" Not one jot or tittle shall pass away "

[DaveDavids]

iirc, there was someone asking about what this has to do with a priest

So....

Hebrews 4:15

For we have not an high priest ( Christ ) which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin

" high priest "

αρχιερευς archiereus {ar-khee-er-yuce'} from 746 and 2409; TDNT - 3:265,349; n m AV - chief priest 64, high priest 58, chief of the priest 1; 123 1) chief priest, high priest

Strong's Greek 746:

αρχη arche {ar-khay'} from 756; TDNT - 1:479,81; n f AV - beginning 40, principality 8, corner 2, first 2, misc 6; 58 1) beginning, origin 2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader 3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause 4) the extremity of a thing 4a) of the corners of a sail 5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy 5a) of angels and demons


Strong's Greek 756:

αρχομαι archomai {ar'-khom-ahee} middle voice of 757 (through the implication of precedence); TDNT - 1:478,*; v AV - begin 83, rehearse from the beginning 1; 84 1) to be the first to do (anything), to begin 2) to be chief, leader, ruler 3) to begin, make a beginning

Strong's Greek 757

αρχω archo {ar'-kho} a primary word; TDNT - 1:478,81; v AV - rule over 1, reign over 1; 2 1) to be chief, to lead, to rule

And

ιερευς hiereus {hee-er-yooce'} from 2413; TDNT - 3:257,349; n m AV - priest 31, high priest 1; 32 1) a priest, one who offers sacrifices and in general in busied with sacred rites 1a) referring to priests of Gentiles or the Jews, 2) metaph. of Christians, because, purified by the blood of Christ

ιερος hieros {hee-er-os'} of uncertain affinity; TDNT - 3:221,349; adj AV - holy 2; 2 1) sacred, consecrated to the deity, pertaining to God 1a) sacred Scriptures, because inspired by God, treating of divine things and therefore to be devoutly revered


Now let's examine Christ quoting the Tanakh


Matthew 21:42

" Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes ? "

Here's the verse he quotes:

Psalms 118:22

" The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner "

Here's the two words:

לראש פנה - r'osh pinnah - head of the corner

Here's the gematria value:

( pinnah ) 135 + ( r'osh ) 531 = 666

Here's the Strong's Hebrew concordance listing:

ראש ro'sh {roshe} from an unused root apparently meaning to shake; TWOT - 2097; n m AV - head 349, chief 91, top 73, beginning 14, company 12, captain 10, sum 9, first 6, principal 5, chapiters 4, rulers 2, misc 23; 598 1) head, top, summit, upper part, chief, total, sum, height, front, beginning 1a) head (of man, animals) 1b) top, tip (of mountain) 1c) height (of stars) 1d) chief, head (of man, city, nation, place, family, priest) 1e) head, front, beginning 1f) chief, choicest, best 1g) head, division, company, band 1h) sum

פנה pinnah {pin-naw'}; TWOT - 1783a; n f AV - corner 22, chief 2, towers 2, bulwarks 1, stay 1; 28 1) corner 1a) corner (of square objects) 1b) corner (of ruler or chief - figurative.)

from 06434

פן pen {pane} from an unused root meaning to turn; TWOT - 1783a; n m AV - corner 2; 2 1) corner 1a) corner (of square objects) 1b) corner (of ruler or chief - figurative.)


Now, the Greek and the Hebrew, side by side:


αρχιερευς archiereus - high priest , from αρχη arche {ar-khay'}- beginning, principality , corner

לראש פנה - r'osh pinnah - head of the corner


I'm fairly certain Christ would have been well aware of gematria and " hidden knowledge " of the Hebrew scriptures

I know some like to claim that he merely had the words memorized, but I don't think his study of the Hebrew scriptures was anywhere near as dilettante as modern day peoples'

In fact sod pardes of scripture is usually revealed by the indwelling of the ruach hakodesh ( holy spirit ) according to classical rabbinical accounts

 

[Radagast]

I've just noticed something while studying Greek manuscripts and was wondering if someone can help clear this up for me

It stems from this verse:

Mat 5:18

" For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled "

The Greek says iota and keraia. The meaning is "not one letter or even the tiniest part of a letter" (in line with the first concordance you quoted).

The NIV translates well: For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The English word "tittle" does not appear in the Greek, so its meaning is irrelevant.

So what I am curious about here, is the fact that New Testament authors took the common abbreviated Christogram

ΧΣ

...which is normally written with the " little horn " ( titlo )

and they affixed the letter stigma ϛ, (στίγμα), which is originally a common Greek noun meaning "a mark, dot, puncture", or generally " a sign ",

to the Christogram

ΧΣϛ

This is not true. They did not do that.

The "number of the beast" is either written in words (ἑξακόσιοι ἑξήκοντα ἕξ = six hundred and sixty-six) or in symbols (χξϚ = chi-xi-stigma = 666).

