Not even a local flood

Sayre

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Hi...

Just wondering how many fellow TE'ers out there have moved away from the idea of a flood all together.

I recognise it as nothing but "true myth", to borrow the term from CS Lewis.

If I understand A.N.E. cosmology, the dome was solid, and there were waters above it. When the noahic flood happened, this dome literally broke (in other words, their entire universe shattered) and there was a global flood.

I think in proper context, that the way the bible describes the flood cannot be taken literally, and a "local flood" is just a wishy washy toned down literalism... and doesn't go far enough to solve the problems we have biblically with a large scale flood.

Can we just accept it as mythology and move on from here?
 

gluadys

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Hi...

Just wondering how many fellow TE'ers out there have moved away from the idea of a flood all together.

I recognise it as nothing but "true myth", to borrow the term from CS Lewis.

If I understand A.N.E. cosmology, the dome was solid, and there were waters above it. When the noahic flood happened, this dome literally broke (in other words, their entire universe shattered) and there was a global flood.

I think you are combining some ANE cosmology with some modern creationist interpretations along the line of a water canopy.

Some creationists interpret the firmament as made of water (instead of holding up water as a dome would do) and see it as the source of water for the flood.

But ANE cosmology sees it as a dome, a structure solid enough and strong enough to keep the upper waters up. No collapse of the dome though since other scriptures refer to the firmament as still being in existence long after the flood. (Psalm 19, Psalm 150, Ezekiel 1:22-26, Daniel 12:3) The firmament is seen as a permanent part of nature and there is no scriptural suggestion that it ever collapsed.

The water for the flood came from rain as "the windows of heaven" were opened.



I think in proper context, that the way the bible describes the flood cannot be taken literally, and a "local flood" is just a wishy washy toned down literalism... and doesn't go far enough to solve the problems we have biblically with a large scale flood.

Can we just accept it as mythology and move on from here?


I fully agree. Though we ought to remember that sometimes myths have a historical core. I regret I did not bookmark an article I came across recently that purported to explain the whole flood story as an actual local flood involving a single barge with a few animals on it that was grounded for a time on an island. Looked interesting.

But that doesn't make the biblical story and its pagan analogues anything other than a myth.
 
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SayaOtonashi

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It was a local flood.

When you read an English translation of the biblical account of the flood, you will undoubtedly notice many words and verses that seem to suggest that the waters covered all of planet earth.3 However, one should note that today we look at everything from a global perspective, whereas the Bible nearly always refers to local geography. You may not be able to determine this fact from our English translations, so we will look at the original Hebrew, which is the word of God. The Hebrew words which are translated as "whole earth" or "all the earth" are kol (Strong's number H3605), which means "all," and erets (Strong's number H776), which means "earth," "land," "country," or "ground."4 We don't need to look very far in Genesis (Genesis 2) before we find the Hebrew words kol erets.

The name of the first is Pishon; it flows around the whole [kol] land [erets] of Havilah, where there is gold. (Genesis 2:11)
And the name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole [kol] land [erets] of Cush. (Genesis 2:13)
Obviously, the description of kol erets is modified by the name of the land, indicating a local area from the context. In fact, the term kol erets is nearly always used in the Old Testament to describe a local area of land, instead of our entire planet.5


owever, there are many more examples of where kol erets is used without reference to any specific land, although the context clearly indicates a local area. For example, in Genesis 11 (the Tower of Babel) the text says, "the whole [kol] earth [erets] used the same language."6 We know that this reference is not really to the earth at all (and certainly not to the "whole earth"), but to the people of the earth, who all lived in one geographic location. It wasn't until later that God scattered the people over the face of the earth.6 There are many other examples of where kol erets actually refers to people rather than the geography of the "whole earth":

