Not being honest with myself

[razeontherock]

I can not remember the exact verse but it sais something along the lines of anyone who experiences God and then turns away can never be brought back in. I sometimes wonder if I am subject to this.

Ever hear of the Prodigal Son? (Luke 15) A few finer points of that story:

the Father disgraced himself to RUN to meet his long lost son, upon his return. This in an honor-based society.

When the Son left, he was basically saying to his Father, "I wish you were dead."

Let each of these points sink in a bit. Have you ever done anything that harsh, towards God Himself? I doubt it. And even if you had, He assures us He will look for us fondly, and RUN to meet us upon our return, even though it means disgracing Himself.

Selah (A quote from Psalms, meaning ponder that and let it sink in)

 

[hedrick]

In response to the original question:

The best approach I can think of is to try living as a Christian. Ideally faith comes first, and you live it out. But in reality, faith and action reinforce each other. You obviously have at least the start of faith. I say practice it as you can. Looking at how to live as a Christian at school, work, and with your kids. Normally I'd say look for some service projects, but with your commitments you're probably better off not adding much else.

Also try reading Scripture and prayer, if you can pray, and attending at least some activities at Church, whether a formal service or some other activity.

There's a difficult balance here. I don't advise you to pretend to be something you aren't. Going to church makes sense, but you may not be ready to be the spiritual leader of your family. There's no shame in that.

You should also look carefully at whether the Church of Christ is the right place for you. It may just be that you're not ready to commit, but you could also be in a church that makes demands of a type that aren't appropriate for you. I assume this it the mainstream Church of Christ. It tends to be legalistic, though it's still a valid church. If it's the <cityname> Church of Christ (a.k.a. the Boston CoC movement), then I'm a lot more concerned.

 

[someguy14]

I experience joy, on a regular basis.

Look up humbly and thank God for the joy, the peace the love that you experience.
All goodness comes from God. He desires a personal relationship with each of us.

Read The Word of God, Psalms and Proverbs.
Thank God when you are reminded of The Word.
Proverbs 3:6
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Speak to Him and think about Him.
Ask God to renew a right spirit within you.
Ask God for The Holy Spirit to come inside.
Ask for guidance and help.
Share with God even the littlest of things.
He cares for each of us.
He loves you very much and desires a close relationship with each of us.
May God bless.

 

[SPB1987]

In response to the original question:

The best approach I can think of is to try living as a Christian. Ideally faith comes first, and you live it out. But in reality, faith and action reinforce each other. You obviously have at least the start of faith. I say practice it as you can. Looking at how to live as a Christian at school, work, and with your kids. Normally I'd say look for some service projects, but with your commitments you're probably better off not adding much else.

Also try reading Scripture and prayer, if you can pray, and attending at least some activities at Church, whether a formal service or some other activity.

There's a difficult balance here. I don't advise you to pretend to be something you aren't. Going to church makes sense, but you may not be ready to be the spiritual leader of your family. There's no shame in that.

You should also look carefully at whether the Church of Christ is the right place for you. It may just be that you're not ready to commit, but you could also be in a church that makes demands of a type that aren't appropriate for you. I assume this it the mainstream Church of Christ. It tends to be legalistic, though it's still a valid church. If it's the <cityname> Church of Christ (a.k.a. the Boston CoC movement), then I'm a lot more concerned.

It is just the regular non-denom Church of Christ. I was raised Southern Baptist but do not care much for it. Church of Christ and Southern Baptist are the only types of churches I have ever experienced. We are drawn to Church of Christ for the lack of rock concert type music, no teaching of December 25th as Jesus' birthday, etc. Thanks for your response.

 

[SPB1987]

Ever hear of the Prodigal Son? (Luke 15) A few finer points of that story:

the Father disgraced himself to RUN to meet his long lost son, upon his return. This in an honor-based society.

When the Son left, he was basically saying to his Father, "I wish you were dead."

Let each of these points sink in a bit. Have you ever done anything that harsh, towards God Himself? I doubt it. And even if you had, He assures us He will look for us fondly, and RUN to meet us upon our return, even though it means disgracing Himself.

Selah (A quote from Psalms, meaning ponder that and let it sink in)

Do you feel that the Prodigal Son in this parable was actually someone who turned their back on God? I am unsure as to what to make of my current situation. I appreciate your help and constant responses. It is much easier to discuss such personal matters over a forum than it would be in person.

 

[razeontherock]

Do you feel that the Prodigal Son in this parable was actually someone who turned their back on God?

Let's pull this Parable apart, as it's so crucial for your comment I replied to. In this Parable, the son is a wayward believer, and the Father is God Almighty. God is depicting Himself as acting the way the Father in this story does, towards us, after we have not only abandoned Him, but ruined Him and wished Him dead.

Pretty strong scenario!

