebla

    nevetstrebla Guest

    +0
    How many times and how many different scriptures will it take to prove to you all that Jesus and God are one. Every single time you all start a thread it is the same thing. The result is always the same as well. You never can win the argument because you lack proof. Why do you lack proof? Because the Bible is very clear that Jesus and God are one.
     
  2. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +23
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    Everyverse I have ever seen that someone who disagrees with the Trinity Doctrine uses, only shows support for parts of the Doctrine: "Jesus is a man" The Father is God".

    I have never been shown a verse that is evidence against any or all of the Trinity Doctrine.
     
  3. Archieve

    Archieve Guest

    +0
    Jesus is God's son. He is not God. If you tell a child that Jesus is God's son. they would know what that mean.
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "If you tell a child that Jesus is God's son. they would know what that mean. "

    If it was a jewish child that lived about 10 to 100 AD yes, he would, he would agree with what I told you ;)

    Jesus is God's son, but not in the way you say.
     
  5. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Nevetstrebla,

    You wrote:
    Who said Jesus is God - John, Paul, Ignatius, Clement, the Pope, YOU, etc...?

    Doesn't Jesus have any say about this? Why don't you ask Jesus himself? Afterall, "NO ONE knows WHO the son is except the FATHER and NO ONE knows WHO the FATHER is except the SON (Luke 10:22).

    Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40). Jesus says he is the SON of God (John 10:30). Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

    What proof are you talking about? You can line up 10 milllion people to say Jesus is God but the TRUTH will always remain - Jesus is a MAN (according to Jesus) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (according to Jesus).

    Ed
     
  6. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Actually, they wouldn't.. they wouldn't understand the relation ship of Father to Son, as it applies to God, and would instaed thikn of it as them to their Father here on earth, which is something totally different.
     
  7. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
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    ed,
    you said:
    "Who said Jesus is God - John, Paul, Ignatius, Clement, the Pope, YOU, etc...?
    Doesn't Jesus have any say about this? Why don't you ask Jesus himself? Afterall, "NO ONE knows WHO the son is
    except the FATHER and NO ONE knows WHO the FATHER is except the SON (Luke 10:22)."

    Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40). Jesus says he is the SON of God (John 10:30). Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

    What proof are you talking about? You can line up 10 milllion people to say Jesus is God but the TRUTH will always
    remain - Jesus is a MAN (according to Jesus) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (according to Jesus)."

    Blackhaw:

    the problem with what you are saying here is that how do you know Jesus said what you quoted? Did Jesus write it? No. John and Luke wrote it in your examples. So you are taking John's word in what he said Jesus said. Nowyou also said that John said that He was God. Why do you take John's word that He is quoting Jesus right in John 10:30 and 17:3 but He did not get John 1:1 right or other passages where He says that Jesus was God?

    Blackhaw
     
  8. No matter how many times you quote that, it doesn't disprove that Jesus was God. In fact, it goes very well along with this verse:

    Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

    Phl 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

    Phl 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

    Phl 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

    As we have explained numerous times, being the Son doesn't stop him from also being God. The Father calls him God, why don't you?

    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3

    If you are addressing one of the members of the Trinity, He could rightly be called YHWH, the name of the one true God. So yes, the Father is YHWH, the only true God. So is the Son. What you quoted disproves nothing.

    See my above refutations. The early church thought of Jesus as God. Thomas thought Jesus was God, and Jesus praised him for that belief. The Bible says he is God, yet you claim to believe the Bible, but ignore passages that point to Christs deity.

    Bible > Iglesia Ni Cristo
     
  9. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Blackhaw,

    You wrote:
    John 8:40, John 10:30 and John 17:3 are words of Jesus which apostle John heard and wrote. Here, apostle John is testifying to the things he HEARD Jesus say and in John 21:24-25, John wrote that his testimony is TRUE.

    These verses EXPLICITLY and UNEQUIVOCABLY mean what they say - that Jesus is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God and Jesus and the Father are ONE in caring for the sheep.

    John 1:1 are words of apostle John which do NOT clearly say that "Jesus" was God. This verse can be INTERPRETED in ways other than how Trinitarians interpret what John said.

    If what John testified to as Jesus' words is true, then there is no way he'd contradict Jesus.