Shall not the Judge of all [kol] the earth [erets] deal justly?" (Genesis 18:25) (God judges the people of the earth, not the earth itself)
Now behold, today I am going the way of all [kol] the earth [erets], and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the LORD your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed. (Joshua 23:14) (Joshua was going the way of all people in the earth, whose ultimate destiny is death.)
And all [kol] the people of the land [erets] entered the forest, and there was honey on the ground. (1 Samuel 14:25) (The words "the people of" are added to the English, since they are not found in the Hebrew. The actual translation would be "all the land entered the forest," obviously referring to the people and not to the land itself moving into the forest.)
While all [kol] the country [erets] was weeping with a loud voice, all the people passed over. (2 Samuel 15:23) (Obviously, the earth cannot weep with a loud voice.)
"I am going the way of all [kol] the earth [erets]. Be strong, therefore, and show yourself a man. (1 Kings 2:2) (David was going the way of all people in the earth, whose ultimate destiny is death.)
He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all [kol] the earth [erets]. (1 Chronicles 16:14) (Judgments are done against people, not the planet)
Sing to the LORD, all [kol] the earth [erets]; Proclaim good tidings of His salvation from day to day. (1 Chronicles 16:23) (The people sing, not the planet)
Tremble before Him, all [kol] the earth [erets]; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved. (1 Chronicles 16:30) (This does not refer to earthquakes!)
Let all [kol] the earth [erets] fear the LORD; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. (Psalm 33:8) (People, not planets, fear the Lord)
For the choir director. A Song. A Psalm.) Shout joyfully to God, all the earth; (Psalm 66:1) (People shout, not the earth)
"All the earth will worship Thee, And will sing praises to Thee; They will sing praises to Thy name." Selah. (Psalm 66:4) (People worship, not the earth)
Sing to the LORD a new song; Sing to the LORD, all [kol] the earth [erets]. (Psalm 96:1) (People sing, not the earth)
Worship the LORD in holy attire; Tremble before Him, all [kol] the earth [erets]. (Psalm 96:9) (People worship, not the earth)
Shout joyfully to the LORD, all [kol] the earth [erets]; Break forth and sing for joy and sing praises. (Psalm 98:4) (People shout, not the earth)
(A Psalm for Thanksgiving.) Shout joyfully to the LORD, all [kol] the earth [erets]. (Psalm 100:1) (People shout, not the earth)

He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all [kol] the earth [erets]. (Psalm 105:7) (Judgments are done against people, not the planet)
"The whole [kol] earth [erets] is at rest and is quiet; They break forth into shouts of joy. (Isaiah 14:7) (People shout, not the earth)
 
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S

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I don't think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

A very plausible theory concerning how the Biblical flood may have occurred, was first described in the research published in the 1970's by oceanographer Dr. Kenneth J. Hsu, and then by the more recent research paper published in Nature in 2009 by Daniel Garcia-Castellanos, is that it was actually a massive flood that affected ONLY the entire Mediterranean Ocean basin, which was where mankind is thought to have orginated.

This theory is widely supported by considerable geologic evidence, which suggests that the northward movement of the African plate once closed off the Gibraltar Strait. Since more water evaporates off the surface of the Mediterranean Ocean than flows into it from rivers, closure of the Straits of Gibraltar would have caused the Mediterranean to dry up- forcing the early civilizations that lived in this area to move down into the basin as the water level dropped and dropped and dropped.

Eventually, continuing plate motion caused downwarping of the earth's crust at Gibraltar, allowing Atlantic ocean water to catastrophically flow back in and fill the Mediterranean Ocean basin- which would have wiped out all the people living there.

The possibility of a massive, but not global, flood that wiped out all of civilization that existed at that time may be supported by a verse in the New Testament:

2 Peter 2:
5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people. So here, the Bible appears to be referring to only the ancient world where people lived, and not the entire earth.

Here is a well written summary, complete with many references, that explains this further: The Mediterranean Flood.

-----------------------------

The early history of the earth, when plate tectonic activity first started, may provide another, probably less plausible, explanation of how the Biblical flood may have occurred.

When the Chinese climbed Chomolunga (as they call Everest) in 1975, they brought back rocks from the summit that had fossil shells- indicating that either ocean water had covered the summit, or that the summit rocks were originally formed below sea level.

Plate tectonic theory today holds that the latter is most likely true- that the rocks that make up the Himalayas were originally formed in a shallow sea (the Tethys Sea) sandwiched between the Indian and Asian continents, and were pushed up as these two land masses collided.

But what is interesting here is that before plate tectonic activity started, mountain building processes were not yet active, and so the earth must have been quite flat. As a matter of fact, if ocean water was as abundant as it now is, the entire surface of the earth may originally have been entirely below sea level- and the first dry land would only have formed after plate tectonic activity started.