You seem to be mixing up the upper case sigma (Σ) with the lower-case xi (ξ). They are totally different letters (also, the overbar used in nomina sacra and numerals is not a keraia).

There is no connection between "Christ" and "666."

 

[Radagast]

ΧΣς is not 666. Χξς (or ΧΞς) is the proper spelling. The letter ξ (or Ξ in capitals) is the one inserted (not affixed) between the letters of the abbreviated name of Christ, Χριστός. The letter ξ is sometimes called snake-like from its shape. So the number Χξς denotes anything or anyone that divides or destroys Christ, most notably the Devil.

The first part of what you say is correct, but the second part is wrong.

"Christ" is ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ or Χριστὸς, ending in a sigma (a lower-case sigma at the end of a word is written differently, as it also was in English several centuries ago).

The number 666 in symbols is χξϚ or χξϝ, ending in the obsolete letters stigma or digamma.

Sigma and stigma are totally different letters, although they do look very similar. Confusion doesn't normally arise, because the letter sigma used in numbers is always in the σ form.

 

[icxn]

The first part of what you say is correct, but the second part is wrong...

Thank you for the correction.

Quote:

One day, Pachomius came to Tabennisi and sat down to weave mats as he usually did. A young brother came and told him: “Father, we no longer weave like that any more. Our Father Theodore told us to do it this way.” Pachomius immediately stood up and said: “Very well. Come and sit down and show me.” The young brother showed him. Pachomius did not scold the young monk for speaking out of turn but set to work and did as he was told. - Pachomian Koinonia, Vol 1.​

 

[DaveDavids]

The Greek says iota and keraia. The meaning is "not one letter or even the tiniest part of a letter" (in line with the first concordance you quoted).

The NIV translates well: For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The English word "tittle" does not appear in the Greek, so its meaning is irrelevant.



This is not true. They did not do that.

The "number of the beast" is either written in words (ἑξακόσιοι ἑξήκοντα ἕξ = six hundred and sixty-six) or in symbols (χξϚ = chi-xi-stigma = 666).

You seem to be mixing up the upper case sigma (Σ) with the lower-case xi (ξ). They are totally different letters (also, the overbar used in nomina sacra and numerals is not a keraia).

There is no connection between "Christ" and "666."

And you're wrong

“IC XC” is a Christogram, a monogram of Jesus’ name.

“Jesus Christ”, when it is translated into Greek, looks like this:

ΙΗΣΟΥΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ

If we take the first and last letters of ΙΗΣΟΥΣ (“Jesus”) and ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ (“Christ”) we are left with:

ΙΣ ΧΣ

The sigma character (“Σ”) was often represented using a lunate sigma which looks like a “C”, thereby giving us:

IC XC

Finally, a line (“titlo”) is often placed over each pair of letters to indicate that it is an abbreviated sacred name. So there we go! “IC XC” is yet another shorthand for writing “Jesus Christ” in Greek.


The number of the beast 666, is written as ΧΣϛ

That is the first and last letters of the name Christ

ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ

with the letter for the number 6, ϛ

Leaving us with the fact that

XC + ϛ = 666

 

[icxn]

...
Leaving us with the fact that

XC + ϛ = 666

XC (or ΧΣ) = 606 (+ ς = 612)

 

[DaveDavids]

XC (or ΧΣ) = 606 (+ ς = 612)

um, no

In Greek numerals

X = 600
ξ = 60
ς = 6

In handwritten Greek during the Hellenistic period (4th and 3rd centuries BC), the epigraphic form of Σ was simplified into a C-like shape

Here's a chart of how Greek and Hebrew numerals are written:

 

[Radagast]

And you're wrong

“IC XC” is a Christogram, a monogram of Jesus’ name.

Yes, I know that. I did not deny that.

“Jesus Christ”, when it is translated into Greek, looks like this:

ΙΗΣΟΥΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ

Yes, I know that (although "translated" is the wrong word).

The number of the beast 666, is written as ΧΣϛ

That is wrong in two ways.

The number 666 in symbols is χξϚ or χξϝ, (Chi-Xi-Stigma or Chi-Xi-Digamma).

You are mixing up the upper case sigma (Σ) with the lower-case xi (ξ), and you are mixing up lower case sigma at the end of a word (ς) with stigma, a completely different letter that looks very similar (Ϛ).

Leaving us with the fact that

XC + ϛ = 666

Absolute rubbish. Please go and study this topic before you post any more.

 

[Radagast]

XC (or ΧΣ) = 606 (+ ς = 612)

Actually, if you check Greek numerals - Wikipedia you will see that Σ has the numerical value 200, so that XC (or ΧΣ) = 800.

Therefore XCϚ (or ΧΣϚ or XCϝ or ΧΣϝ) would be 806.