    Ed
     
  10. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
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    Ed,

    you still did not reply to what I said.

    You said:

    "Who said Jesus is God - John, Paul, Ignatius, Clement, the Pope, YOU, etc...?"

    Whose words did you quote from in your examples?

    Luke and John.

    Yeah supposedly they wrote down what He said but Why do you think that they did? I am saying this because you stated that John's words were not a good authority. only Jesus' words. But you are using John as a reference as to what Jesus said. HMMMM.
     
  11. Archieve

    Archieve Guest

    +0
    Blackhaw Wrote:

    Black, who told you that Jesus is God? - your pastor?

    You can't say John, because he surely didn't.
     
  12. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
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    God did.


    Through the Bible. Through men that He ordained ot write it. One of them was the apostle John. I believed He was divnely inspired to write what he did. He was not perfect but God gave Him the perfect words to write. So i rely on John to give me an accurate description of what Jesus said and also truth. so even if John is not quoting Jesus I still believe that part of the Bbile as much as when He is quoting Jesus directly. Oh and yes John did say Jesus was God in the 1st cahpter.

    We can use other verses though;

    answer me this. How can the OT verse be true and the NT if there is only one Lord and there is not Trinity?

    Deut 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:"

    Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
    Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
     
  13. Archieve

    Archieve Guest

    +0
    BlackWrote:

    You do know that liars go to hell, right?

    God wouldn't lie to you and tell you that Jesus is God. You have just lied on God. You better pray that God doesn't destroy you for that lie.

     
  14. Archieve

    Archieve Guest

    +0
    Blackhaw Wrote:

    You better reread what you have told Ed, Blackhaw. Who words are you talking?

    Remember, liars have their part in the lake of fire.
     
  15. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
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    please answer my question besides jsut saying I lied. I personally do not think you can. The Lord has to be One and Jesus is Lord. But we know that God the fahter is Lord as stated in Deut. so what do we do? Is Deut wrong and there is really 2 gods or is Phillipians wrong? Please answer.

    Blackhaw
     
  16. Archieve

    Archieve Guest

    +0
    Blackhaw Wrote:

    Tell me how Jesus is Lord?

    Trinity believers say that both Jesus and the Holy Ghost is God.

    Jesus had the Holy Ghost. John had the Holy Ghost, many others in the bibel had the Holy Ghost. I have the Holy Ghost. Does that make all of us God?

    Was Melchisedec God?

    God made Jesus. Jesus is not God.
     
  17. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    Archieve ,

    please just answer my question. from above. I wi ll repost it for you in case you forgot.


    answer me this. How can the OT verse be true and the NT if there is only one Lord and there is not a Trinity?

    Deut 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:"

    Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
    Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


    Answer this question please. Do not try and sidetrack the conversation. Blackhaw
     
  18. Archieve

    Archieve Guest

    +0
    Blackhaw,

    Who wanted to be equal with God? Who has gotten kicked out of heaven?

    Ask yourself, if Jesus is God, why would he not refer to himself, when he talks about the Father?

    Why would he think it robbery to be equal with himself?

    Why would he pray to another God?

    Jesus is not God.
     
  19. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "why would he not refer to himself, when he talks about the Father? "

    Because HE IS NOT THE FATHER. How many times have we told you this?

    "Why would he think it robbery to be equal with himself?"

    "because the Son of Man came to serve, not to be served."
     
  20. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    "Who wanted to be equal with God? Who has gotten kicked out of heaven?"

    Hmmm. who could it be..hmmm SATAN. (sorry I could not help the church lady routine)

    "Ask yourself, if Jesus is God, why would he not refer to himself, when he talks about the Father?"

    becasue on Earth He was a man also. Thus He humbled himself even to death. even death on the cross.

    "Why would he think it robbery to be equal with himself?"

    He did not. Read the verse again.

    Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it NOT robbery to be equal with God:

    "Why would he pray to another God?"

    bewcause he was fully man while also being fully God. See that is the good news. God came down and became a man to save us from ourselves.

    You still have not answered my question though. Are there 2 lords or 1 Lord? If there is 1 Lord only (like Deut. 6:4 says) then why would Jesus be called Lord? How do reconcile this? please answer this specific question.

    Blackhaw

     
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