So if the Biblical flood had occurred just after the first land mass appeared above the ocean surface, it wouldn't have taken much of a storm to entirely inundate the new land area; much like Bangladesh is so badly flooded when an Indian ocean typhoon or tsunami occurs.

Now paleontologists are quick to point out that there is no evidence that people were present on the new land when the first continent was formed, so linking Noah's adventure to an early period of the earth's history, when only a small amount of easily-flooded dry land was available, is speculative.

-----------------

So my point here is to show that the description of the Biblical flood is a classic example of where a better interpretation of the Bible and a better understanding of science has led to a reconciliation of ideas that at one point seemed diametrically opposite.


.
 
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sfs

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Regarding theory 1: The Mediterranean basin is not where mankind is generally thought to have originated.

Regarding theory 2: Mountains were formed at least 2 billion years before humans appeared on Earth. I'd say that postulating human presence then is several steps below "speculative".
 
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S

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Regarding theory 1: The Mediterranean basin is not where mankind is generally thought to have originated.

True enough- currently, it is believed that the earliest human beings originated in East Africa; most probably in what is now Ethiopia. Again, though, my point is not to get into the fine details and try and "proof" that the Biblical flood actually happened as some would interpret the Bible to describe, but rather to point out that until the work of Kenneth Hsu was published, nobody ever thought that floods of the magnitude of the Mediterranean flood were possible.

Regarding theory 2: Mountains were formed at least 2 billion years before humans appeared on Earth. I'd say that postulating human presence then is several steps below "speculative".

I agree- and stated just that.
 
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gluadys

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Surely the problem with the idea of a flood wiping out the majority of humanity is that we don't see a sufficient genetic bottleneck to justify it?

Exactly.

Further we have lots of evidence that there were other civilizations all over the globe at the time (Egyptian, Indus Valley, China, Japan, Central American) so there is no way the majority of humanity could have been wiped out by a local flood. Nor do their written records show these civilizations to have been disrupted by a global flood.
 
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Anthony Puccetti

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Hi...

Just wondering how many fellow TE'ers out there have moved away from the idea of a flood all together.

I recognise it as nothing but "true myth", to borrow the term from CS Lewis.

If I understand A.N.E. cosmology, the dome was solid, and there were waters above it. When the noahic flood happened, this dome literally broke (in other words, their entire universe shattered) and there was a global flood.

I think in proper context, that the way the bible describes the flood cannot be taken literally, and a "local flood" is just a wishy washy toned down literalism... and doesn't go far enough to solve the problems we have biblically with a large scale flood.

Can we just accept it as mythology and move on from here?

I'm not a believer in evolution theory,but if you accept scripture as divinely inspired and true,and that God has all power over nature and acts upon it,you should accept the flood story as something that actually happened. Noah and his sons are presented as historical characters. The dome of ancient cosmology does not need to be taken as a solid thing,just as scientists who believe in Higgs' field do not think that there is a actual field on the outskirts of the universe owned by Higgs. The opening of the dome does not entail that the universe shattered. It's just rainfall. Language does not have to be intended as literal to represent what is actual.
 
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gluadys

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I'm not a believer in evolution theory,but if you accept scripture as divinely inspired and true,and that God has all power over nature and acts upon it,you should accept the flood story as something that actually happened.

I don't think that necessarily follows. Or rather, I think there is more to consider than the power of God. There is also the character of God. Not just what God can do, but what God will do and will not do, because God is who God is.

Most people who use the argument of God's power to effect miracles are thinking about how God could cause the flood. But that is the least of the problems with the flood story seen as history. The real problem is that history--neither human nor natural--presents any record of an actual flood beyond a local/regional level anywhere in the world at any time in the earth's history.

So let's grant the power of God to bring about the flood. And grant the power of God to remove all evidence that the flood occurred. And grant the power of God to insert evidence of historical events that could not possibly be consistent with a flood.

God could do all of this. But it basically comes down to working one set of miracles to make something happen that is supposed to be a lesson for us and then another set of miracles to remove all evidence that the first miracles happened--a set of miracles to coverup earlier miraculous happenings.