You are mixing up sigma and stigma again (or @DaveDavids is).

Sigma - Wikipedia

Stigma (letter) - Wikipedia

 

[Steve Petersen]

Unsubbing. This thread is inane.

 

[DaveDavids]

Perhaps you need to go back to basics, friends

The following from wiki:

The Number of the beast is described in Revelation 13:15–18. In the Greek manuscripts, the Book of Revelation is titled The Apocalypse of John and this number is rendered in Greek numerical form as χξϛ, or sometimes literally as ἑξακόσιοι ἑξήκοντα ἕξ, hexakósioi hexēkonta héx, "six hundred and sixty-six". There are several interpretations-translations for the meaning of the phrase "Here is Wisdom, Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast" where the peculiar Greek word ψηφισάτω (psephisato) is used. Possible translations include not only "to count", "to reckon" but also "to vote" or "to decide".

In the Textus Receptus, derived from Byzantine text-type manuscripts, the number 666 is represented by the final 3 letters χξϛ.

17καὶ ἵνα μή τις δύνηται ἀγοράσαι ἢ πωλῆσαι εἰ μὴ ὁ ἔχων τὸ χάραγμα, τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ θηρίου ἢ τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ. 18Ὧδε ἡ σοφία ἐστίν· ὁ ἔχων τὸν νοῦν ψηφισάτω τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦ θηρίου· ἀριθμὸς γὰρ ἀνθρώπου ἐστί· καὶ ὁ ἀριθμὸς αὐτοῦ χξϛʹ.[10]

The last letter of the Greek alphabet is not the equivalent of the English letter "Z", but "Omega". The Greek letter stigma ligature (ϛ) represents the number 6.

In the Novum Testamentum Graece, the number is represented by the final three words, ἑξακόσιοι ἑξήκοντα ἕξ, meaning "six hundred sixty-six":

17καὶ ἵνα μή τις δύνηται ἀγοράσαι ἢ πωλῆσαι εἰ μὴ ὁ ἔχων τὸ χάραγμα, τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ θηρίου ἢ τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ. 18ὧδε ἡ σοφία ἐστίν· ὁ ἔχων νοῦν ψηφισάτω τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦ θηρίου, ἀριθμὸς γὰρ ἀνθρώπου ἐστίν· καὶ ὁ ἀριθμὸς αὐτοῦ ἑξακόσιοι ἑξήκοντα ἕξ.


----------------------

Btw, since the numbers 666 and 144,000 are straight out of Babylonian texts on astronomy that priests used ( Sumero-Akkadian ), feel free to show me some examples of your study in this area ( I have plenty )

Now, since the mathematical value of a " mark " is not 666, but 400 ( anybody who's studied Hebrew numerology and it's origin would know this very basic fact ), lets see somebody explain how we derive 400 from 666 and 144,000

Mesopotamian priests knew

Take care Steve *waves*

 

[DaveDavids]

Let's also try this:

Revelation uses a very common literary convention drawn from earlier priestly texts, which is that a god's name was written as a number

I'd like somebody to show me an example of this from their studies

When you have done this, and shown me you've actually studied the topic like I have, I'll consider " debating " it's relevance

 

[Der Alte]

Luke 6:39

 

[icxn]

Actually, if you check Greek numerals - Wikipedia you will see that Σ has the numerical value 200, so that XC (or ΧΣ) = 800.

Therefore XCϚ (or ΧΣϚ or XCϝ or ΧΣϝ) would be 806.

You are mixing up sigma and stigma again (or @DaveDavids is).

Sigma - Wikipedia

Stigma (letter) - Wikipedia

I did! I probably need more coffee!

 

[Radagast]

I did! I probably need more coffee!

Here you go!

 

[DaveDavids]

Let's turn to the stigma and it's Hebrew cognate the letter Taw

ϛ

First, we look at the fact that " stigmata " is the plural of " stigma "

The term originates from the line at the end of Saint Paul's Letter to the Galatians where he says, "I bear on my body the marks of Jesus."

Stigmata is the plural of the Greek word στίγμα stigma, meaning a mark, tattoo, or brand such as might have been used for identification of an animal or slave.

Christ's hands with stigmata, depicted on a Franciscan church in Lienz, Austria

...." stigma " is a common Greek noun, and I'm sure I already posted this at least once :

" The name, stigma (στίγμα), is originally a common Greek noun meaning "a mark, dot, puncture", or generally "a sign", from the verb στίζω ("to puncture"); the related but distinct word stigme (στιγμή) is the classical and post-classical word for "geometric point; punctuation mark". Stigmawas co-opted as a name specifically for the στ sign, evidently because of the acrophonic value of its initial st- as well as the analogy with the name of sigma. "

The Greek Concordance says:

stigma: a mark or brand

Original Word: στίγμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: stigma
Phonetic Spelling: (stig'-mah)
Short Definition: a mark or brand
Definition: a mark or brand

HELPS Word-studies

4742 stígma – properly, a brand mark burned into the skin; (figuratively) "holy scars" that go with serving Jesus as Lord (used only in Gal 6:17).