 

[golgotha61]

There is a verse that I remember someone quoting me on here that deals with finding God and then leaving him. I can not remember the exact verse but it sais something along the lines of anyone who experiences God and then turns away can never be brought back in. I sometimes wonder if I am subject to this.

I think perhaps this is Hebrews 6:4-7: Hebrews 6:4-7 (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

There are a couple of views of this verse and the interpretations are not without disagreement. I will give you what i believe to be the meaning of the verse and this is from the Ryrie Study Bible.



(3) Others understand the passage to be a warning to genuine believers to urge them on in Christian growth and maturity. To "fall away" is impossible (since, according to this view, true believers are eternally secure), but the phrase is placed in the sentence to strengthen the warning. It is similar to saying something like this to a class of students: "It is impossible for a student, once enrolled in this course, if he turns the clock back [which cannot be done,] to start the course over. Therefore, let all students go on to deeper knowledge." In this view the phrases in Hebrews 6:4-5 are understood to refer to the conversion experience. Notice how the words "enlightened" (Hebrews 10:32), "taste" (Hebrews 2:9), and "partakers" ("share," Hebrews 12:10) are used elsewhere in Hebrews of genuine experiences.
Ryrie Study Bible.

The reason I think this is the meaning is because I don't believe one can believe and become a Christian and then for whatever reason, loose their salvation. One of the verses that teaches this is: John 10:25-29 (ASV)
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.



In verse 29, Christ assures the believer that no one can take him from Christ. This is all inclusive so that there is absolutely no person or entity can take the believer from Christ's hand.

 

[aiki]

Well comparing God to something like bravery, gravity, etc does not work for me. I experience gravity, joy, bravery, etc on a regular basis.

I experience God on a regular basis, too. I experience something of His grandeur and majesty in the mountains, and sunsets, and vast expanses of stars overhead at night; I see His ingenuity and knowledge in the intricacy and complexity of the human DNA, in the careful balancing of the universe for life, and in the enormous variety of living things with which He has populated the Earth; I see His love of beauty in the flowers of the field, in my wife, in the colors, shapes and movement of the inhabitants of a coral reef; I see God's power in the supernova and the hurricane - and so on.

Most of all, I feel God's presence with me, His Spirit urging me to righteousness, and love, and holiness; I see His countless answers to my prayers, His constant and often astonishing provision for my need; I benefit daily from God's illuminating influence regarding the truth about Himself, myself, my relationship to Him, and the world around me; and I am impressed every day with a deep sense of my utter dependence upon Him.

THere was a time, though, when I felt as you do. God seemed a million miles away; He was just a concept rather than a living reality. The remedy for this was asking God to make Himself real to me. It was a request that came from the absolute core of my being - and God answered (Boy, did He answer!).

Matthew 7:7-8
7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

I would be careful not to put God in a box concerning how He will answer your prayer(s). The way in which God made Himself real to me was not what I was expecting - at all.

I can be sure that I am experiencing these things but I can not be sure that I am or have ever experienced these things.

I'm not sure I follow the distinction you're making here...

I would love to call myself a Christian, but refrain from doing so anymore because I have such a hard time with faith or believing at all.

Well, let me ask you some questions:

1. Where did everything come from?
2. Why is there something rather than nothing?
3. Why do you exist?

Selah.

 

[SPB1987]

I experience God on a regular basis, too. I experience something of His grandeur and majesty in the mountains, and sunsets, and vast expanses of stars overhead at night; I see His ingenuity and knowledge in the intricacy and complexity of the human DNA, in the careful balancing of the universe for life, and in the enormous variety of living things with which He has populated the Earth; I see His love of beauty in the flowers of the field, in my wife, in the colors, shapes and movement of the inhabitants of a coral reef; I see God's power in the supernova and the hurricane - and so on.

Most of all, I feel God's presence with me, His Spirit urging me to righteousness, and love, and holiness; I see His countless answers to my prayers, His constant and often astonishing provision for my need; I benefit daily from God's illuminating influence regarding the truth about Himself, myself, my relationship to Him, and the world around me; and I am impressed every day with a deep sense of my utter dependence upon Him.

THere was a time, though, when I felt as you do. God seemed a million miles away; He was just a concept rather than a living reality. The remedy for this was asking God to make Himself real to me. It was a request that came from the absolute core of my being - and God answered (Boy, did He answer!).

Matthew 7:7-8
7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

I would be careful not to put God in a box concerning how He will answer your prayer(s). The way in which God made Himself real to me was not what I was expecting - at all.



I'm not sure I follow the distinction you're making here...



Well, let me ask you some questions:

1. Where did everything come from?
2. Why is there something rather than nothing?
3. Why do you exist?

Selah.