Just why would God do this? Is this consistent with the truthful, faithful character of God? What is the point of making creation look as if no such flood ever happened, as must be the case if God, by his power did make it happen? Is God in the business of deliberately confusing us?


Noah and his sons are presented as historical characters.

I don't see any evidence of that either. Noah and his sons are presented in the bible in exactly the same way as other flood survivors are presented in the flood myths of other cultures.

The dome of ancient cosmology does not need to be taken as a solid thing,just as scientists who believe in Higgs' field do not think that there is a actual field on the outskirts of the universe owned by Higgs. The opening of the dome does not entail that the universe shattered. It's just rainfall. Language does not have to be intended as literal to represent what is actual.

I am glad to see you agree with that. But we should also consider not what we would like to interpret literally or not literally, but what the original writer and those who first heard these stories would take to be literal or not.

To them, a literal dome was probably the most sensible interpretation of the text and the intended meaning the author wished to convey.

Of course, we don't need to take it the same way. And I certainly agree there is no suggestion the author intended to convey the sort of massive, destructive, earth-shattering events some modern interpreters present. He simply wanted to say that it rained. "Open the windows of heaven" was the culturally appropriate way to convey that meaning.
 
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Anthony Puccetti

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I don't think that necessarily follows. Or rather, I think there is more to consider than the power of God. There is also the character of God. Not just what God can do, but what God will do and will not do, because God is who God is.

Most people who use the argument of God's power to effect miracles are thinking about how God could cause the flood. But that is the least of the problems with the flood story seen as history. The real problem is that history--neither human nor natural--presents any record of an actual flood beyond a local/regional level anywhere in the world at any time in the earth's history.

The biblical story is a record. How do you determine that the biblical story is not a record of an actual flood? Since it happened in pre-historic time,and all humanity except Noah and his family was destroyed,the event would not have been recorded when or around the time when it happened,but would have been passed down by word of mouth. The words "whole world" or "whole earth" do not need to be taken as meaning the entire globe,because such expressions were sometimes used to mean a vast area or a large amount of people (as when the pharisees said of Jesus: "Look,the whole world has gone after him!"),and the words world or earth were sometimes used simply to mean "land".


So let's grant the power of God to bring about the flood. And grant the power of God to remove all evidence that the flood occurred. And grant the power of God to insert evidence of historical events that could not possibly be consistent with a flood.


What would the evidence of the flood be after thousands of years,and how would you know whether or not there is evidence for it? Scientific presuppositions and models of what the evidence would be are not reliable,as they cannot be confirmed by demonstration,and the evidence would not clearly point to a certain cause anyway. What historical events are not consistent with the flood,and how do you determine that they exclude the the possibility of a flood?


God could do all of this. But it basically comes down to working one set of miracles to make something happen that is supposed to be a lesson for us and then another set of miracles to remove all evidence that the first miracles happened--a set of miracles to coverup earlier miraculous happenings.


Who says that God worked miracles in removing evidence of the flood? Would it be miraculous for God to restore the earth through natural causes,and for the traces of the flood to gradually? That's just divine providence.


Just why would God do this? Is this consistent with the truthful, faithful character of God? What is the point of making creation look as if no such flood ever happened, as must be the case if God, by his power did make it happen? Is God in the business of deliberately confusing us?


No,but it seems like you are trying to confuse people. Your supposition is a twisted way of thinking that only atheists and evolutionists propose. People who believe the book of Genesis don't suspect that God is confusing them. They don't believe in the biblical stories while at the same time believing the assumptions objections of skeptics. They don't take it for granted that the assumptions and objections of skeptics are right.


I don't see any evidence of that either. Noah and his sons are presented in the bible in exactly the same way as other flood survivors are presented in the flood myths of other cultures.


What way of presentation do you mean? And how is that an argument against the reality of the flood? To me,it just shows that the pagan cultures preserved,inaccurately,the memory of the great flood. Its not as if a biblical story is must be unhistorical because pagan cultures have similar stories.


I am glad to see you agree with that. But we should also consider not what we would like to interpret literally or not literally, but what the original writer and those who first heard these stories would take to be literal or not.

To them, a literal dome was probably the most sensible interpretation of the text and the intended meaning the author wished to convey.