4742 /stígma ("brand-mark") refers to the literal scars on Paul from the lictor's rods at Pisidian Antioch, the stoning at Lystra, etc. These "marked Paul off" as the slave of Jesus (bearing "holy scars for Christ").

[Brand-marks (4742 /stígma), like "tatoos" (Gk stigmata), were burned into the skin of slaves in NT times – proving they belonged to a particular owner

------------------------


While stigma represents the number 6 in Greek, 6 in Hebrew is not Taw, it's Vav

However, Vav means " nail / peg / hook " ( What Christ was hung with ) and it's actually Taw that is the textual cognate to the Greek Stigma

Vav = 6
Stigma = 6

6- Stigma = mark / sign
400 - Taw = mark / sign

Taw is generally believed to be derived from the Egyptian hieroglyph meaning "mark"

In gematria, taw represents the number 400, the largest single number that can be represented without using the sophit (final) forms

Taw has been written as

X
†
ת


The Taw is generally taught to be the mark placed on the heads in Ezekial 9:4 and on Cain in Genesis, however they are two entirely different words:



" And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof "

" And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him "


Ezekiel:

תו tav {tawv} from 08427; TWOT - 2496a; n m AV - mark 2, desire 1; 3 1) desire, mark 1a) mark (as a sign of exemption from judgment)

From:

תוה tavah {taw-vaw'} a primitive root; TWOT - 2496; v AV - scrabble 1, set 1; 2 1) to scrabble, limit, mark, make or set a mark 1a) (Piel) to mark 1b) (Hiphil) to set a mark

And

Genesis:

אות 'owth {oth} from 0225 (in the sense of appearing); TWOT - 41a; n f AV - sign(s) 60, token(s) 14, ensign(s) 2, miracles 2, mark 1; 79 1) sign, signal 1a) a distinguishing mark 1b) banner 1c) remembrance 1d) miraculous sign 1e) omen 1f) warning 2) token, ensign, standard, miracle, proof

 

[DaveDavids]

Continued:

We all know Christ is the " aleph-tav " ( first and last ) and that this remains untranslated in Genesis 1:1

את

את 'eth {ayth} ; TWOT - 186; untranslated particle AV - not translated; 22 1) sign of the definite direct object, not translated in English but generally preceding and indicating the accusative

apparent contracted from 0226 in the demonstrative sense of entity:

אות 'owth {oth} probably from 0225 (in the sense of appearing); TWOT - 41a; n f AV - sign(s) 60, token(s) 14, ensign(s) 2, miracles 2, mark 1; 79 1) sign, signal 1a) a distinguishing mark 1b) banner 1c) remembrance 1d) miraculous sign 1e) omen 1f) warning 2) token, ensign, standard, miracle, proof

Aleph-Tav את is then said to be from אות 'owth ( mark / sign / signal )


So, I'll ask again

New Testament authors would have been intimately familiar with Hebrew gematria and exegesis ( If you doubt that we can start a separate thread to discuss origins of numerology in ancient texts, something I am quite familiar with ) , and the author/s of Revelation would have been well acquainted with the fact that tav / stigma do not = 666, rather Tav ( a mark ) = 400

144,000 and 666 are taken directly from priestly texts on astronomy that explain how to calculate " signs in the sky ", and anybody even remotely familiar with mathematical astronomy knows that the reason we see " signs " like eclipses ( Which the New Testament mentions quite commonly ) is because the Sun is approximately 400 times the size of the Moon and approximately 400 times the distance from earth

It should be easy to explain how one derives 400 ( the real value of a mark ) from 666 and 144,000

 

[icxn]

Luke 6:39:
He also told them this parable: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit?

I don't know if this was addressed to me, but I will take it. Inasmuch as I find pleasure in winners and likes, reproaches and humiliations are much more beneficial for the healing of my vainglorious soul.

Thank you.

Quote:

Believe that dishonors and reproaches are medicines that heal the pride of thy soul, and pray for those who reproach thee, as for true physicians of thy soul, being assured that he who hates dishonor, hates humility, and he who avoids those who grieve him, flees from meekness. - St. Dorotheos of Gaza​

 

[Radagast]

Let's turn to the stigma and it's Hebrew cognate the letter Taw

Stigma is not cognate to Taw; the letter stigma was only invented about 800 years after Jesus; and the connections you're trying to make are all nonsense.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.



Luke 24:44... post resurrection Jesus to his followers

Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”


Jesus fulfilled the Scriptures.

The New Testament completed the Old Testament.