I meant that I can be sure that I am experiencing joy, happiness, gravity, bravery etc but I can not be sure that I have ever experienced God. Sorry for the original poor and confusing wording, it was not intended to read like that, lol.

Now onto your questions:

1. I would like to think that everything has come from God. However, I think the question "Who created God?" carries a lot of weight as well. This might be because I am lacking a fundamental understanding of God's nature, I am obviously willing to admit this is likely.

2. This is a question that I can not answer for certain. Does the Bible ever explicitly state why God decided to create humans?

3. Not sure how to answer this question.

 

[SPB1987]

I think perhaps this is Hebrews 6:4-7: Hebrews 6:4-7 (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

There are a couple of views of this verse and the interpretations are not without disagreement. I will give you what i believe to be the meaning of the verse and this is from the Ryrie Study Bible.



(3) Others understand the passage to be a warning to genuine believers to urge them on in Christian growth and maturity. To "fall away" is impossible (since, according to this view, true believers are eternally secure), but the phrase is placed in the sentence to strengthen the warning. It is similar to saying something like this to a class of students: "It is impossible for a student, once enrolled in this course, if he turns the clock back [which cannot be done,] to start the course over. Therefore, let all students go on to deeper knowledge." In this view the phrases in Hebrews 6:4-5 are understood to refer to the conversion experience. Notice how the words "enlightened" (Hebrews 10:32), "taste" (Hebrews 2:9), and "partakers" ("share," Hebrews 12:10) are used elsewhere in Hebrews of genuine experiences.
Ryrie Study Bible.

The reason I think this is the meaning is because I don't believe one can believe and become a Christian and then for whatever reason, loose their salvation. One of the verses that teaches this is: John 10:25-29 (ASV)
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.



In verse 29, Christ assures the believer that no one can take him from Christ. This is all inclusive so that there is absolutely no person or entity can take the believer from Christ's hand.

That is exactly the verse I was referring to. Thanks for your wonderful post. I have a Baptist background and that perspective sounds a lot like "Once Saved Always Saved". If this is the case, do we lose our free will upon becoming Christians?

 

[SPB1987]

Let's pull this Parable apart, as it's so crucial for your comment I replied to. In this Parable, the son is a wayward believer, and the Father is God Almighty. God is depicting Himself as acting the way the Father in this story does, towards us, after we have not only abandoned Him, but ruined Him and wished Him dead.

Pretty strong scenario!

That is what I thought this parable may have been conveying. So do you feel it is possible to be saved and then fall away and lose that salvation? I am familiar with the "Once Saved Always Saved" doctrine and am curious as to your take on this. You also attend a Church of Christ?

 

[razeontherock]

I meant that I can be sure that I am experiencing joy, happiness, gravity, bravery etc but I can not be sure that I have ever experienced God.

Honesty points! I encourage you to ask G-d for this. Directly. (And be sure to ask Him to be Merciful about it )

Now onto your questions:

1. I think the question "Who created God?" carries a lot of weight as well. This might be because I am lacking a fundamental understanding of God's nature, I am obviously willing to admit this is likely.

By definition, God has no Creator. He is Eternal. This is a BIG concept! This may well be your path into actual worship.

 

[razeontherock]

That is what I thought this parable may have been conveying. So do you feel it is possible to be saved and then fall away and lose that salvation? I am familiar with the "Once Saved Always Saved" doctrine and am curious as to your take on this. You also attend a Church of Christ?

I have only once been to a CoC, and am really not too sure how their teachings may differ, if they do.

OSAS? I think trying to put the infinite God into our own terms, is a mistake. I understand the Baptist take on this. I think it's a little over-simplified, but where they're good, is with assurance. You have every reason to have assurance right now, and all the verses that give it to you are GOOD. Valid.

"No weapon formed against you shall prosper." Earnestly contend for the Faith once delivered to the Saints, Brother.

 

[SPB1987]

Honesty points! I encourage you to ask G-d for this. Directly. (And be sure to ask Him to be Merciful about it )



By definition, God has no Creator. He is Eternal. This is a BIG concept! This may well be your path into actual worship.

Getting past the God is eternal concept will be a major step for me. I have never been able to understand why the universe needs a creator but God does not. What do you mean by my path into actual worship?

 

[razeontherock]

Getting past the God is eternal concept will be a major step for me.

It is for everyone

I have never been able to understand why the universe needs a creator

It's here. It HAS a Creator. The only questions are, how did it come about, and why? The how, we don't know so much. And the way we conceptualize "the Creator," let's just say the human trait of closure is not our friend here!

but God does not. [Need a creator]

This is part of the definition. For all we don't know, if you're considering something created, that's not G-d.

What do you mean by my path into actual worship?

What is worship, to you?

 

[bling]

Getting past the God is eternal concept will be a major step for me. I have never been able to understand why the universe needs a creator but God does not. What do you mean by my path into actual worship?