It is not always possible to determine from historical and literary evidence whether or not an author intended words to be taken literally,or if he did,if the words should be taken exactly or in the most common meaning.
Scientists who believe in Higgs' field do not think it is like an earthly,solid field,but they do use the word field literally,in the sense of a region or space. Likewise,the dome of ancient cosmology may not have been understood to be a solid dome. Words which are intended literally do not always represent things exactly or in the plainest meaning.


Of course, we don't need to take it the same way. And I certainly agree there is no suggestion the author intended to convey the sort of massive, destructive, earth-shattering events some modern interpreters present. He simply wanted to say that it rained. "Open the windows of heaven" was the culturally appropriate way to convey that meaning.

The flood certainly was a massive,destructive event.
 
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Papias

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It sounds like there are already some places of agreement, such as the idea that the literal description of a solid dome doesn't have to mean that there was literally a solid dome.

Anthony wrote:
Since it happened in pre-historic time,

This seems like another point of agreement. A literal reading places the flood at around 2450 BC, well within historic times. So it is a non-literal reading that is needed to put it in pre-historic time.


and all humanity except Noah and his family was destroyed,

This part too is likely non-literal. There are many reasons that "all humanity" was not destroyed, including the lack of a genetic bottleneck, the large number of alleles in many loci, and so on.


The words "whole world" or "whole earth" do not need to be taken as meaning the entire globe,because......

Right. Another point of agreement.

Papias
 
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gluadys

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The biblical story is a record.

But what kind of a record is it?


How do you determine that the biblical story is not a record of an actual flood?

Because it is told in cosmic terms and there is no record of any actual flood of such dimensions.



Since it happened in pre-historic time,and all humanity except Noah and his family was destroyed,the event would not have been recorded when or around the time when it happened,but would have been passed down by word of mouth.

As Papias points out, as told in Genesis, it happened in historic times. There are archeological records of literate civilizations which go back much further than the apparent time of the flood. One of the evidences that the flood could not have destroyed all but Noah's family is that there is no interruption in the written records of these civilizations, no indication that they were ever destroyed or that these civilizations needed to be rebuilt again.

One does find this for local floods. When early 20th century archeologist Leonard Wooley found Sumerian ruins suddenly stopping on top of a layer of sediment and then found more ruins below 15 feet of flood deposits he wired back to London that he had found Noah's flood. Of course, actually, it was one of many local floods that occurred in that area and this one happened too wipe out a human settlement which was later replaced by another.

This sort of thing should be found all over the world if the flood as described was an actual event.



The words "whole world" or "whole earth" do not need to be taken as meaning the entire globe,because such expressions were sometimes used to mean a vast area or a large amount of people (as when the pharisees said of Jesus: "Look,the whole world has gone after him!"),and the words world or earth were sometimes used simply to mean "land".

True enough, but then we cannot say that Noah and family were the only survivors in the world. They could be the only survivors in the flooded region while other parts of the world, including other cities and kingdoms continued without disturbance.





What would the evidence of the flood be after thousands of years,and how would you know whether or not there is evidence for it? Scientific presuppositions and models of what the evidence would be are not reliable,as they cannot be confirmed by demonstration,and the evidence would not clearly point to a certain cause anyway.

Flood plain evidence can certainly be confirmed by demonstration since nature gives us such demonstrations on a regular basis.


What historical events are not consistent with the flood,and how do you determine that they exclude the the possibility of a flood?

Depends on whether you envision the flood as global or local and whether you think the human population, in either case, was reduced to those named in the story.

The latter would require a significant genetic bottleneck in humanity in recent times as well as interrupted civilizations archeologically.

If you agree the flood was regional with only regional effects (including how many humans survived), I don't think there is evidence that excludes the possibility of a flood, but then it is also evident that the story as we have received it has been enlarged into something vaster. And there is no evidence of that, and much evidence not consistent with that.





Who says that God worked miracles in removing evidence of the flood? Would it be miraculous for God to restore the earth through natural causes,and for the traces of the flood to gradually? That's just divine providence.

