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Not everyone is predestined. An in depth look at Romans 8:28-30

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neostarwcc, Aug 10, 2020.

  1. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc We are saved purely by the work and grace of God. Supporter

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    Paul said in Romans 8:29 that those who God foreknew he predestined to be conformed to the image of his son. Arminians argue that this means that God looked into the future and saw those who would accept God.

    But thats not what Paul said. Paul said "those who God foreknew, he predestined (look up foreknowledge in the bible and see what it means) If Arminian logic were put into these words of Pauls than Paul said God predestined everybody. Because those who God foreknew, he predestined. Yet, we know this isn't true. Otherwise we're teaching universalism here.

    Paul then goes on to say in verse 30. That he justifed these people, he sanctified them, and he ultimately GLORIFIED them.

    So another point to bring up. If it is true that God looked into the future and saw who would believe, how is perseverance of the saints not true, if he predestined, justified, sanctified, and ultimately glorified these people? How can these people lose their salvation from a lack of faith? To become glorified is to be made completely Holy ,sinless, and eternally secure FOREVER. If God promised his sheep eternal life, how can they lose that life? If they can lose it than its not eternal is it? It would be temporary life.

    Paul meant in Romans 8:29-30 exactly what he meant. God elected individuals by no fault or trait alone. It had nothing to do with them, it was the gift of God and God did it because he felt like it and because he's a God of mercy. And it is these people that God will raise on the last day. And nobody, not even Satan himself can thwart God's election. This is further backed up in Pauls other letters. However, we dont see a single instance in the NT (or OT for that matter) of God looking into the future and seeing who would accept him. This is purely a manmade thought not found anywhere in scripture. Especially in Romans 8:29-30.

    To be called by God is to be called as his own. Its to have the Holy Spirit regenerate your wicked soul into a Holy soul capable of accepted by God in the first place. If God looked into the future without his interference he would just see sinful man doing what sinful men do. He would see them lost. God had to interfere or none of us would have been given the chance at salvation. That's a fact.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
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  2. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    God can certainly predestine from before time began, to save everyone who will accept His help (charity/grace/mercy/forgiveness/Love).

    The foreknowledge is knowing from the beginning of human time who throughout time would accept God’s charity, which God at the end of time would have perfect unchangeable historic knowledge of. Since God is outside of time existing at the end of time and the beginning of time at the same time, could convey that historic knowledge back to himself at the beginning of time.
     
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  3. alllivesmatter

    alllivesmatter EL ROI

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    I am surprised there were not more replies.But there have been so many threads on this subject. Personally, my mind changes every time I read another opinion. It is a tough subject. For me, at least.
     
  4. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Sure, the elect are the elect. But we don’t know with perfect certainty who they, the sheep, are. We can’t predict who will persevere to the end and who will not, including ourselves. That involves God’s foreknowledge.
     
  5. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Witness

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    Romans 8:29. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be
    conformed to the image of His Son,
    that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    The conversation has thus far centered on the word predestined, (and a little of foreknew)
    but we should consider the purpose: "conformed to the image of His Son"
    as was indicated by the previous verse:

    Romans 8:28. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
    to those who are the called according to His purpose.

    Not everyone who responds to the call do so with a heart to comply to that purpose,
    for "many are called, but few are chosen". There is an appeal to "accept Christ as your Savior,
    and you will go to heaven when you die". Much less to be "crucified with Christ". This is why the
    next verse spells out this plan of The Father's Will: justified and glorified. Other letters of Paul go
    into more details of sanctification that precedes the glory.
    Hence, we find at the conclusion of the matter:

    Revelation 17:14. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    Ephesians 1:11. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to
    the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
     
  6. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    One thing that concerns me most is that people may actually believe that they're righteous, being satisfied that they're doing the right thing, by nothing more than having faith rather than by actually being righteous. Most agree that God can make us righteous, can sanctify us rather than leaving us only "imputedly" righteous or snow covered dung-heaps as it were, but that this is no concern of His as pertaining to salvation.

    Others, OTOH, believe that this very righteousness that He wants to place in our minds and write on our hearts is something that is received by faith, and then must be expressed and acted on as we choose to remain in Him and cooperate with grace, living by the Spirit, persevering in doing good (Rom 2:7), washing our robes (rev 22:14), working out our salvation (Phil 2:12), "investing our talents" as we do the best we can with whatever time and opportunities exist for the remainder of our lives, pressing on and straining towards that which is ahead (Phil 3:13): "...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." (Phil 3:9). Gaining ground overall even as we may well take a step or two backwards at times.

    This is the righteousness that man was made for to begin with-and the primary aspect of this righteousness is relationship or communion with God first above all else, a relationship that Adam essentially spurned and scorned by his act of disobedience. This is the union that Jesus came to accomplish as He reconciles us with God. The nature of this relationship is love and that same love is the very essence of the justice or righteousness that God works within us as we fellowship with Him. It fulfills the greatest commandments-and thereby the law- and otherwise produces fruit in our lives (such as acts done "for the least of these" in Matt 25 which separates the sheep from the goats) by which we should be known.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020 at 9:00 PM
  7. Amittai

    Amittai monitor evaluator

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    Yes. When you help another Christian gain their crown because it made them able to help another one. This is what trading with talents means.

    Argumentative Arminians and argumentative Calvinists want you to argue against straw men with straw men.

    "Good works which God prepared" as per your logo, are Holy Spirit fuelled and not burdensome. They can be just lifting up our needs to Him - even wordlessly.

    Thank you for being among us & helping us.
     
  8. alllivesmatter

    alllivesmatter EL ROI

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    We shouldn't be able to see what our future will be. I think it is as it should be. I think if we were not destined by God we would have no interest in God and all it contains. So those that love God and strive for a Godly life should not be questioning whether they are Gods. Take heart.:amen:
     
  9. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    It's a subject I've managed to avoid all together, and I think that's been good for me. It's possible to take several verses and they seem to say one thing. And another several seem to say the opposite. Everyone throws Bible verses back and forth and it gets maddening. I just stay out of it. There are some good Reformed minds out there, and some good Arminian minds out there, and many, many minds who don't fall into either camp. And that's ok.
     
  10. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Oh, I agree we can have a strong level of assurance at least, based on God's goodness, trustworthiness, promises, grace-and our responses to it all, to Him. Fruit, IOW, should be obvious enough. But while He's perfect and true, we're still the wildcard in it all-which is why Scripture exhorts and warns and encourages and admonishes believers to persevere in living as they should, described in a variety of ways. A little humility is in order in my opinion, in light of our weaknesses, limitations, and sin. God, alone, knows with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not.
     
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