Eternity baffles the greatest minds, but since something cannot come from nothing, something has always existed (was not created). If one says matter/energy has always existed, then you have to have unintelligence producing intelligence since this universe has intelligence even if it is only in human minds. Randomness does not migrate toward order but does migrate toward greater randomness (entropy). It is no harder to rationalize eternal matter and energy than it is to rationalize eternal intelligence.

We also have the observation: “The more we know the more we realize we do not know”. This would mean the universe is virtually infinitely complex requiring an infinitely intelligent designer to put it together. (If were simple there could be a random chance of it happening).

 

[aiki]

I meant that I can be sure that I am experiencing joy, happiness, gravity, bravery etc but I can not be sure that I have ever experienced God. Sorry for the original poor and confusing wording, it was not intended to read like that, lol.

Hey, no problem. It's my experience that when God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit of the Creator of the Universe, comes to live within you at the moment of conversion as the Bible says, you know it. God's presence within a person is unmistakeable. How could it be otherwise?

1. I would like to think that everything has come from God. However, I think the question "Who created God?" carries a lot of weight as well. This might be because I am lacking a fundamental understanding of God's nature, I am obviously willing to admit this is likely.

Asking who created God suggests something about how you frame the idea of God in your thinking. For the Christian philosopher, and for one who is aware of how God is represented in the Bible, the thought that God is a created thing - like the universe and all that is within it - is seriously in error. Created things are contingent things. That is, they are caused: they rely upon a cause to effect their existence. God cannot fall within this realm of things and still be God, however. If God is created, then whoever created Him is God and we ought to worship and serve that Being. The Christian notion of God, though, entails that God exists non-contingently - He is without cause - and that this is true as a necessity of His own nature. Just as a circle, by definition, by the necessity of its own nature, has no right angles, God, by definition, has no created beginning.

2. This is a question that I can not answer for certain. Does the Bible ever explicitly state why God decided to create humans?

Yes. The ultimate purpose for which all of humanity exists is to bring glory to God.

Psalms 86:9-10
9 All nations whom You have made Shall come and worship before You, O Lord, And shall glorify Your name.
10 For You are great, and do wondrous things; You alone are God.

1 Corinthians 10:31
31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Matthew 5:16
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

3. Not sure how to answer this question.

Well, what are the alternatives? On one hand, there is God who created you for a purpose. On the other, there is no purpose for your being whatsoever. You are just a random accident of the mindless, natural processes funtioning in the world. So, what does your deepest gut-feeling tell you? Do you matter? Or are you just a random, microscopic blip on the vast screen of the universe?

Selah.

 

[SPB1987]

It is for everyone



It's here. It HAS a Creator. The only questions are, how did it come about, and why? The how, we don't know so much. And the way we conceptualize "the Creator," let's just say the human trait of closure is not our friend here!

but God does not. [Need a creator]

This is part of the definition. For all we don't know, if you're considering something created, that's not G-d.



What is worship, to you?

Worship would be complete and total willing devotion to a person or entity. That would be how I would define it. This is basically what God commands of us in the Bible?

 

[SPB1987]

Eternity baffles the greatest minds, but since something cannot come from nothing, something has always existed (was not created). If one says matter/energy has always existed, then you have to have unintelligence producing intelligence since this universe has intelligence even if it is only in human minds. Randomness does not migrate toward order but does migrate toward greater randomness (entropy). It is no harder to rationalize eternal matter and energy than it is to rationalize eternal intelligence.

We also have the observation: &#8220;The more we know the more we realize we do not know&#8221;. This would mean the universe is virtually infinitely complex requiring an infinitely intelligent designer to put it together. (If were simple there could be a random chance of it happening).

So you feel that it is impossible for intelligence to come to be through billions of years of evolutionary processes? This is an interesting question to ponder upon. I do have difficulty with the idea of an eternal intelligence that has always existed. Time may possibly be immaterial to God and thus not something that we as humans can full understand. We were discussing this in a Sunday school class one morning. He basically drew a diagram of a talking apple living inside a box. This apple's understanding of the world was confined to how he was able to see things from inside this box. He drew another talking apple that was living outside of this box and how it's understanding of the world was greater due to not being confined by the box. It was a pretty clever way of illustrating our impossibility of fully understanding the concept of time in relation to God. He said he got the idea for this from Flatland which was written by Edwin Abbott Abbott in 1884.

 

[razeontherock]

Worship would be complete and total willing devotion to a person or entity. That would be how I would define it. This is basically what God commands of us in the Bible?

Ok, you certainly address an aspect of the word that is valid! In terms of our whole life. I was referring more to a temporary state of being more immersed in His Presence, which has wonderful advantages. (And a possible path into that state to be focusing on His eternal Godhead, as uncreated, self-sufficient)