You were the one who rested the case for a flood on God's power over nature. I am just saying such power could not be demonstrated only in causing the flood but also in causing such a massive event to disappear paleontologically, archeologically and genetically and in some cases to be replace by evidence not consistent with a flood. Natural causes would not be able to completely remove evidence of a great flood in so short a time as 4-5 thousand years.

Consider, for example, that we still have worldwide evidence of an asteroid impacting the earth 65 million years ago.





No,but it seems like you are trying to confuse people. Your supposition is a twisted way of thinking that only atheists and evolutionists propose. People who believe the book of Genesis don't suspect that God is confusing them. They don't believe in the biblical stories while at the same time believing the assumptions objections of skeptics. They don't take it for granted that the assumptions and objections of skeptics are right.

Well, you can put me among the believers then, because I also do not believe God is trying to confuse us. And that is why I don't believe the flood was a global event or even a local event with global consequences (such as wiping out all humanity except Noah and family)





What way of presentation do you mean? And how is that an argument against the reality of the flood? To me,it just shows that the pagan cultures preserved,inaccurately,the memory of the great flood. Its not as if a biblical story is must be unhistorical because pagan cultures have similar stories.

Indeed, it could well be that all the nations of the ancient Near East were remembering the same flood and providing each their own version of the story. There are even many interesting parallels among the various stories.

The point is that they all use the same manner of storytelling and none is more or less historical than the others.





It is not always possible to determine from historical and literary evidence whether or not an author intended words to be taken literally,or if he did,if the words should be taken exactly or in the most common meaning.
Scientists who believe in Higgs' field do not think it is like an earthly,solid field,but they do use the word field literally,in the sense of a region or space. Likewise,the dome of ancient cosmology may not have been understood to be a solid dome. Words which are intended literally do not always represent things exactly or in the plainest meaning.

However "field" has a well-established scientific meaning also used in other contexts such as "magnetic field" and "force field". Do we have ancient examples of alternate meanings for dome, vault or firmament? I just caution against assuming an alternate meaning because the literal meaning makes no sense to you personally. I see no reason why a solid structure would not make sense to the writer and his audience.




The flood certainly was a massive,destructive event.

So was the tsunami which afflicted South Asia a few years ago. So were Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Sandy in the U.S.

But they were not so massive as proponents of a literal global biblical flood claim.
 
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pshun2404

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You do realize that most of the water came from a "breaking up of the deep"...in other words from underground...not simple rain from the sky...

When Dr. Walter Brown formerly worked for the U. S. Defense Department, he gathered information which, unknowingly at first, shed light on the possibility of a flood of Noahic proportions. I say once greatly respected because once it sank in just exactly what these data might mean he was never able to get reputable work again in his field…not because he was wrong but because his explanation of the data was unacceptable to the mainstream who had already made up their minds.

Dr. Brown has a Ph.D from MIT in mechanical engineering, and was a Professor Emeritus at the U.S. Air Force Academy at the time. He claimed they had discovered, “…17 strange features on the earth today…which can now be systematically explained as the result of a cataclysmic global flood, whose waters erupted from subterranean chambers with an energy release exceeding 10 billion hydrogen bombs“!

An engineer from the U.S. Defense Department, confirming one of the most ignored details of the flood story? That is, that most of the water came not from above in the atmosphere, but from under the ground? The Bible says that “in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day, were all the fountains of the deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened“. What we have is two geo-physical events or two aspects of one event occurring simultaneously. Could it have been associated with a giant meteor striking the earth? Can you imagine what cataclysmic events would have occurred atmospherically as well as techtonically?

What he seemed to have discovered was, that in one day in the remote past, the earth’s crust may have literally cracked and split, possibly caused by a massive colliding comet or some other cataclysmic force. We heard about some such possibilities in the anthropological studies accumulated in Vielokovsky’s World’s in Collision. It turns out signs of this splitting of the crust wrap all the way around the world, as witnessed by the oceanic ridge and more, which is as Dr. Brown points out is , “like the seam on a baseball.”

According to this theory, for some reason (we believe God caused it), the subterranean waters exploding under great pressure “would have shot up from the broken crust about twenty miles into the atmosphere”, descending everywhere as rain, snow, or ice. The clincher is, that Dr. Brown estimates, that whatever happened that split the earth’s crust, was so powerful, that it caused all major techtonic shifts to occur within “a span of about three hours time“. Therefore, literally “all the fountains“ of the deep actually were broken up, “in the same day“!

Now yes, just a theory, like the Meteor theory of extinction, or uniform gradualism, equally unproven but interesting nonetheless...

That plus the fact that every culture all over the world has some flood story in their history or legends (over 200) makes one think...why? How could most all of them share so many elements on common if it is just a local mythology? That just does not make sense...

Paul

Paul
 
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gluadys

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You do realize that most of the water came from a "breaking up of the deep"...in other words from underground...not simple rain from the sky...

When Dr. Walter Brown formerly worked for the U. S. Defense Department, he gathered information which, unknowingly at first, shed light on the possibility of a flood of Noahic proportions. I say once greatly respected because once it sank in just exactly what these data might mean he was never able to get reputable work again in his field…not because he was wrong but because his explanation of the data was unacceptable to the mainstream who had already made up their minds.

Dr. Brown has a Ph.D from MIT in mechanical engineering, and was a Professor Emeritus at the U.S. Air Force Academy at the time. He claimed they had discovered, “…17 strange features on the earth today…which can now be systematically explained as the result of a cataclysmic global flood, whose waters erupted from subterranean chambers with an energy release exceeding 10 billion hydrogen bombs“!

An engineer from the U.S. Defense Department, confirming one of the most ignored details of the flood story? That is, that most of the water came not from above in the atmosphere, but from under the ground? The Bible says that “in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day, were all the fountains of the deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened“. What we have is two geo-physical events or two aspects of one event occurring simultaneously. Could it have been associated with a giant meteor striking the earth? Can you imagine what cataclysmic events would have occurred atmospherically as well as techtonically?

What he seemed to have discovered was, that in one day in the remote past, the earth’s crust may have literally cracked and split, possibly caused by a massive colliding comet or some other cataclysmic force. We heard about some such possibilities in the anthropological studies accumulated in Vielokovsky’s World’s in Collision. It turns out signs of this splitting of the crust wrap all the way around the world, as witnessed by the oceanic ridge and more, which is as Dr. Brown points out is , “like the seam on a baseball

According to this theory, for some reason (we believe God caused it), the subterranean waters exploding under great pressure “would have shot up from the broken crust about twenty miles into the atmosphere”, descending everywhere as rain, snow, or ice. The clincher is, that Dr. Brown estimates, that whatever happened that split the earth’s crust, was so powerful, that it caused all major techtonic shifts to occur within “a span of about three hours time“. Therefore, literally “all the fountains“ of the deep actually were broken up, “in the same day“!

Now yes, just a theory, like the Meteor theory of extinction, or uniform gradualism, equally unproven but interesting nonetheless...

That plus the fact that every culture all over the world has some flood story in their history or legends (over 200) makes one think...why? How could most all of them share so many elements on common if it is just a local mythology? That just does not make sense...

Paul

Paul

Walter Brown's PhD in mechanical engineering apparently did not include sufficient information about physics, especially thermodynamics. The scenario he proposes would certainly have had global effects. If his estimate of energy equivalent to 10 billion hydrogen bombs is anywhere near correct, the heat so generated would have completely boiled away the ocean, and I wouldn't be surprised if so much heat turned the whole globe into a plastic, molten mass of bubbling lava. Not to mention the poisonous gases and volcanic ash that would pollute the atmosphere and block out sunlight for decades to come. No one, including all ocean creatures and all inhabitants of the ark would have survived.

So where is the evidence than any such thing has occurred? In geology or in scripture?
 
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pshun2404

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The scenario he proposes would certainly have had global effects.

Yes, thats true and no there is no more or less evidence than any other theoretically proposed scenarios, but the point was, in disputing early on in the thread it mentions raining, but it left out the breaking up of the deep...as for your response to his hyperbole (10 Billion Hydrogen bombs) it is equally theoretical...I actually think if something that huge literally happened there would be no more planet
 
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You do realize that most of the water came from a "breaking up of the deep"...in other words from underground...not simple rain from the sky...
Fountains and deeps are Hebrew terms for springs and artesian wells which really do start gushing when there is heavy rain. There is no need to read it as a geological event scripture doesn't mention and there is no geological evidence for.
 
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